Here are the numbers:

Plasma + GC:

3+ Hits is 69%

4 Hits is 31%

Average is 3 hits

So it is not amazing. Which is why you need Jonus to help out or run Proton Torps.

Plasma + Jonus + GC:

3+ Hits is 89%

4 Hits is 66%

Average is 3.5 hits

I tried my above squad only once so far. It was against a newer player. He ran Poe, Ello (regen) and another T70 all with integrated. He made the mistake of having 1 ship in range of all my bombers. I basically removed one of his ships per turn.

It seems like 6 torps is the limit with Gamma Vets/Jonus when squad building. I would prefer to volley 4 of them in the first round of combat so that's why I think Jonus should have a PT. In most matchups he should be able to survive one round of combat at range 3.

I don't get the numbers on the Plasma Torp. You have it that the lowest hits you will get is 3? Surely you can crap out on your dice. I would think the lowest number of hits would be 1. I mean, averages are higher, but you still have decent chances of crapping out, even with re-rolls. I have been there.

Has anyone thought of Deadeye Dengar with Recon Specialist, GC, and R4 Agromech? You can fire a torp at someone and expect good results....and then save the last Focus for firing a 2nd torpedo in the same round! OK....maybe not the most cost effective, but it sounds really fun.

Does anyone know about timing and Advance Cloaking Device? I don't think it's the case, but it would be hysterical if Dengar got to fire before you re-cloaked.

This makes me laugh so very much.

----

One other, incredibly silly loadout is the S.S **** Soontir

Scout (25)
Intimidation (2)
Intelligence Agent (1)
R5-p8 (3)
Feedback (2)
Anti-pursuit laser (2)
[35]

Heychadwick, what could you change to get Wired on that Jonus Fleet Officer build? It's only a point, and would give him more defense when he used Fleet Officer.

Here are the numbers:

Plasma + GC:

3+ Hits is 69%

4 Hits is 31%

Average is 3 hits

So it is not amazing. Which is why you need Jonus to help out or run Proton Torps.

Plasma + Jonus + GC:

3+ Hits is 89%

4 Hits is 66%

Average is 3.5 hits

I tried my above squad only once so far. It was against a newer player. He ran Poe, Ello (regen) and another T70 all with integrated. He made the mistake of having 1 ship in range of all my bombers. I basically removed one of his ships per turn.

It seems like 6 torps is the limit with Gamma Vets/Jonus when squad building. I would prefer to volley 4 of them in the first round of combat so that's why I think Jonus should have a PT. In most matchups he should be able to survive one round of combat at range 3.

I don't get the numbers on the Plasma Torp. You have it that the lowest hits you will get is 3? Surely you can crap out on your dice. I would think the lowest number of hits would be 1. I mean, averages are higher, but you still have decent chances of crapping out, even with re-rolls. I have been there.

The percentages aren't cumulative. The chance to get 3+ hits is the combined chance of both three and four hits. 4 hits is the percentage to get just four hits. So, the chance in the first to get less than 3 hits is 31%. With Jonus you only get less than 3 hits 11% of the time.

Here are the numbers:

Plasma + GC:

3+ Hits is 69%

4 Hits is 31%

Average is 3 hits

So it is not amazing. Which is why you need Jonus to help out or run Proton Torps.

Plasma + Jonus + GC:

3+ Hits is 89%

4 Hits is 66%

Average is 3.5 hits

I tried my above squad only once so far. It was against a newer player. He ran Poe, Ello (regen) and another T70 all with integrated. He made the mistake of having 1 ship in range of all my bombers. I basically removed one of his ships per turn.

It seems like 6 torps is the limit with Gamma Vets/Jonus when squad building. I would prefer to volley 4 of them in the first round of combat so that's why I think Jonus should have a PT. In most matchups he should be able to survive one round of combat at range 3.

I don't get the numbers on the Plasma Torp. You have it that the lowest hits you will get is 3? Surely you can crap out on your dice. I would think the lowest number of hits would be 1. I mean, averages are higher, but you still have decent chances of crapping out, even with re-rolls. I have been there.

Has anyone thought of Deadeye Dengar with Recon Specialist, GC, and R4 Agromech? You can fire a torp at someone and expect good results....and then save the last Focus for firing a 2nd torpedo in the same round! OK....maybe not the most cost effective, but it sounds really fun.

Does anyone know about timing and Advance Cloaking Device? I don't think it's the case, but it would be hysterical if Dengar got to fire before you re-cloaked.

I should have explained what the numbers mean. I only showed the percent chance you have to score 3 hits OR 4 hits (3+) and percent chance to score exactly 4 hits.

The full breakdown for just Plasma and GC is as follows:

% chance to get exactly:

0 hits - 0%

1 hit - 6.25%

2 hits - 25%

3 hits - 37.5%

4 hits - 31.25%

The full breakdown for just Plasma and GC and Jonus is as follows:

% chance to get exactly:

0 hits - 0%

1 hit - 1.56%

2 hits - 9.38%

3 hits - 23.4%

4 hits - 65.6%

The above is only the number of hits you will roll on 4 dice with various mods. It doesn't take into account the extra damage the Plasmas do if the defender still has shields. So against fresh B-Wings, Big Ships etc. you are effectively getting up to 5 hits. It also gives some insurance against bad rolls.

Thanks for breaking the numbers down for me. I was a lowly Fine Arts major. Statistics was one of those things that made my head spin and made me happy it wasn't anywhere near a requirement.

Heychadwick, what could you change to get Wired on that Jonus Fleet Officer build? It's only a point, and would give him more defense when he used Fleet Officer.

Oh, easy. I'd drop one Plasma Torp to a Flechette Torpedo. It drops the red dice to only 3, but it does give a Stress to almost anyone. With Jonus it still makes the chance of damage decent. It adds control to the list to set up turn 2. See Soontir in a list? Fire the FP at him and the others at something else. Next turn switch targets as Soontir will be a lot easier to find. Also works on Brobots. Most ships don't like stress, to be honest.

Thanks for breaking the numbers down for me. I was a lowly Fine Arts major. Statistics was one of those things that made my head spin and made me happy it wasn't anywhere near a requirement.

Heychadwick, what could you change to get Wired on that Jonus Fleet Officer build? It's only a point, and would give him more defense when he used Fleet Officer.

Oh, easy. I'd drop one Plasma Torp to a Flechette Torpedo. It drops the red dice to only 3, but it does give a Stress to almost anyone. With Jonus it still makes the chance of damage decent. It adds control to the list to set up turn 2. See Soontir in a list? Fire the FP at him and the others at something else. Next turn switch targets as Soontir will be a lot easier to find. Also works on Brobots. Most ships don't like stress, to be honest.

I didn't crunch any of those numbers myself. Electrical Engineers are a lazy bunch, I just copy and pasted the results

From this awesome probability calculator by IronWardog:

http://xwingcalculator.x10host.com/diceuil.html

Thinking a bit more about it, I do prefer the 3 JM5ks to the 4 Bombers:

-PS3 is almost as good as PS5 in the current meta

-JM5ks are totally independent

-JM5ks are tankier

-JM5ks have more accurate ordnance

-JM5ks will be much better once all the ordnance is gone

-JM5ks are much better blockers

The downside is that they are large bases. You will only be able to get 1 torp/pass. You also have to buy 3 of them...

Thinking a bit more about it, I do prefer the 3 JM5ks to the 4 Bombers:

-PS3 is almost as good as PS5 in the current meta

-JM5ks are totally independent

-JM5ks are tankier

-JM5ks have more accurate ordnance

-JM5ks will be much better once all the ordnance is gone

-JM5ks are much better blockers

The downside is that they are large bases. You will only be able to get 1 torp/pass. You also have to buy 3 of them...

Yeah, it's not really even a question, imo. I mean I like that the idea of trying to make the bombers work, but I don't think the small base is really much of an advantage in getting multiple shots (especially as the arc is smaller). Meanwhile, while the Jumpmaster passes by it is still getting shots while repositioning, not to mention it has a much better dial to do so. Ironically, what the bomber list will be better at is tackling PS3 jumpmasters!

Thinking a bit more about it, I do prefer the 3 JM5ks to the 4 Bombers:

-PS3 is almost as good as PS5 in the current meta

-JM5ks are totally independent

-JM5ks are tankier

-JM5ks have more accurate ordnance

-JM5ks will be much better once all the ordnance is gone

-JM5ks are much better blockers

The downside is that they are large bases. You will only be able to get 1 torp/pass. You also have to buy 3 of them...

I'm with you. The main weakness I'm seeing is the large base, simply because their offense is so action-dependent that getting blocked is almost as bad as landing on an asteroid. I need to get it on the table, but I could see some squads really be able to exploit this by good use of asteroids and debris fields to attack from angles that make it very hard for the JMs to draw many arcs on important targets without losing actions.

I think I'd still want to do 4 Tie Bombers w/ Homing Missiles and EM. If I want PS, I go for Gamma Squadron. If I want Seismic Charges, I go with Scimitar. I'm leaning more towards Scimitar with Long Range Sensors because those bombs are so sweet. LRS works similar to the Deadeye and R4, but without the surprise of who you are shooting at.

Getting 4 shots with Homing Missile is pretty brutal for the first round.

Thanks for the probability calculator. I need to use my phone due to work firewalls.

I think we also have the perfect candidate for Intimidation. We have a cheap ship with an ept, crew, barrel roll, lots of health, and a big base.

You can run this for 100pts:

Contracted Scout with Intimidation and Intelligence Agent

Binayre Pirate x6

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Scum%20and%20Villainy&d=v4!s!174:101,-1,-1,40,-1,-1:-1:-1:;115:-1,-1:-1:-1:;115:-1,-1:-1:-1:;115:-1,-1:-1:-1:;115:-1,-1:-1:-1:;115:-1,-1:-1:-1:;115:-1,-1:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron

PS mismatch might be a problem with this list unless you fly as 2 separate groups.

You could swap Pirates for Soldiers to get 5 Zs with 7pts left for upgrades.

I think Dracon posted a few days back about Expert Handling. With the Jumpy's innate barrel roll, you can shed those opposing target locks risk-free. It has an interesting interaction with Manaroo, too: look at positions and ranges, then roll to shed the TL most threatening to the wingmate before handing off all the tokens. *shrug* Just a thought.

The main advantage bombers have over the jumpsters, apart from small bases and +1 ship, is bombs

Won't see much of that unless swarms become vogue; not counting the awesomeness of crackbren ofc (plus whatever zany shuttle we come up with) and whatever other imperial pilot we can send them off with (such as omega leader)

I was running a ptl Tel with Dengar crew, unhinged, title on vassal last night. My musings on jumpy, tel, dengar

Unhinged is an auto include ( if using ptl version) which we all knew. I really want to play the spiky droid but you need to have that green move to right

Tel really needs hull upgrade to make ability viable. But.......

....Tel or dengar really need EU. In which case aside from ps 7 you may as well save points and get scout/ manaroo instead of tel and then you don't need eu to play as a blocker. You could use gonk/ EI but you're offensive output is useless. So tel is not out but not convincing

I'm still not sold on dengar as pilot. The major benefit of a turret is being able to stay out of arc and still shoot. If I plan on building his ability into my play style I'll have to make certain changes. Against aces I'll need to make sure I'm ps11 so I can't be arc dodged ....so thats my ept gone. Then I'll have at best 2 (probably minimally modified) shots against a tokened up ace or 2 shots against multiple ships if not ace. Not counting the pain I'm going to receive

If I think of dengars ability as a deterrent.... That's half my list that is going to be focused fired and unless it's super tanky, manoeuvrable it'll die quickly. With the points cost for dengar it'll be difficult to get a good super tank/ dodger (yv and ig Spring to mind here)

And to put final nail in dengars coffin..... His crew card is amazing and really needs to be in a scum list somewhere

That then leaves you with scout/ manaroo. I don't know what to do with them yet apart from some cheap blockers/ scum style pain bringers as people suggested

I was running a ptl Tel with Dengar crew, unhinged, title on vassal last night. My musings on jumpy, tel, dengar

Unhinged is an auto include ( if using ptl version) which we all knew. I really want to play the spiky droid but you need to have that green move to right

Tel really needs hull upgrade to make ability viable. But.......

....Tel or dengar really need EU. In which case aside from ps 7 you may as well save points and get scout/ manaroo instead of tel and then you don't need eu to play as a blocker. You could use gonk/ EI but you're offensive output is useless. So tel is not out but not convincing

I'm still not sold on dengar as pilot. The major benefit of a turret is being able to stay out of arc and still shoot. If I plan on building his ability into my play style I'll have to make certain changes. Against aces I'll need to make sure I'm ps11 so I can't be arc dodged ....so thats my ept gone. Then I'll have at best 2 (probably minimally modified) shots against a tokened up ace or 2 shots against multiple ships if not ace. Not counting the pain I'm going to receive

If I think of dengars ability as a deterrent.... That's half my list that is going to be focused fired and unless it's super tanky, manoeuvrable it'll die quickly. With the points cost for dengar it'll be difficult to get a good super tank/ dodger (yv and ig Spring to mind here)

And to put final nail in dengars coffin..... His crew card is amazing and really needs to be in a scum list somewhere

That then leaves you with scout/ manaroo. I don't know what to do with them yet apart from some cheap blockers/ scum style pain bringers as people suggested

Interesting analysis. Without having played Dengar yet i can definitely see your concern. A 50+ pt ship behind 9hp/2agi and no special defense (save for glitterstim) is not something i want to joust with against most lists. And i dont think we will see that being successfull, its kind of what you used to see bad Falcon/Decimator players doing. Dengar will be, in my opinion, very much a high skill ship where you have to carefully plan when to be in arc to use his ability because by definition he will get shot doing so. So he's basically a weird kind of giant arc dodger, for better or worse.

The left side can do whatever the hell it wants, but the right sengor's combined with left greens will pull you back into the fight like a jouster (if you elect to shed stress, anyway)

The thing is, Dengar's ability means he does kind of want to joust anyway. Certainly the 'running away whilst firing backwards' that one sees YT-2400s doing all the time is not his style.

Tel Trevura certainly has potential to be annoyingly hard to remove.

In an extreme example:

• Tel Trevura - Punishing One, Push The Limit, Salvaged Astromech, Gonk, Hull Upgrade

He's expensive, but should take some killing......

The left side can do whatever the hell it wants, but the right sengor's combined with left greens will pull you back into the fight like a jouster (if you elect to shed stress, anyway)

The thing is, Dengar's ability means he does kind of want to joust anyway. Certainly the 'running away whilst firing backwards' that one sees YT-2400s doing all the time is not his style.

Tel Trevura certainly has potential to be annoyingly hard to remove.

In an extreme example:

• Tel Trevura - Punishing One, Push The Limit, Salvaged Astromech, Gonk, Hull Upgrade

He's expensive, but should take some killing......

How about:

49 Trevura w/ Determination, Salvaged Astro, Greedo, Hull, Punishing One.

Not too expensive, but very tough, and also hits decently hard with his auto crits from greedo. You could swap the Salvaged astro for R5-P8 to make him even more annoying to shoot at.

You could always fly Dengar like you would a normal fat turret, but then just use his ability when you can. He does get the S-loop and will have people in his arc some of the time. Sure, don't try to joust with him, but surely there are times when his ability will kick in to your favor, right? You cant' dodge everyone all the time.

If someone was only planning on buying one Jumpmaster.....would it be possible to go with a single U-boat in a list? What else would be good?

How about this one:

You could always fly Dengar like you would a normal fat turret, but then just use his ability when you can. He does get the S-loop and will have people in his arc some of the time. Sure, don't try to joust with him, but surely there are times when his ability will kick in to your favor, right? You cant' dodge everyone all the time.

If someone was only planning on buying one Jumpmaster.....would it be possible to go with a single U-boat in a list? What else would be good?

the problem is, he's just not as good as a fat turret. He has no cannon slot like dash/ leebo and no way of mitigating damage like the falcon. And at 45 points vs dash at 48 (with hlc and outrider) he doesn't seem worth it.

a tooled up scout might have some good use but even then its expensive versus a warden squadron k wing

the problem is, he's just not as good as a fat turret. He has no cannon slot like dash/ leebo and no way of mitigating damage like the falcon. And at 45 points vs dash at 48 (with hlc and outrider) he doesn't seem worth it.

I never get when people compare to another ship of another faction. Who cares how it compares to Dash? I want to know if it can work in Scum. How Dash works in Rebels has little impact.

the problem is, he's just not as good as a fat turret. He has no cannon slot like dash/ leebo and no way of mitigating damage like the falcon. And at 45 points vs dash at 48 (with hlc and outrider) he doesn't seem worth it.

I never get when people compare to another ship of another faction. Who cares how it compares to Dash? I want to know if it can work in Scum. How Dash works in Rebels has little impact.

Pretty much everyone who plays competitively or just plays to win cares. Even if Dash is Rebels, you will play against him. This means that, if your Dengar is worse than the enemy Dash, the rest of your list will need to be better than the rest of the enemy list to compensate. So yes, it does matter.

That being said. I don't feel Dengar is worse than Dash, on the contrary. Dengar has PS advantage so PtL Dengar should have no problem keeping Dash in arc. This means you're either trading 2 shots for 1, or 1 shot for 0 (if in donut hole). Either way, Dengar comes out on top.

the problem is, he's just not as good as a fat turret. He has no cannon slot like dash/ leebo and no way of mitigating damage like the falcon. And at 45 points vs dash at 48 (with hlc and outrider) he doesn't seem worth it.

I never get when people compare to another ship of another faction. Who cares how it compares to Dash? I want to know if it can work in Scum. How Dash works in Rebels has little impact.

Pretty much everyone who plays competitively or just plays to win cares. Even if Dash is Rebels, you will play against him. This means that, if your Dengar is worse than the enemy Dash, the rest of your list will need to be better than the rest of the enemy list to compensate. So yes, it does matter.

That being said. I don't feel Dengar is worse than Dash, on the contrary. Dengar has PS advantage so PtL Dengar should have no problem keeping Dash in arc. This means you're either trading 2 shots for 1, or 1 shot for 0 (if in donut hole). Either way, Dengar comes out on top.

Comparing him to Han is more adequate.

but still, both are in bad situation now - TLTs wrecked their butts

the problem is, he's just not as good as a fat turret. He has no cannon slot like dash/ leebo and no way of mitigating damage like the falcon. And at 45 points vs dash at 48 (with hlc and outrider) he doesn't seem worth it.

I never get when people compare to another ship of another faction. Who cares how it compares to Dash? I want to know if it can work in Scum. How Dash works in Rebels has little impact.

Pretty much everyone who plays competitively or just plays to win cares. Even if Dash is Rebels, you will play against him. This means that, if your Dengar is worse than the enemy Dash, the rest of your list will need to be better than the rest of the enemy list to compensate. So yes, it does matter.

That being said. I don't feel Dengar is worse than Dash, on the contrary. Dengar has PS advantage so PtL Dengar should have no problem keeping Dash in arc. This means you're either trading 2 shots for 1, or 1 shot for 0 (if in donut hole). Either way, Dengar comes out on top.

Comparing him to Han is more adequate.

but still, both are in bad situation now - TLTs wrecked their butts

The Barrel Roll might help him out, if flown right. Or with PTL and EU, he can be crazy good to stay in R1.