Okay, the new spec is laid out and uploaded. The original link is still valid in the first post. Feel free to take a look at it to be able to comment or critique it. Thanks in advance.

Would go back to way you had it. Dual saber skill will not work with regular lightsaber talents which means a Jar'Kai character now needs to skills.

Again if that's what you want for your game, but if you want others to use the specialization stay away from changing the system with a new skill or new reflect and Parry. Keep the guidelines within what was already created and add to that instead of changing. Your original tree was getting there

Alright, here's some new talents that are specific to Jar'Kai. Feel free to comment and critique.

Jar'Kai Technique

The character learns the skill Dual Wield and can attack with two lightsabers or melee weapons without penalty. The characteristic of the skill can be determined by the character when learning this talent. Add [sE][sE] due to the difficulty in using two lightsabers.

Jar'Kai Expertise

The character removes [sE] from wielding dual lightsabers/melee weapons.

Jar'Kai Mastery

The character removes [sE][sE] from wielding dual lightsabers/melee weapons.

Why wouldn't I use the good ole regular two weapon combat with it's one upgrade? This seems worse. And then I have to take two more talents to even it out?

Dual Saber Defense

Perform the Dual Saber Defense action; when using hilts of equal size the character's gains +2 Defense and gains Accuracy (1) till end of the round. When using a normal hilt and a shoto hilt, it is +1 Defense and Accuracy (2).

Why not just Defensive Training? i don't understand how dual wielding is supposed to make you more accurate. If anything it would make you less accuate. Hence why you need to be more skilled to use it.

Dual Saber Parry

When hit by a melee attack, suffer 3 strain to reduce damage by 2 plus ranks in Dual Saber Parry.

Dual Saber Parry (Improved)

When parrying a hit that generate [DE] or [TH][TH][TH], may hit attacker once with Lightsaber, Brawl, or Melee weapon (dealing base damage) after original attack resolves.

Dual Saber Parry (Supreme)

If the user did not make a combat check during his previous turn, may suffer 3 strain to use Dual Saber Parry.

Dual Saber Reflect

When hit by a ranged attack, suffer 3 strain to reduce damage by 2 plus ranks in Dual Saber Reflect.

There are already Parry and Reflect talents. These seem like a waste of time. Maybe a higher cost talent that allows you to flip a Destiny point and double the strain cost to gain double the soak for that attack or some such. something to reflect the fact that the wielder is using two lightsabers.

Dual Saber Counterstrike

When an attack misses the character and generates [DE] or [TH][TH], may upgrade next Dual Wield check against attacker during encounter once.

Rising Whirlwind

Perform the Rising Whirlwind maneuver; the character can add as many [FO] as their Force Rating to the roll which costs 2 Strain. Add +1 Defense for every [FP] spent. Rising Whirlwind also attacks two different targets with a single weapon in engaged range.

Twin Strike

As an action, Twin strike attacks a single target in engaged range. For every [AD] the character may recover 3 Strain. The user may commit [FO] up to their Force Rating. For every [FO] committed add +1 Defense.

• Again, there is already a Counterstrike talent. Why a new one if it is going to do the same thing.
• Not caring for Rising Whirlwind. Seems like too much benefit.
• Personally I think the tree needs something like an "Overcome Defense" talent. "For each Force Die commited (up to your maximum) you may reduce your attack pool by that many setback dice." Or is there already a talent like this?
• twin Strike. What does attacking with two lightsabers have to do with regaining strain? And why does it also convey the same benefit as Defensive Stance?

Here's the new skill.

Dual Wield

The character has learned how to utilize two lightsabers or melee weapons in combat. The starting characteristic is Brawn.

A new skill? Why?

If the original changed rising whirlwind to defense and twin strike to the extra attacks and Jar'Kai technique to lowering difficulty then it represents the form very well.

Again adding a new skill and new talents that are for duel welding but exist already even with minor differences is too much change from system. If I am a character and I take Jar'Kai and Ataru they should blend nicely. The way you are proposing I have two forms that don't work together which is not in the forms history that it adds to a jedi's fighting style and enhances their two weapon capabilites.

If the original changed rising whirlwind to defense and twin strike to the extra attacks and Jar'Kai technique to lowering difficulty then it represents the form very well.

Again adding a new skill and new talents that are for duel welding but exist already even with minor differences is too much change from system. If I am a character and I take Jar'Kai and Ataru they should blend nicely. The way you are proposing I have two forms that don't work together which is not in the forms history that it adds to a jedi's fighting style and enhances their two weapon capabilites.

Alright, so I can change it back to regular versions of the talents and just add in set back for Jar'Kai Technique, Expertise, and Mastery. Would that work?

Jar'Kai technique should be spend 2 strain to make your next two weapon attack for brawl, melee, or lightsabers not increase difficulty by one. There shouldn't be any setbacks or anything to it. Use gunslingers talent as model

Would only have 3 Jar'Kai specific talents in the tree. The rest should be talents like reflect, parry, quick draw, improved quidraw, and maybe a grit or toughness, lethal blows, and either quick strike or something. No specializationeed has more than 3 talentse specific to the tree.

If you want something that reduces setback for defense would give a precise aim or two of them in the tree instead of lethal blows. Remember tree should not be the must have tree. Also all lightsaber wielders should have two forms eventually to round them out opposed to one form that gives them everything they need.

Do think lethal blows fits them more then precise aim. Aiming while 2 weapons would be more difficult and not within theme

Something you could use as a talent, that I've just house-ruled:

"A shoto lightsaber in the secondary/off-hand can trade it's Accurate 1 (which doesn't affect the Primary weapon attack) for a Defensive 1 rating."

This provides a minor defensive bonus and explains why many Jedi favored the shoto for the off-hand. Ataru actually mentions the use of 2 shoto sabers, this would provide the Accurate 1 from the primary hand, and the Defensive 1 from the secondary hand. Just something to consider as a low level talent early in a Jar'Kai tree.

I could create a special defensive talent for Jar'Kai. When using two lightsabers of the same hilt type gain Accurate (1) and +2 Defense, but when the second lightsaber is a shoto it then becomes Accurate (2) and +1 Defense.

First, you have to be careful with passive buffs that are always active. They're a sure way to munchkin-ize a spec. Second, wield two sabers makes one less accurate due to coordinating two weapons, so providing a passive bonus solely for wielding two sabers is a bad idea. The reduction in accuracy is already covered by the increase in difficulty from two weapon RAW. A +2 Defense from wielding two sabers is also a bit much. I've been thinking about how to incorporate what we see in canon as Jar'Kai's ability to defend against multiple opponents into your spec, along with the shoto saber's preferred off-hand/secondary status. Below is a suggested talent you might consider, and everyone is free to critique and/or tweak:

Jar'Kai Dual Defense

When wielding a shoto saber in the secondary/off-hand, the shoto trades it's Accurate 1 for a Defensive 1 rating. In addition, while wield two lightsabers, you may take a Jar'Kai Dual Defense action. This action provides +1 rank of Parry and Reflect, and receives an additional +1 Parry when engaged by 2 or more opponents. You may not take any attack action in the turn that you use the Jar'Kai Dual Defense action even if you were to gain multiple actions in a turn.

This is a rough draft of a talent I was mulling over for a Weaponmaster spec I'm toying with at the moment. I think it simulates fairly well how Jar'Kai has some benefits for defense, that are improved when facing multiple opponents. We see in TCW that Ventress is forced back quite a few times when facing two Jedi (usually Anakin and Ahsoka/Kenobi). She tends to forgo attacking and focus more on defense in these instances, and usually manages to hold them off long enough to gain another advantage.

Let me know what you think even if you're not interested in it. I'm still considering it for the spec I'm brewing up.

Thank you everyone for the great advice. I think I have the spec finalized and will meet with everyone's expectation. The new spec is posted and the original link is still valid. I did add in the rules for using Jar'Kai to the first post as well.

TalosX: Thank you for the talent and I switched it out with Parry (Supreme).

Regarding Twin Strike vs. Defensive Stance: I prefer Twin Strike as it is currently written. I did remove the healing of strain.

As always comments and critiques are welcome.

Still think you should go back. Too may Jar'Kai techniques. Only needs one that offers the 2 strain to ignore one difficulty increase for two weapon fighting. It should also remain a 15 or 20 pt talent. 3 talents that are specific to the tree is key if you want to follow FFG's normal model of a tree. If you aren't looking to follow that different story, but feel more will possibly use this tree if it does which is what it sounds like you are trying to do. Anymore isn't needed. Your first draft was better in my opinion. Rising Whirlwind was the only one I agree needed adjusting to Jar'Kai's theme and twin strike not giving strain back and do leaving as a way to do more attacks in a round. Rising Whirlwind as a defensive makes a lot of sense.

2 to 3 lethal blows

2 to 3 parrys

2 to 3 reflects

Quick draw

Improved quick draw

1 to 2 grit (depending on other choices above)

1 to 2 toughness (depending on other choices above)

Jar'Kai technique

Twin strike

Rising Whirlwind as defensive

Dedication

Not at home, but think that covers amount of talents in tree

Still think you should go back. Too may Jar'Kai techniques. Only needs one that offers the 2 strain. 3 talents that are specific to the tree is key if you want to follow FFG's normal model of a tree. Anymore isn't needed. Your first draft was better in my opinion. Rising Whirlwind was the only one I agree needed adjusting to Jar'Kai's theme and twin strike not giving strain back

Okay, I can switch out the other two techniques and that wouldn't be a problem. Any suggestions for replacements?

Just edited my previous post with suggestions on items with amount of times talents showing up based on how many you want of each.

This would require a Jar'Kai to take at least one more form to balance their fighting style. If they are more defensive then they might take Soresu or Shien. If more offensive then Ataru, Shi'Cho, or Makashi. If more trained in the Force with a little defense then Niman

Okay I adjusted it and it's hosted. Original link is the same.

Would have Jar'Kai technique not let you choose a any stat. That is very overpowered. Also again a Jar'Kai jedi would have at least one more form which they could choose depending on the stat they want.

Dual defense isn't needed. Lightsaber defense would fit better. Dual defense is overpowered and complex to add to it.

Would have Jar'Kai technique not let you choose a any stat. That is very overpowered. Also again a Jar'Kai jedi would have at least one more form which they could choose depending on the stat they want.

Dual defense isn't needed. Lightsaber defense would fit better. Dual defense is overpowered and complex to add to it.

The reason behind why it lets you choose the stat is because of the first form taken. You use the stat from the original form in Jar'Kai. That's part of the rules I wrote for the form. Dual Saber Defense is fine since it is a full action and it's the only thing a Jar'Kai can do. It's not a ranked talent like the others. Defensive Stance and Defensive Training both need more than 1 listing on the tree. The 25 XP cost for Jar'Kai Dual Defense makes it even more balanced. It is a talent designed to be used when engaged by multiple opponents.

You have way to many "commit force die" abilities. Several force powers/talents already use committed die as well. If you saturate Jar'Kai with them, you'll have a bunch of abilities that can't be used due to limited force die resources.

- For starters, I'd remove Overcome Defenses, and add Improved Parry in it's place. Improved Parry is used by the majority of Form specs, so it will be a talent that some can skip over, or a talent that a few can pick up without venturing into another lightsaber spec.

- Twin Strike doesn't really make sense for what it does in lore/canon. It is an attack with both weapons at the same time. It shouldn't be adding Defense, it's meant to be an overpowering attack. Also why would I want to wait to hit someone to commit force die, when there's several abilities/powers that I can commit force die whenever I want. It's a really strange mechanic that doesn't fit well with what we've seen. I would change it to something like " Spend 2 Strain and if both attacks successfully hit, add Brawn to damage of both strikes. " It's modeled after Falling Avalanche and carries a risk requiring both attacks to succeed, but the payoff is you're adding Brawn to both attacks. Just a suggestion, I'm sure others might be able to offer something better.

- With the Jar'Kai Technique, I would simply say it "reduces the difficulty of your next lightsaber check to attack with two weapons." You don't need to worry about mentioning characteristics as it would apply to any lightsaber check.

- With Jar'Kai Dual Defense (kinda a moutful, feel free to change the name if you want), I would recommend changing Rising Whirlwind into a melee equivalent of Gunslinger's Spitfire (with a cap on the additional targets of 1, we don't want Ataru muchkin-izing your spec).

Those are my only concerns/suggestions of the current version.

Thanks TalosX for the advice.

I made the changes as requested. A note, Rising Whirlwind was already capped at two targets, but only a single weapon attack is made against each target.

The newest revision is hosted under the original link.

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

Out of the box question: why do signature abilities have to cost destiny points? Most cost 2 DP as a base ability but I think that there might be one that only costs 1DP as the base (not sure which one). Anyway a universal add on form could just be a tree extension with the same footprint as a signature ability.

But I think that shatterpoint should be an actual signature ability and when you attach it to a juyo spec you just call it Vapaad

Any further comments or critiques about the latest revision of the spec tree?

Out of the box question: why do signature abilities have to cost destiny points? Most cost 2 DP as a base ability but I think that there might be one that only costs 1DP as the base (not sure which one). Anyway a universal add on form could just be a tree extension with the same footprint as a signature ability.

But I think that shatterpoint should be an actual signature ability and when you attach it to a juyo spec you just call it Vapaad

Shatterpoint has nothing to do with either Juyo or Vapaad. The only relationship they have is they were all used by Mace Windu. Shatterpoint is a force power, and it's mechanics don't really make sense for a Sig Ability. Now I think that Vapaad itself could fit very well as a Sig Ability, but that's a different conversation.

Any further comments or critiques about the latest revision of the spec tree?

I have nothing further to add at the moment. I think you're spec has come quite a ways since it's first iteration.

While this is thread resurrection, any chance of getting the download link updated?