Liked the way they were before for twin strike. And suggested rising whirlwind similar to wad you you put. Don't think twin strike needed changing though

You could wield 2 blasters before we had the gunslinger spec. By your logic we should not have a gunslinger spec. I feel if we can have a gunslinger spec because 2 blasters is pretty iconic why can't we have a jar kai spec which is just as iconic. And no the spec should not be a signature ability. As that severely limits its use. especially when the signature ability is not last man standing good.

First, comparing the need for a Jar'Kai spec to the need for a Gunslinger spec is highly suspect. Pistols had no dedicated spec prior to Gunslinger, while lightsabers already have 6 specializations focused on them, with at least 1 more coming. You can take any lightsaber spec and dual-wield as per the RAW, and match a gunslinger in overall capability.

Second, while I said Donovan's idea for a Jar'Kai sig ability was interesting, I didn't say Jar'Kai had to be a sig ability. I've said several times that it could be a specialization as well. I don't care how it's presented, as long as it follows the actual Jar'Kai theme. Actual canon shows us that Jar'Kai wasn't anymore effective then single saber when attacking multiple opponents. It's outlined in books. It's displayed in TCW on several occasions. Yet every time someone posts a Jar'Kai homebrewed spec, it's an AoE monster. If you want to create a homebrew Jar'Kai spec that's great at AoE, but in no way keeping to Jar'Kai's theme, that's fine. Simply state that at the beginning, and I'll critique solely on mechanics and not theme.

We should keep in mind that the Seeker sourcebook is in the works, and with no Jar'Kai spec in sight. Since it is tied most closely with Niman and Ataru, that leaves only the Consular sourcebook. Personally, Consular has more canon niches to cover then most of the force careers. So I'm not holding my breath on Jar'Kai ever being an official specialization. If it is, cool it may hopefully end some debates. If not, well I guess we'll be back here debating this again huh!

Sidenote, I still think a Weaponmaster spec in the Warrior book (including Juyo as it's own spec ofcourse) is a viable option. You could have the tree roughly divided between Jar'Kai and single saber combat. This would provide options for both Jar'Kai wielders and those who strive to master a single lightsaber.

When have I ever said anything about it being an AoE monster? I have not. Personally I think the style should have something like spitfire that allows you to hit another target if you have the adv to do so. And maybe hit more if you get a lot of adv. That is not an AoE monster anymore than a gunslinger is.

Wouldn't suggest that since there are attacks on how spitfire works on the other thread.

You could wield 2 blasters before we had the gunslinger spec. By your logic we should not have a gunslinger spec. I feel if we can have a gunslinger spec because 2 blasters is pretty iconic why can't we have a jar kai spec which is just as iconic. And no the spec should not be a signature ability. As that severely limits its use. especially when the signature ability is not last man standing good.

First, comparing the need for a Jar'Kai spec to the need for a Gunslinger spec is highly suspect. Pistols had no dedicated spec prior to Gunslinger, while lightsabers already have 6 specializations focused on them, with at least 1 more coming. You can take any lightsaber spec and dual-wield as per the RAW, and match a gunslinger in overall capability.

Second, while I said Donovan's idea for a Jar'Kai sig ability was interesting, I didn't say Jar'Kai had to be a sig ability. I've said several times that it could be a specialization as well. I don't care how it's presented, as long as it follows the actual Jar'Kai theme. Actual canon shows us that Jar'Kai wasn't anymore effective then single saber when attacking multiple opponents. It's outlined in books. It's displayed in TCW on several occasions. Yet every time someone posts a Jar'Kai homebrewed spec, it's an AoE monster. If you want to create a homebrew Jar'Kai spec that's great at AoE, but in no way keeping to Jar'Kai's theme, that's fine. Simply state that at the beginning, and I'll critique solely on mechanics and not theme.

We should keep in mind that the Seeker sourcebook is in the works, and with no Jar'Kai spec in sight. Since it is tied most closely with Niman and Ataru, that leaves only the Consular sourcebook. Personally, Consular has more canon niches to cover then most of the force careers. So I'm not holding my breath on Jar'Kai ever being an official specialization. If it is, cool it may hopefully end some debates. If not, well I guess we'll be back here debating this again huh!

Sidenote, I still think a Weaponmaster spec in the Warrior book (including Juyo as it's own spec ofcourse) is a viable option. You could have the tree roughly divided between Jar'Kai and single saber combat. This would provide options for both Jar'Kai wielders and those who strive to master a single lightsaber.

When have I ever said anything about it being an AoE monster? I have not. Personally I think the style should have something like spitfire that allows you to hit another target if you have the adv to do so. And maybe hit more if you get a lot of adv. That is not an AoE monster anymore than a gunslinger is.

Wouldn't suggest that since there are attacks on how spitfire works on the other thread.

I would. But then I think the whole whining about a target losing adversary and setbacks for a single shot is silly. Not exactly super powered.

New version of Rising Whirlwind.

Perform the Rising Whirlwind maneuver; the character can add as many [FO] as their Force Rating to the roll that costs 2 Strain. Add +1 Defense for every [FP] committed for all enemies or for every [FP][FP] all enemies gain +1 Difficulty until end of turn. Rising Whirlwind also attacks two different targets with a single blade in engaged range.

[FO] = Force Die

[FP] = Force Point

Twin Strike

As an action, Twin strike attacks a single target in engaged range. Two Weapon rules are used for the attack. For every [AD] the character may recover 1 Strain. The user may commit [FO] up to their Force Rating. For every [FO] committed add +1 Defense.

[AD] = Advantage

I'm still waiting for a comment about the change in the abilities to make them single target for Twin Strike and 2 targets for Rising Whirlwind.

It would help if you cleaned them up by using verbiage that is consistent with other talents in the game. They are really hard to read with comprehension. Especially Rising Whirlwind.

I will say, though, that the character can already recover 1 strain per Advantage on combat checks. So Twin Strike does absolutely nothing for combat checks. Also, why is there a bit about committing of Force Dice on Twin Strike? It's like a talent with two completely separate effects that don't interact with each other at all (even though the first effect is really not an actual effect; it's just the way normal combat rules work—but even then, I just don't see why Twin Strike should grant extra defense...it's supposed to be a high-damage talent, isn't it?).

Also, on Rising Whirlwind, you don't commit Force Points. You spend them (you commit Force Dice , which means you use them to fuel a specific effect and cannot use them for Force checks while they are committed).

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

Well the standard two-weapon combat rules are more then enough to account for dual-wielding sabers. The sig ability could easily be explained as taking dual saber combat to the next level for particularly intense situations. Just a thought.

Problem is a signature ability is a once per session thing which means a jar kai use becomes a once per session use thing. Which in a word is lame.

Why do gunslingers get to use their abilities in every combat and Jar Kai users dont? Lame.

I can understand that sentiment. However, Jar'Kai literally means to wield 2 sabers. So technically as long as you're using two-weapon combat with 2 lightsabers, you're already using Jar'Kai.

EDIT: Also, blaster pistols aren't anywhere near as powerful as lightsabers. Nor can they provide the same kind of defensive bonuses. So comparing dual-lightsabers to dual-pistols isn't really valid.

There are several ridiculous blaster pistols that even without upgrades are much stronger then lightsabers.

Lightsabers aren't as powerful as people think and its far cheaper in both xp and money to make broken blaster pistols then it is to make a lightsaber broken.

Nova Viper, Dragoon etc come to mind immediately.

There are several ridiculous blaster pistols that even without upgrades are much stronger then lightsabers.

Lightsabers aren't as powerful as people think and its far cheaper in both xp and money to make broken blaster pistols then it is to make a lightsaber broken.

Nova Viper, Dragoon etc come to mind immediately.

I think you're under-valuing lightsabers. The Breach quality alone is better then the 2 Pierce and 2 Accurate provided by the Nova Viper. Add in the comparable to higher damage and the ease to get a lightsaber to 1 Crit, and they're rather dangerous weapons. However, I do not discount pistols. I love the Nova Viper, and my technician is saving up and working with our thief to make contacts to purchase one.

My comment on pistols being underpowered was in direct correlation to the Gunslinger's appearance. Before the Gunslinger made its debut, pistols were very lackluster. They were decent only because it was easy to carry one, and keep them as you walk about a lot of planets. However, all the specializations at the time (from Bounty Hunters, Hired Guns, Soldiers, etc) were generalized and didn't favor pistols. So you could inevitably get better results in combat with a carbine, rifle, or bigger gun. These larger weapons did more damage, had better range, and usually had more HP for modding (not even counting auto-fire). So pistols weren't very good back then. The Gunslinger is iconic in the SW universe, but more then that, it was needed to make pistols truly competitive.

While I'm not opposed to a Jar'Kai spec, and I would be interested in FFGs view of it. The simple truth is lightsabers don't need Jar'Kai to be competitive. Simple math actually tells us that Niman and/or Ataru using two-weapons is actually better then wielding a single saber. This is why I said you can't compare the need for Gunslinger, with that of Jar'Kai. Pistols needed a spec to help them be competitive with carbine/rifle weapons. So we see the Gunslinger. Lightsabers already good at dealing out damage thanks to 6 specializations that already focus their combat. add in defensive abilities like Parry and Reflect (to say nothing of the Improved versions), and you have a weapon with unmatched versatility as well as killing power.

I'd disagree Quickstrike, Lethal Blows, Deadly Accuracy, Targeted blow, Anatomy Lessons, Jury Rigged, Point Blank, Soft Spot, True Aim and Hunter all work just as well with Pistols as they do with rifles. Point Blank is actually better with a pistol then a rifle, because of how engaged works. A blaster pistol only needs help being competitive when GMs don't actually enforce the difficulty of walking around town with a blaster rifle. Honestly most of those talents are better then Lightsaber talents, but there are trees within force and destiny that include some of them.

The 10 damage 3 Accuracy Pierce 4 crit 3 nova viper is still 3300 credits cheaper then a basic light saber

The 12 damage 2 Accuracy Pierce 2 crit 3 Dragoon is still 900 credits cheaper then a basic light saber

Parry and Reflect are talents that decrease damage by taking increased strain and unless you have multiple ranks which can be offset by simply setting the weapon to stun. Thats really a non issue. What I find amusing is the concept that breach is so powerful, because most of the time you aren't fighting people with insanely high soak rolls.

For instance your basic lightsaber does 6 damage to a storm trooper with 4 soak. before successes come into play.

The Nova Viper does 10 damage to a storm trooper with 4 soak before successes come into play.

The Dragoon does 10 damage to a storm trooper with 4 soak before successes come into play.

That breach was so helpful...

Now in order to injure say a rancor your lightsaber needs 5 successes to inflict 1 damage,

A Nova Viper needs to inflict 7 successes to inflict 1 damage on a rancor

A Dragoon needs to inflict 7 successes to inflict 1 damage on a rancor

Yay the lightsaber wins right?

Well the guys with blaster pistols aren't engaged with a giant Rancor that does more damage then heallth + soak + parry in a single hit so I wouldn't call it winning.

What it comes down to your lightsaber is only better if your fighting an opponent that does not have parry and a soak total of 7 or better. Unless of course you have a fully modded lightsaber which is hella lot more expensive then either pistol.

See the really bad part is right now blaster pistols are better at fighting an opponent with a lightsaber then someone with a lightsaber, because of how stun damage interacts with reflect and parry. When you use stun damage reflect only reduces the damage slightly because your reducing the damage by 3 + ranks while taking 3 points of strain. So a single rank of reflect does nothing against a blaster pistol set on stun and is only marginally useful as you go up the ranks. (Something that really needs to change)

I'm not even going to go into the advantages of using a slugthrower pistol loaded with cortosis jacketed rounds which would still be cheaper and easier to find then a lightsaber.

So as I have stated above as much as I don't like it a lightsaber is pretty much on par with cost for cost with a decent blaster pistol.

Daeglan,

A gunslinger is limited to using blaster pistols, which generally speaking don't have nearly as much potential for raw damage output that even a basic lightsaber does, as well as blaster pistols not having as many options to boost their damage output without suffering a significant drawback; the blaster actuating module adds damage, but also adds a setback if you're attacking at anything other than short range. Lightsabers have the options of some really nasty crystals in terms of sheer damage output, and it's possible to mix-and-match crystals to have the primary weapon be a damage machine (mephite or krayt dragon pearl) and the secondary use a Lorrdian gemstone for significant defensive boosts, and still be a very powerful weapon for use in two-weapon combat thanks to the Breach 1 quality.

Decorus,

You're taking an extremely high-end pistol that most PCs will probably never see in their lives due to both cost and rarity. In comparison, a basic lightsaber is something that most FaD PCs are going to be able to obtain, with one published adventure having the obtaining of the necessary crystal being the big focus.

As TalosX has noted, prior to Fly Casual using a pistol was very sub-optimal in terms of combat effectiveness, as neither the Gunslinger spec or the Nova Viper existed prior to that book. So Gunslinger was needed to help bring pistols in general up to speed in terms of being a viable combat option in comparison to the blaster carbine and blaster rifle. And there are Ranged (Heavy) weapons that cost far less than the Nova Viper and yet still make that pistol look pathetic in comparison, especially once you factor in attachments, for which the rifle-specific ones generally outshine the pistol-specific ones.

Plus, you're completely ignoring the fact that a basic lightsaber can be modified without needing further attachments to have a base 10 damage and Crit 1, putting them exactly on par with those two very specific pistols and far above just about everything else in the pistol category. And with that Crit 1 and two ranks of Vicious, a lightsaber strike is far more likely to hamper the combat effectiveness of a rancor, taking it down via easily-triggered crits long before those pistols have a chance to push the beast past its wound threshold. Heck, depending on the amount of advantage rolled, it could be entirely possible for the Crit 1/Vicious 2 lightsaber to kill the rancor with a single combat check, something neither of those pistols is capable of matching.

New version of Rising Whirlwind.

Perform the Rising Whirlwind maneuver; the character can add as many [FO] as their Force Rating to the roll that costs 2 Strain. Add +1 Defense for every [FP] committed for all enemies or for every [FP][FP] all enemies gain +1 Difficulty until end of turn. Rising Whirlwind also attacks two different targets with a single blade in engaged range.

[FO] = Force Die

[FP] = Force Point

Twin Strike

As an action, Twin strike attacks a single target in engaged range. Two Weapon rules are used for the attack. For every [AD] the character may recover 1 Strain. The user may commit [FO] up to their Force Rating. For every [FO] committed add +1 Defense.

[AD] = Advantage

I'm still waiting for a comment about the change in the abilities to make them single target for Twin Strike and 2 targets for Rising Whirlwind.

It would help if you cleaned them up by using verbiage that is consistent with other talents in the game. They are really hard to read with comprehension. Especially Rising Whirlwind.

I will say, though, that the character can already recover 1 strain per Advantage on combat checks. So Twin Strike does absolutely nothing for combat checks. Also, why is there a bit about committing of Force Dice on Twin Strike? It's like a talent with two completely separate effects that don't interact with each other at all (even though the first effect is really not an actual effect; it's just the way normal combat rules work—but even then, I just don't see why Twin Strike should grant extra defense...it's supposed to be a high-damage talent, isn't it?).

Also, on Rising Whirlwind, you don't commit Force Points. You spend them (you commit Force Dice , which means you use them to fuel a specific effect and cannot use them for Force checks while they are committed).

I can adjust the verbage to try to be more consistent. Rising Whirlwind allows you to use Force Dice and let's you use the Force Points from it to power specific effects. However, doing so costs 2 Strain. I will change the text of committing FP to spending them.

For Twin Strike, it was way overpowered and didn't fit with the single target attacking of Jar'Kai, so that's why it was changed to a single target only. The recovery of Strain can be a +1 or a +2 for every Advantage. I can remove the defense from it and say add more Vicious to the attack.

I'd disagree Quickstrike, Lethal Blows, Deadly Accuracy, Targeted blow, Anatomy Lessons, Jury Rigged, Point Blank, Soft Spot, True Aim and Hunter all work just as well with Pistols as they do with rifles. Point Blank is actually better with a pistol then a rifle, because of how engaged works. A blaster pistol only needs help being competitive when GMs don't actually enforce the difficulty of walking around town with a blaster rifle. Honestly most of those talents are better then Lightsaber talents, but there are trees within force and destiny that include some of them.

The 10 damage 3 Accuracy Pierce 4 crit 3 nova viper is still 3300 credits cheaper then a basic light saber

The 12 damage 2 Accuracy Pierce 2 crit 3 Dragoon is still 900 credits cheaper then a basic light saber

Parry and Reflect are talents that decrease damage by taking increased strain and unless you have multiple ranks which can be offset by simply setting the weapon to stun. Thats really a non issue. What I find amusing is the concept that breach is so powerful, because most of the time you aren't fighting people with insanely high soak rolls.

For instance your basic lightsaber does 6 damage to a storm trooper with 4 soak. before successes come into play.

The Nova Viper does 10 damage to a storm trooper with 4 soak before successes come into play.

The Dragoon does 10 damage to a storm trooper with 4 soak before successes come into play.

That breach was so helpful...

Now in order to injure say a rancor your lightsaber needs 5 successes to inflict 1 damage,

A Nova Viper needs to inflict 7 successes to inflict 1 damage on a rancor

A Dragoon needs to inflict 7 successes to inflict 1 damage on a rancor

Yay the lightsaber wins right?

Well the guys with blaster pistols aren't engaged with a giant Rancor that does more damage then heallth + soak + parry in a single hit so I wouldn't call it winning.

What it comes down to your lightsaber is only better if your fighting an opponent that does not have parry and a soak total of 7 or better. Unless of course you have a fully modded lightsaber which is hella lot more expensive then either pistol.

See the really bad part is right now blaster pistols are better at fighting an opponent with a lightsaber then someone with a lightsaber, because of how stun damage interacts with reflect and parry. When you use stun damage reflect only reduces the damage slightly because your reducing the damage by 3 + ranks while taking 3 points of strain. So a single rank of reflect does nothing against a blaster pistol set on stun and is only marginally useful as you go up the ranks. (Something that really needs to change)

I'm not even going to go into the advantages of using a slugthrower pistol loaded with cortosis jacketed rounds which would still be cheaper and easier to find then a lightsaber.

So as I have stated above as much as I don't like it a lightsaber is pretty much on par with cost for cost with a decent blaster pistol.

Despite what you've said, all the talents you listed work just as well for a blaster rifle. In fact, the increased damage and range, as well as the increased HP for attachments have blaster rifles easily winning out against pistols prior to gunslinger. Sure your GM should be keeping an eye on what planet you're visiting, and how they'll react to you carrying a rifle around. There are ways to get around this for any character that puts a modicum of thought into it.

I'll be honest, I don't have my books in front of me at the moment. However, unless I'm mis-remembering, the Nova Viper's stats aren't even close to what you posted. Off the top of my head, the Nova Viper is: 7 damage / 2 Accurate / 2 Pierce / 3 Crit.

Hopefully someone will sanity check me, because this is gonna bug me all day.

Regardless you're taking the best pistol in the game, and comparing it to the lowest end lightsaber available. I have plenty more to say, but I've gotta find the Nova Viper's stats. This is one of those annoying things that's gonna sit in the back of my mind all day!

TalosX,

I'm guessing that Decorus is making use of some form of weapon attachment that's been fully modified to the Nova Viper and Dragoon while deliberately ignoring the capabilities of a fully-modified Ilum crystal.

No I pointed out that a fully modded Viper costs less then a basic light saber same thing with a fully modded Dragoon or any other blaster pistol. So comparing a fully modded Ilum crystal to them would be unfair.

I pointed out in there all the talents are just as good for a blaster rifle did you actually read the post?

I also didn't point out how using a lightsaber is going to attract unwanted attention from all the wrong people.

The bottom line remains breach just isn't that good, because 9 times out of 10 you aren't going to get its full effectiveness since most of the things you will be fighting aren't even going to have enough soak to warrant it.

Reflect is essentially junk when its pretty much negated by switching to stun setting.

Gunslinger didn't make much of an improvement to blaster pistols It just made using 2 at once much more useful. Most of the talents that can make a blaster pistol useful are in other trees and are just as good for blaster rifles.

TalosX,

I'm guessing that Decorus is making use of some form of weapon attachment that's been fully modified to the Nova Viper and Dragoon while deliberately ignoring the capabilities of a fully-modified Ilum crystal.

I'd really like to know what attachments fit in the Nova's 2 HP, that adds 3 damage, 1 Accurate, 2 Pierce? I wasn't aware any attachments added Pierce. Interesting, well comparing a fully modded Nova Viper to an unmodded base lightsaber is probably a bit suspect. We've derailed a bit so lets get back on track talking about Jar'Kai. Something you could use as a talent, that I've just house-ruled:

"A shoto lightsaber in the secondary/off-hand can trade it's Accurate 1 (which doesn't affect the Primary weapon attack) for a Defensive 1 rating."

This provides a minor defensive bonus and explains why many Jedi favored the shoto for the off-hand. Ataru actually mentions the use of 2 shoto sabers, this would provide the Accurate 1 from the primary hand, and the Defensive 1 from the secondary hand. Just something to consider as a low level talent early in a Jar'Kai tree.

No I pointed out that a fully modded Viper costs less then a basic light saber same thing with a fully modded Dragoon or any other blaster pistol. So comparing a fully modded Ilum crystal to them would be unfair.

I pointed out in there all the talents are just as good for a blaster rifle did you actually read the post?

I also didn't point out how using a lightsaber is going to attract unwanted attention from all the wrong people.

The bottom line remains breach just isn't that good, because 9 times out of 10 you aren't going to get its full effectiveness since most of the things you will be fighting aren't even going to have enough soak to warrant it.

Reflect is essentially junk when its pretty much negated by switching to stun setting.

Gunslinger didn't make much of an improvement to blaster pistols It just made using 2 at once much more useful. Most of the talents that can make a blaster pistol useful are in other trees and are just as good for blaster rifles.

Okay, this would be great if we were talking about cost effectiveness. We're not though. We're talking about the straight capabilities of pistols vs rifles. As the entire premise of my comment was pistols fell short of rifles using generic talents. I'm not saying pistols were horrible, just not up to par with rifles. Also as Donovan mentioned, the Nova Viper and Dragoon didn't show up until later. I believe these high-end pistols, along with the Gunslinger, were introduced to help bring some much need power to the pistol arena.

When someone like the creator of this thread makes something I wish we could critique the work he has done like the thread had for awhile instead of it always becoming a discussion of whether the specialization, talent or other topic in question is not needed.

Can we assume in the poster's game or table and my table Jar'Kai is needed and critique the specialization tree or the signature ability tree because many of us like myself want one at our table.

I get many of the responses we don't need Jar'Kai. All of you have valid points and if I were gaming at your table I would accept that the form does not have a tree. But I really wanna see the development of this tree even if it's not official and even if I ever am lucky enough to play at other great tables that might not have the tree I have one for my table

When someone like the creator of this thread makes something I wish we could critique the work he has done like the thread had for awhile instead of it always becoming a discussion of whether the specialization, talent or other topic in question is not needed.

Can we assume in the poster's game or table and my table Jar'Kai is needed and critique the specialization tree or the signature ability tree because many of us like myself want one at our table.

I get many of the responses we don't need Jar'Kai. All of you have valid points and if I were gaming at your table I would accept that the form does not have a tree. But I really wanna see the development of this tree even if it's not official and even if I ever am lucky enough to play at other great tables that might not have the tree I have one for my table

Thank you for bringing this back to on topic. *Buys you a beer*

In a very real sense, the discussion about Gunslinger being needed to make twin pistol fighting viable as opposed to "do we really need a full specialization to make twin lightsaber fighting viable?" is related to the main topic.

As was discussed, Gunslinger was created so that PCs wanting to use pistols (especially twin pistols) could do so and be fairly competitive with PCs that favored using weapons out of the Ranged (Heavy) category. Lightsabers don't suffer that problem, as even a basic lightsaber is an incredibly viable combat weapon by itself, and more so as it gets modified, and it often occurs that attempts to create a Jar'Kai spec wind up making an already dangerous combat weapon even more so, often by grabbing talents from other specs in a "hey, this looks cool!" approach. Aside from needing to drop Deadly Accuracy, the last version posted is a lot better, but I'm not convinced that a spec focused exclusively on dual-wielding lightsabers is truly needed. As I noted earlier in the thread, a spec for dual wielding melee weapons with talents that could apply to both Melee weapons and Lightsaber weapons, that I could see as the single-handed melee weapons have fallen a bit behind in comparison to things like the vibro-ax and naturally the lightsaber. Yes, the Marauder in EotE is a thing, but you get more mileage from using a two-hander (like the vibro-ax) than you do with paired vibroblades. Maybe we'll get a dual-wielder melee spec in the eventual Soldier career book, but I think it'd work as well if not better for Warrior.

If anything, I think the fact that there are six different specs based on Lightsaber Forms is there for similar reasons that EotE and AoR had stuff on the Force; the fanbase would have revolted if there wasn't any option to play a Force user in this system prior to Force and Destiny being published. If there weren't any specs in FaD that even hinted at being a Jedi-type with a lightsaber, you'd have a fairly large portion of the game's fanbase rather annoyed that FFG had been teasing Jedi since the early going but never fully delivered.

Sorry if that's not what the OP wants to hear, but it is relevant to the topic at hand.

In a very real sense, the discussion about Gunslinger being needed to make twin pistol fighting viable as opposed to "do we really need a full specialization to make twin lightsaber fighting viable?" is related to the main topic.

As was discussed, Gunslinger was created so that PCs wanting to use pistols (especially twin pistols) could do so and be fairly competitive with PCs that favored using weapons out of the Ranged (Heavy) category. Lightsabers don't suffer that problem, as even a basic lightsaber is an incredibly viable combat weapon by itself, and more so as it gets modified, and it often occurs that attempts to create a Jar'Kai spec wind up making an already dangerous combat weapon even more so, often by grabbing talents from other specs in a "hey, this looks cool!" approach. Aside from needing to drop Deadly Accuracy, the last version posted is a lot better, but I'm not convinced that a spec focused exclusively on dual-wielding lightsabers is truly needed. As I noted earlier in the thread, a spec for dual wielding melee weapons with talents that could apply to both Melee weapons and Lightsaber weapons, that I could see as the single-handed melee weapons have fallen a bit behind in comparison to things like the vibro-ax and naturally the lightsaber. Yes, the Marauder in EotE is a thing, but you get more mileage from using a two-hander (like the vibro-ax) than you do with paired vibroblades. Maybe we'll get a dual-wielder melee spec in the eventual Soldier career book, but I think it'd work as well if not better for Warrior.

If anything, I think the fact that there are six different specs based on Lightsaber Forms is there for similar reasons that EotE and AoR had stuff on the Force; the fanbase would have revolted if there wasn't any option to play a Force user in this system prior to Force and Destiny being published. If there weren't any specs in FaD that even hinted at being a Jedi-type with a lightsaber, you'd have a fairly large portion of the game's fanbase rather annoyed that FFG had been teasing Jedi since the early going but never fully delivered.

Sorry if that's not what the OP wants to hear, but it is relevant to the topic at hand.

Actually, no, it's not relevant. This isn't a thread about whether or not Jar'Kai should exist. This thread is specifically about a specialization tree that I created to be commented and critiqued on. If it pertains to the talents or the layout feel free to add your two credits, but outside of the first post you've made it doesn't belong. Start a new thread that covers whether or not Jar'Kai should have a tree or as a signature ability. This is not the place for it.

Agreed not relevant. Same thing happened when I asked best way to make specialization and critique on my ideas. Never once asked is there a need for the specialization. Never once did I ask if I should or should want something at my table. Then the thread like this one become a debate over how there is no need and why does gunslinger get one and lightsabers don't. For the record way before gunslinger existed I wanted a Jar'Kai specialization.

Unless the Patriot, myself, or someone works for FFG and makes the decisions of what is official and not why can't we on this great forum ask for help in what we want no matter what at our tables? Why do we need to be told don't do that. If you join my game then you get to tell me you don't want it. That's an official invite if you live in New Jersey or New York area. If not then I just want your help in this case with the patriot's specialization which was the same I tried to get help with.

The fact is there were several helpful posts on keeping the spec not over powered and not a must have spec. Then there are so many posts either arguing no need for the spec or others defending the need for it.

I get mentioning your opinion once, but then it takes over and really wish those against it either made a seperate thread to argue no need or just not add to the thread. We are not on strike fighting union versus the employer. We are not lawyers changing aneeds important human right. Just want help creating what we want for our games no matter what others want or think for theirs.

*Edit typed this when Patriot was writing and phone must have not posted, but glad someone is thinking same as me.

TalosX,

I'm guessing that Decorus is making use of some form of weapon attachment that's been fully modified to the Nova Viper and Dragoon while deliberately ignoring the capabilities of a fully-modified Ilum crystal.

I'd really like to know what attachments fit in the Nova's 2 HP, that adds 3 damage, 1 Accurate, 2 Pierce? I wasn't aware any attachments added Pierce. Interesting, well comparing a fully modded Nova Viper to an unmodded base lightsaber is probably a bit suspect. We've derailed a bit so lets get back on track talking about Jar'Kai. Something you could use as a talent, that I've just house-ruled:

"A shoto lightsaber in the secondary/off-hand can trade it's Accurate 1 (which doesn't affect the Primary weapon attack) for a Defensive 1 rating."

This provides a minor defensive bonus and explains why many Jedi favored the shoto for the off-hand. Ataru actually mentions the use of 2 shoto sabers, this would provide the Accurate 1 from the primary hand, and the Defensive 1 from the secondary hand. Just something to consider as a low level talent early in a Jar'Kai tree.

I could create a special defensive talent for Jar'Kai. When using two lightsabers of the same hilt type gain Accurate (1) and +2 Defense, but when the second lightsaber is a shoto it then becomes Accurate (2) and +1 Defense.

Here's an idea I just had. Use the Jar'Kai technique box to introduce Dual Wielded Lightsaber skill that is based upon the stat of the user's choice that is at -1 on the dice?

Alright, here's some new talents that are specific to Jar'Kai. Feel free to comment and critique.

I believe you shouldn't try to invent the wheel. Dual wield adds a new way to do two weapon combat. Should stick with talents that enhance the rules or ability to perform an action within the rules. Creating talents that change the rules make it less of the system. The talents previously you suggested were still within the system.

If you create a talent for dual strike for reflect, parry, etc you won't be able to take two lightsaber forms and have talents work with each other. Also if I drop one lightsaber does that mean I have to go back to using the regular lightsaber skill? Stick with the theme you were going with Rising Whirlwins, Twin strike, and Jar'Kai technique.

Jar'Kai technique allows for 2 strain to not raise the difficulty of two weapon fighting with brawl, melee, or lightsaber attack

I believe you shouldn't try to invent the wheel. Dual wield adds a new way to do two weapon combat. Should stick with talents that enhance the rules or ability to perform an action within the rules. Creating talents that change the rules make it less of the system. The talents previously you suggested were still within the system.

There's minor differences between the single saber and dual wield talents. Mainly it's the cost of doing things like strain and a slight bumping of the positive effects due to the two weapons. Like Dual Saber/Melee Weapon Parry is now 4 Strain but reduces the damage by 3 plus ranks in Dual Saber/Melee Weapon Parry.

Jai'Kar is now split into three talents with the Technique version adding the skill Dual Wield and 2 setback dice. The Expertise and Mastery versions removes a Setback die each, so a Jar'Kai user can use it without penalty.

The biggest complaint so far was that the modified spec didn't accurately reflect the form, so that's why the changes are there.