mouthymerc,

As far as I know, there's no RAW cap to how many Signature Abilities a PC could have beyond their career and how many specs they've purchased. It's just that it's a substantial investment of XP to get both Signature Abilities for your career seeing as how you can only attach one SigAbl to a spec, and any further SigAbl need to be attached to a different spec.

Yeah I know. The cap right now is two being that there is only two for each career by virtue of there being just two for each. My concern is that any "universal" signature ability would be, by virtue of being "universal", a go to or must have ability for any lightsaber jockey. That's why I was thinking that something like a "universal" Jar'Kai signature ability might need some pre-reqs. Just a thought.

I'm really not seeing a need for a talent tree or a signature ability, but that's me.

I actually really like the idea of a few Universal Signature Abilities. It makes sense that a few abilities could be developed to useful across multiple careers. I could see a Jar'Kai Master being a universal sig ability, and Donovan's suggestions are bad.

I also think Vaapad is an excellent candidate for a Sig Ability. It would have the unique requirement that it can only be attached to the Juyo spec tree. Windu said Vaapad was more a mindset then a Form, and Vaapad was actually just a "more complete" version of Juyo. So a Vaapad sig ability that allows it's user to channel their inner darkness for boosted Juyo affects would be pretty interesting. It would also be an accurate representation of Vaapad.

Back to the Jar'Kai issue. Jar'Kai's strengths were that it allowed defense against multiple opponents, and that it allowed it's user to "rapid-fire" attack single opponents to overwhelm their defenses. As I've mentioned, there is zero evidence to support Jar'Kai was particularly effective at attacking multiple opponents. So I'm hesitant about giving Rising Whirlwind a blast effect. While I honestly think this version is more balanced and fair, it doesn't actually fit the Jar'Kai's canon theme. You are however fully within your right as a GM to alter the theme if it makes your games more enjoyable!

I did try to make it balanced. I was using the term Jar'Kai as a catch all for all types of dual wielding lightsabers. Some characters might use the blast and others won't or leave it to the GM to make it fit with what he wants.

Okay, all the comments have gotten me thinking about Rising Whirlwind and Twin Strikes again. I'm not happy with them because people aren't happy with them. Here's my suggestions for making them more like canon says they should be.

Rising Whirlwind

Perform the Rising Whirlwind maneuver; the character can add as many [FO] as their Force Rating to the roll. Add +1 Defense for every [FO] committed. The character may spend [FP][FP] to recover 2 Strain. Rising Whirlwind also attacks two different targets with a single blade.

Twin Strike:

As an action, Twin strike attacks a single target in engaged range. Two Weapon rules are used for the attack. For every [AD][AD], the character may recover 1 Strain. The user may commit [FO] up to their Force Rating. For every [FP][FP], spent add +1 Defense.

[AD]=Advantage

[FO] = Force Dice

[FP] = Force Points

Thoughts?

Since part of the original intent was to make it the equivalent of a D&D3.X prestige class, I'm wondering if a better solution would be to make it akin to a Signature Ability, with the change that it's not restricted to a specific career, it can only be attached to a LS Form spec.

The basic ability would be some means of briefly improving two-weapon combat at the cost of 2 Destiny Points, such as outright negating the difficulty increase from using two-weapon combat for 3 rounds. Add in a couple of Duration Upgrades to extend the bonus to a max of 5 rounds (more than enough for most combats where lightsabers get involved), perhaps a Magnitude Upgrade to allow for an additional hit, a Destiny Upgrade to drop the cost down to 1 Destiny Point. Twin Strike could be used to allow additional hits against adjacent targets similar to Sarlacc Sweep, or just the flat damage bonus that I'd suggested earlier. As for Rising Whirlwind as part of a Signature Ability set-up, that one I'm not sure on, though I'd personally favor something that had more of a defensive focus, such as boosting the user's Melee Defense by +2 while this ability is active?

It'd be far less prone to abuse than a full spec would be, and would be in keeping with the design intent that Jar'kai mastery is an "advanced" ability, and as such while anyone of any Form can use the techniques, it takes dedicated study to really master it.

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

What rating do you assign to Blast? Same as base damage?

Blast 1 (which is why there's no rating - it's kinda interchangeable with 1), as Breach makes Blast 1+successes pretty nasty by itself.

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

But there are lots of instances where those that practiced Jar'Kai didn't use it. Ashoka, Assaj Ventress, Anakin Skywalker, all used single blades on a regular basis as well as twin blades. It was situational.

What rating do you assign to Blast? Same as base damage?

Blast 1 (which is why there's no rating - it's kinda interchangeable with 1), as Breach makes Blast 1+successes pretty nasty by itself.

Sounds reasonable.

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

Well the standard two-weapon combat rules are more then enough to account for dual-wielding sabers. The sig ability could easily be explained as taking dual saber combat to the next level for particularly intense situations. Just a thought.

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

Well the standard two-weapon combat rules are more then enough to account for dual-wielding sabers. The sig ability could easily be explained as taking dual saber combat to the next level for particularly intense situations. Just a thought.

Problem is a signature ability is a once per session thing which means a jar kai use becomes a once per session use thing. Which in a word is lame.

Why do gunslingers get to use their abilities in every combat and Jar Kai users dont? Lame.

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

But there are lots of instances where those that practiced Jar'Kai didn't use it. Ashoka, Assaj Ventress, Anakin Skywalker, all used single blades on a regular basis as well as twin blades. It was situational.

And for a lot of the time, those people could very easily get by with the standard rules on two-weapon combat, only needing to break out the major abilities during the really important fights. Plus, it's amazing how far the Paired attachment from Fly Casual will get you, especially if you're able to spend a maneuver to Aim.

To be completely frank, the closest I'd get to Jar'Kai as a thing in game mechanics is having a Warrior spec that focuses on dual-wielding in melee, with most of the talents focused on being used with Melee weapons, but also viable for Lightsaber weapons as well. This way, you've got your "dual-wielding lightsabers" stuff, but the spec also works just as well for someone that wants to go dual-wielding vibroblades or vibroknives or ryyk blades.

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

But there are lots of instances where those that practiced Jar'Kai didn't use it. Ashoka, Assaj Ventress, Anakin Skywalker, all used single blades on a regular basis as well as twin blades. It was situational.

And for a lot of the time, those people could very easily get by with the standard rules on two-weapon combat, only needing to break out the major abilities during the really important fights.

Plus, it's amazing how far the Paired attachment from Fly Casual will get you, especially if you're able to spend a maneuver to Aim.

and yet gunslingers get to do their thing in every combat. Making jar kai a signature ability greatly limits its use.

I thought Kylas's write-up gave a decent opportunity to use Jar'Kai enough. The ability had an upgrade to use the ability twice per session, for up to 6 rounds each time (with upgrades). I obviously don't play at your table, but how is 2 sets of 6 rounds of combat not enough? Most of the sessions I run and play in go from 3-6 hours, and some don't ever have combat, and at most I've had 3 combat encounters in one session.

I thought Kylas's write-up gave a decent opportunity to use Jar'Kai enough. The ability had an upgrade to use the ability twice per session, for up to 6 rounds each time (with upgrades). I obviously don't play at your table, but how is 2 sets of 6 rounds of combat not enough? Most of the sessions I run and play in go from 3-6 hours, and some don't ever have combat, and at most I've had 3 combat encounters in one session.

Because a gunslinger can do it whenever they want. I see nothing in Jar Kai that is so awesome that it should require 2 destiny points to use.

Well, I guess if you don't like it, don't use it?

I guess you keep missing the part why do gunslingers get to do their thing whenever they want? Why can't Jar Kai users be the same? Nothing in these powers gets anywhere near the level of last man standing power level. Which is where you need to get to to make a signature ability actually make sense.

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

Well the standard two-weapon combat rules are more then enough to account for dual-wielding sabers. The sig ability could easily be explained as taking dual saber combat to the next level for particularly intense situations. Just a thought.

Problem is a signature ability is a once per session thing which means a jar kai use becomes a once per session use thing. Which in a word is lame.

Why do gunslingers get to use their abilities in every combat and Jar Kai users dont? Lame.

I can understand that sentiment. However, Jar'Kai literally means to wield 2 sabers. So technically as long as you're using two-weapon combat with 2 lightsabers, you're already using Jar'Kai.

EDIT: Also, blaster pistols aren't anywhere near as powerful as lightsabers. Nor can they provide the same kind of defensive bonuses. So comparing dual-lightsabers to dual-pistols isn't really valid.

mouthymerc,

As far as I know, there's no RAW cap to how many Signature Abilities a PC could have beyond their career and how many specs they've purchased. It's just that it's a substantial investment of XP to get both Signature Abilities for your career seeing as how you can only attach one SigAbl to a spec, and any further SigAbl need to be attached to a different spec.

Yeah, I think the cap is that you can only pick up one signature ability per specialisation tree. So to get both Guardian Signature Abilities would require you to have two Guardian specialisations (Soresu and Protector for instance, as one of my players is doing now), and have bought the appropriate 25XP talents to "attach" the signature ability to that tree. This means you could theoretically, if there existed more than two signature abilities per career, have as many signature abilities as you have specialisations from your career.

I would not do it as a signature ability. as that would mean you could not use it all the time and a JarKai practitioner would likely do so all the time. So it just not make sense to make it a signature ability. I think a universal spec kinda makes sense.

Well the standard two-weapon combat rules are more then enough to account for dual-wielding sabers. The sig ability could easily be explained as taking dual saber combat to the next level for particularly intense situations. Just a thought.

Problem is a signature ability is a once per session thing which means a jar kai use becomes a once per session use thing. Which in a word is lame.

Why do gunslingers get to use their abilities in every combat and Jar Kai users dont? Lame.

I can understand that sentiment. However, Jar'Kai literally means to wield 2 sabers. So technically as long as you're using two-weapon combat with 2 lightsabers, you're already using Jar'Kai.

You could wield 2 blasters before we had the gunslinger spec. By your logic we should not have a gunslinger spec. I feel if we can have a gunslinger spec because 2 blasters is pretty iconic why can't we have a jar kai spec which is just as iconic. And no the spec should not be a signature ability. As that severely limits its use. especially when the signature ability is not last man standing good.

Agree completely that it should not be a signature ability. I also think the tree in this thread after input isn't overpowered and is not the tree to take for all saber wielders.

With improved reflect, improved parry, deadly accuracy I agree over powered. Without this is a very usable tree. I would say making it universal is only part that would possibly be considered too much and instead would tie it Warrior.

Honestly I think there is a need for two weapon fighting specializations for melee and unarmed. It's a fighting style that is a fantasy iconic style. It's not min maxing for many players, but a style of combat.

mouthymerc,

As far as I know, there's no RAW cap to how many Signature Abilities a PC could have beyond their career and how many specs they've purchased. It's just that it's a substantial investment of XP to get both Signature Abilities for your career seeing as how you can only attach one SigAbl to a spec, and any further SigAbl need to be attached to a different spec.

Yeah I know. The cap right now is two being that there is only two for each career by virtue of there being just two for each. My concern is that any "universal" signature ability would be, by virtue of being "universal", a go to or must have ability for any lightsaber jockey. That's why I was thinking that something like a "universal" Jar'Kai signature ability might need some pre-reqs. Just a thought.

I'm really not seeing a need for a talent tree or a signature ability, but that's me.

I actually really like the idea of a few Universal Signature Abilities. It makes sense that a few abilities could be developed to useful across multiple careers. I could see a Jar'Kai Master being a universal sig ability, and Donovan's suggestions are bad.

I also think Vaapad is an excellent candidate for a Sig Ability. It would have the unique requirement that it can only be attached to the Juyo spec tree. Windu said Vaapad was more a mindset then a Form, and Vaapad was actually just a "more complete" version of Juyo. So a Vaapad sig ability that allows it's user to channel their inner darkness for boosted Juyo affects would be pretty interesting. It would also be an accurate representation of Vaapad.

Back to the Jar'Kai issue. Jar'Kai's strengths were that it allowed defense against multiple opponents, and that it allowed it's user to "rapid-fire" attack single opponents to overwhelm their defenses. As I've mentioned, there is zero evidence to support Jar'Kai was particularly effective at attacking multiple opponents. So I'm hesitant about giving Rising Whirlwind a blast effect. While I honestly think this version is more balanced and fair, it doesn't actually fit the Jar'Kai's canon theme. You are however fully within your right as a GM to alter the theme if it makes your games more enjoyable!

So with that maybe Rising Whirlwind allows the player to ignore their enemies defenses per pip spent and increase their own defense until the beginning of their next turn by one for every pip spent. This would explain the offensive ability to get thru their enemies defense and their ability to up their own defense. And they would cost 2 strain to perform a Rising worldwind manuever to roll their force rating. After rolling they would make an attack action with bonuses to defense or ignoringredients defense or both depending on how many pips rolled.

When fighting someone with little defense they would more often raise their own.

Other option would be to spend a pip to add a boost die per pip to their attack or a pip to add defense to their defense till their next turn.

mouthymerc,

As far as I know, there's no RAW cap to how many Signature Abilities a PC could have beyond their career and how many specs they've purchased. It's just that it's a substantial investment of XP to get both Signature Abilities for your career seeing as how you can only attach one SigAbl to a spec, and any further SigAbl need to be attached to a different spec.

Yeah I know. The cap right now is two being that there is only two for each career by virtue of there being just two for each. My concern is that any "universal" signature ability would be, by virtue of being "universal", a go to or must have ability for any lightsaber jockey. That's why I was thinking that something like a "universal" Jar'Kai signature ability might need some pre-reqs. Just a thought.

I'm really not seeing a need for a talent tree or a signature ability, but that's me.

I actually really like the idea of a few Universal Signature Abilities. It makes sense that a few abilities could be developed to useful across multiple careers. I could see a Jar'Kai Master being a universal sig ability, and Donovan's suggestions are bad.

I also think Vaapad is an excellent candidate for a Sig Ability. It would have the unique requirement that it can only be attached to the Juyo spec tree. Windu said Vaapad was more a mindset then a Form, and Vaapad was actually just a "more complete" version of Juyo. So a Vaapad sig ability that allows it's user to channel their inner darkness for boosted Juyo affects would be pretty interesting. It would also be an accurate representation of Vaapad.

Back to the Jar'Kai issue. Jar'Kai's strengths were that it allowed defense against multiple opponents, and that it allowed it's user to "rapid-fire" attack single opponents to overwhelm their defenses. As I've mentioned, there is zero evidence to support Jar'Kai was particularly effective at attacking multiple opponents. So I'm hesitant about giving Rising Whirlwind a blast effect. While I honestly think this version is more balanced and fair, it doesn't actually fit the Jar'Kai's canon theme. You are however fully within your right as a GM to alter the theme if it makes your games more enjoyable!

So with that maybe Rising Whirlwind allows the player to ignore their enemies defenses per pip spent and increase their own defense until the beginning of their next turn by one for every pip spent. This would explain the offensive ability to get thru their enemies defense and their ability to up their own defense. And they would cost 2 strain to perform a Rising worldwind manuever to roll their force rating. After rolling they would make an attack action with bonuses to defense or ignoringredients defense or both depending on how many pips rolled.

When fighting someone with little defense they would more often raise their own.

Other option would be to spend a pip to add a boost die per pip to their attack or a pip to add defense to their defense till their next turn.

EDIT: N/M I forgot about Breach.

New version of Rising Whirlwind.

Perform the Rising Whirlwind maneuver; the character can add as many [FO] as their Force Rating to the roll that costs 2 Strain. Add +1 Defense for every [FP] committed for all enemies or for every [FP][FP] all enemies gain +1 Difficulty until end of turn. Rising Whirlwind also attacks two different targets with a single blade in engaged range.

[FO] = Force Die

[FP] = Force Point

Twin Strike

As an action, Twin strike attacks a single target in engaged range. Two Weapon rules are used for the attack. For every [AD] the character may recover 1 Strain. The user may commit [FO] up to their Force Rating. For every [FO] committed add +1 Defense.

[AD] = Advantage

You could wield 2 blasters before we had the gunslinger spec. By your logic we should not have a gunslinger spec. I feel if we can have a gunslinger spec because 2 blasters is pretty iconic why can't we have a jar kai spec which is just as iconic. And no the spec should not be a signature ability. As that severely limits its use. especially when the signature ability is not last man standing good.

First, comparing the need for a Jar'Kai spec to the need for a Gunslinger spec is highly suspect. Pistols had no dedicated spec prior to Gunslinger, while lightsabers already have 6 specializations focused on them, with at least 1 more coming. You can take any lightsaber spec and dual-wield as per the RAW, and match a gunslinger in overall capability.

Second, while I said Donovan's idea for a Jar'Kai sig ability was interesting, I didn't say Jar'Kai had to be a sig ability. I've said several times that it could be a specialization as well. I don't care how it's presented, as long as it follows the actual Jar'Kai theme. Actual canon shows us that Jar'Kai wasn't anymore effective then single saber when attacking multiple opponents. It's outlined in books. It's displayed in TCW on several occasions. Yet every time someone posts a Jar'Kai homebrewed spec, it's an AoE monster. If you want to create a homebrew Jar'Kai spec that's great at AoE, but in no way keeping to Jar'Kai's theme, that's fine. Simply state that at the beginning, and I'll critique solely on mechanics and not theme.

We should keep in mind that the Seeker sourcebook is in the works, and with no Jar'Kai spec in sight. Since it is tied most closely with Niman and Ataru, that leaves only the Consular sourcebook. Personally, Consular has more canon niches to cover then most of the force careers. So I'm not holding my breath on Jar'Kai ever being an official specialization. If it is, cool it may hopefully end some debates. If not, well I guess we'll be back here debating this again huh!

Sidenote, I still think a Weaponmaster spec in the Warrior book (including Juyo as it's own spec ofcourse) is a viable option. You could have the tree roughly divided between Jar'Kai and single saber combat. This would provide options for both Jar'Kai wielders and those who strive to master a single lightsaber.

Well, I guess if you don't like it, don't use it?

So for this threads sake of making two types happy please leave the tree up. Gonna try it out and enter in my generator. For those that like signature the use that. Doesn't have to be one unless it's official

You could wield 2 blasters before we had the gunslinger spec. By your logic we should not have a gunslinger spec. I feel if we can have a gunslinger spec because 2 blasters is pretty iconic why can't we have a jar kai spec which is just as iconic. And no the spec should not be a signature ability. As that severely limits its use. especially when the signature ability is not last man standing good.

First, comparing the need for a Jar'Kai spec to the need for a Gunslinger spec is highly suspect. Pistols had no dedicated spec prior to Gunslinger, while lightsabers already have 6 specializations focused on them, with at least 1 more coming. You can take any lightsaber spec and dual-wield as per the RAW, and match a gunslinger in overall capability.

Second, while I said Donovan's idea for a Jar'Kai sig ability was interesting, I didn't say Jar'Kai had to be a sig ability. I've said several times that it could be a specialization as well. I don't care how it's presented, as long as it follows the actual Jar'Kai theme. Actual canon shows us that Jar'Kai wasn't anymore effective then single saber when attacking multiple opponents. It's outlined in books. It's displayed in TCW on several occasions. Yet every time someone posts a Jar'Kai homebrewed spec, it's an AoE monster. If you want to create a homebrew Jar'Kai spec that's great at AoE, but in no way keeping to Jar'Kai's theme, that's fine. Simply state that at the beginning, and I'll critique solely on mechanics and not theme.

We should keep in mind that the Seeker sourcebook is in the works, and with no Jar'Kai spec in sight. Since it is tied most closely with Niman and Ataru, that leaves only the Consular sourcebook. Personally, Consular has more canon niches to cover then most of the force careers. So I'm not holding my breath on Jar'Kai ever being an official specialization. If it is, cool it may hopefully end some debates. If not, well I guess we'll be back here debating this again huh!

Sidenote, I still think a Weaponmaster spec in the Warrior book (including Juyo as it's own spec ofcourse) is a viable option. You could have the tree roughly divided between Jar'Kai and single saber combat. This would provide options for both Jar'Kai wielders and those who strive to master a single lightsaber.

When have I ever said anything about it being an AoE monster? I have not. Personally I think the style should have something like spitfire that allows you to hit another target if you have the adv to do so. And maybe hit more if you get a lot of adv. That is not an AoE monster anymore than a gunslinger is.

New version of Rising Whirlwind.

Perform the Rising Whirlwind maneuver; the character can add as many [FO] as their Force Rating to the roll that costs 2 Strain. Add +1 Defense for every [FP] committed for all enemies or for every [FP][FP] all enemies gain +1 Difficulty until end of turn. Rising Whirlwind also attacks two different targets with a single blade in engaged range.

[FO] = Force Die

[FP] = Force Point

Twin Strike

As an action, Twin strike attacks a single target in engaged range. Two Weapon rules are used for the attack. For every [AD] the character may recover 1 Strain. The user may commit [FO] up to their Force Rating. For every [FO] committed add +1 Defense.

[AD] = Advantage

I'm still waiting for a comment about the change in the abilities to make them single target for Twin Strike and 2 targets for Rising Whirlwind.