I've not looked at the latest revision of the spec, but was just spit-balling an alternate approach that might work better overall.

Can you please leave the non signature version up if you make it a signature version. As a GM I am not using signature abilities till all players have signature abilities available to their players careers. Plus I don't like Jar'Kai as a signature ability.

I've not looked at the latest revision of the spec, but was just spit-balling an alternate approach that might work better overall.

Ahh well please look at the latest version and let me know what you think.

Can you please leave the non signature version up if you make it a signature version. As a GM I am not using signature abilities till all players have signature abilities available to their players careers. Plus I don't like Jar'Kai as a signature ability.

Yeah I can do that. I'm not too keen on making it a signature ability yet because of the lack of them for force users. Maybe in the future I'll do it as a signature ability.

I think the increase in difficulty for twin strike really does balance it. Considering most Jar'Kai would have paired sabers then they would up the difficulty a lot if surrounded, but the advantage cost would be one instead.

I think the increase in difficulty for twin strike really does balance it. Considering most Jar'Kai would have paired sabers then they would up the difficulty a lot if surrounded, but the advantage cost would be one instead.

I like the advantage cost at 2 because it goes off of the first roll. That is what determines how many actual strikes that can be made against more targets. I view it as the extra concentration needed to attack other targets beyond two.

So it's only two advantage and then you get to hit all of them or it's 2 advantage for each one you hit?

I like Dono's suggestion for a sort what is ultimately a universal signature ability. With some limitations, as in this case it would need to be attached to a LS spec, and I'd say you need at least two 25XP talents, preferably not next to each other

Looking at this latest version, I still wonder why I shouldn't take this. It's got deadly accuracy...!!! But at least it's no longer infringing upon Soresu and Shien.

If you want to make Rising Whirlwind more about the defence - as Dono is suggesting - why not make it similar to Defensive Circle or something?

I would take deadly accuracy out since no lightsaber form has it. Instead put a 25 pt defensive talent.

I prefer it as a specialization. Really not a fan of signature abilities until every sinGlen specialization has one in EoE, AoR, and F&D.

So it's only two advantage and then you get to hit all of them or it's 2 advantage for each one you hit?

2 Advantage per hit.

I like Dono's suggestion for a sort what is ultimately a universal signature ability. With some limitations, as in this case it would need to be attached to a LS spec, and I'd say you need at least two 25XP talents, preferably not next to each other

Looking at this latest version, I still wonder why I shouldn't take this. It's got deadly accuracy...!!! But at least it's no longer infringing upon Soresu and Shien.

If you want to make Rising Whirlwind more about the defence - as Dono is suggesting - why not make it similar to Defensive Circle or something?

I'm glad you like the latest revision. It's far more balanced than the prior version. I can make Rising Whirlwind be a choice between Blast 2 or Defense +1 depending upon how many Force Dice are committed. It no longer would use the pips to power it.

I would take deadly accuracy out since no lightsaber form has it. Instead put a 25 pt defensive talent.

I prefer it as a specialization. Really not a fan of signature abilities until every sinGlen specialization has one in EoE, AoR, and F&D.

Okay swapped out Deadly Accuracy and put in Defensive Stance.

I also altered Rising Whirlwind to be a choice between doing damage or doing defense. It reads now as: Perform the Rising Whirlwind maneuver; the character can add as many [FO] as their Force Rating to the roll. For each [FP] used the character adds Blast 2 that hits other targets that are engaged with them if the initial two weapon attack is successful or add +1 Defense for every [FP][FP].

[FO]=Force Dice

[FP]=Force Points

EDIT: I clarified Twin Strike a lot. Here's the new description: As an action, Twin strike enables multiple attacks against targets in engaged range at 1 attack for every [AD] [AD] spent. Each additional two weapon attack beyond the first incurs an additional [DI].

[AD]=Advantage

[DI]=Difficulty

Since part of the original intent was to make it the equivalent of a D&D3.X prestige class, I'm wondering if a better solution would be to make it akin to a Signature Ability, with the change that it's not restricted to a specific career, it can only be attached to a LS Form spec.

Hmmm, a universal signature ability that can only be attached to a lightsaber form? Would there then need to be limits on how many signature abilities one can have for trade off or would the fact that it is a signature ability be enough? And also, if it is the only one, would not any ability that it grants make it a go to signature ability for any lightsaber spec because of its focus?

Personally I think that any character that has multi-specced into more than one lightsaber spec, Niman (since Jar'Kai is related) and Shien and/or Soresu (for their access to Defensive Stance), combined with using two lightsabers is good for showing the amount of dedication it takes to master such ability. One of the downfalls of the Jar'Kai enthusiast is that they tend to forgo other aspects such as Force powers to become so proficient, supposedly. Thus having to multi-spec would show such dedication.

It is possible that we may see a Jar'Kai spec in the Consular book since they are related. Or maybe the Warrior book due to it's focus on combat. If they do one at all. FFG designers may feel that a dedicated Jar'Kai practitioner may be simulated by taking two or more specs as I noted and leave it at that. Maybe as a universal signature lightsaber ability they would attach prerequisites like needing more than one spec so not just anyone could attach it.

I would take deadly accuracy out since no lightsaber form has it. Instead put a 25 pt defensive talent.

I prefer it as a specialization. Really not a fan of signature abilities until every sinGlen specialization has one in EoE, AoR, and F&D.

Okay swapped out Deadly Accuracy and put in Defensive Stance.

I also altered Rising Whirlwind to be a choice between doing damage or doing defense. It reads now as: Perform the Rising Whirlwind maneuver; the character can add as many [FO] as their Force Rating to the roll. For each [FP] used the character adds Blast 2 that hits other targets that are engaged with them if the initial two weapon attack is successful or add +1 Defense for every [FP][FP].

[FO]=Force Dice

[FP]=Force Points

EDIT: I clarified Twin Strike a lot. Here's the new description: As an action, Twin strike enables multiple attacks against targets in engaged range at 1 attack for every [AD] [AD] spent. Each additional two weapon attack beyond the first incurs an additional [DI].

[AD]=Advantage

[DI]=Difficulty

I would allow the Paired modification to lower the advantage cost if they have paired on both weapons as per the paired modification rules. The increase in difficulty per engaged target is enough to make me 2nd guess using it regularly in the first place.

Keep in mind a GM who doesn't want the discount can just make it difficult to acquire the paired modification for lightsabers or even impossible to find. Depending on the time line or how common lightsabers are paired mod can be more difficult to find

Still don't like this as a signature ability unless creating other lightsaber form signature abilities. Having one for two weapon saber characters and not one for non 2 weapon is saying why be a single saber character? Maybe after other books comes out it would make sense, but wouldn't use it as signature until that happened. Especially considering most of my groups only have one two weapon fighter with sabers and sometimes non.

mouthymerc,

As far as I know, there's no RAW cap to how many Signature Abilities a PC could have beyond their career and how many specs they've purchased. It's just that it's a substantial investment of XP to get both Signature Abilities for your career seeing as how you can only attach one SigAbl to a spec, and any further SigAbl need to be attached to a different spec.

mouthymerc,

As far as I know, there's no RAW cap to how many Signature Abilities a PC could have beyond their career and how many specs they've purchased. It's just that it's a substantial investment of XP to get both Signature Abilities for your career seeing as how you can only attach one SigAbl to a spec, and any further SigAbl need to be attached to a different spec.

Yeah I know. The cap right now is two being that there is only two for each career by virtue of there being just two for each. My concern is that any "universal" signature ability would be, by virtue of being "universal", a go to or must have ability for any lightsaber jockey. That's why I was thinking that something like a "universal" Jar'Kai signature ability might need some pre-reqs. Just a thought.

I'm really not seeing a need for a talent tree or a signature ability, but that's me.

Yeah not very fond of them for now. Feel until every player has choices based on their character career, concept, and specializations it's just not worth adding.

Do think there is a need for a talent tree because many two weapon fighters want what gunslinger brought to ranged light.

Honestly I might use Jar'Kai for martial arts or melee weapons and just change name.

Just throwing this out here, but these are the rules I'm using for Jar'Kai in my game for Tomo, our resident sword wielding maniac. We tested it and compared to a tricked out Autofire Bounty Hunter of equal XP it is rather tame. More than that, the heavy XP investiture makes it more for character committed to thematic gameplay rather than min/maxing.

It's set up so that for every lightsaber form to enter into it (it's a signature ability) they have to buy their rank of Dedication (which I thought appropriate) - the only exception is Shii-Cho. Additionally, it focuses on incorporating and explaining the many different descriptions and effects of Rising Whirlwind over the years.

Jar'Kai Signature Ability

Just throwing this out here, but these are the rules I'm using for Jar'Kai in my game for Tomo, our resident sword wielding maniac. We tested it and compared to a tricked out Autofire Bounty Hunter of equal XP it is rather tame. More than that, the heavy XP investiture makes it more for character committed to thematic gameplay rather than min/maxing.

It's set up so that for every lightsaber form to enter into it (it's a signature ability) they have to buy their rank of Dedication (which I thought appropriate) - the only exception is Shii-Cho. Additionally, it focuses on incorporating and explaining the many different descriptions and effects of Rising Whirlwind over the years.

Jar'Kai Signature Ability

What rating do you assign to Blast? Same as base damage?

Speaking of, what did you use to make the first file in the first post to look like it does?

Speaking of, what did you use to make the first file in the first post to look like it does?

Oggdude's GM Tool with the Character Generator. I created a blank character and chose Sentinel as a career then Shadow for the first spec. I purchased Jar'Kai as a second spec.

^ Alright.

As an idea for the "should Jar'Kai be made its own spec or not?" question, here's a thought to chew on (mind you, this might get a little wordy, so bear with me).

When we think of terms like Niman or Soresu, we're thinking 'oh, this is the Jedi/Sith lightsaber form.' So a character using the Niman Disciple as a specialization is a literal practitioner of Form VI as was used by the Jedi and the Sith. A textbook student of the style. Apply as necessary to the other trees. So, again, the background of a character starting with a lightsaber spec is though of as somehow being a practitioner of that supposedly lost fighting style as used by the Jedi/Sith.

So Jar'Kai has that floating problem of not being its own form like the others, as well as kind of being an offshoot of Niman, or maybe it's just a catchall term for any lightsaber user who actively uses two 'sabers in combat, and could be a branch of all the forms with enough practice.

I think the solution may be to broaden the interpretation a little. On page 12 of Keeping the Peace, it talks about possible Guardian backgrounds (I don't think anybody actually reads this part of the books, which is a pity, as it has some interesting ideas). Anyway, the backgrounds kind of present an alternative possibility for the Soresu Defender (which I open to all of the lightsaber specializations): maybe they aren't using the form(s) as the Jedi did, maybe they're just using something very similar . Maybe, because of natural Force-sensitivity, a character has adapted some far-flung sword fighting style to do things in a similar way that [insert Form here] does things, or maybe the school or dojo they learned at shares distant relations to [insert Form here].

So, with that in mind with regards to Jar'Kai, maybe a spec doesn't automatically mean the character is using Jar'Kai as the Jedi did, maybe it means the PC is a natural Force-sensitive who has developed a fighting style that heavily relies on dual-wielding, or maybe they are the product of a culture or school that is both partially Force sensitive and has a fighting style that has dual-wielding as key feature.

TL;DR: Broaden your interpretation of the specialization to include more than just "this is how the Jedi did it."

When I developed this, I was going from the point of that this is anyone that wields dual lightsabers. Hence, why I made it open to all forms.

I think we're just as likely to see a duelist spec with a talent called "Jar'Kai" that allows you to spend strain to ignore the increase difficulty for using two sabers.

mouthymerc,

As far as I know, there's no RAW cap to how many Signature Abilities a PC could have beyond their career and how many specs they've purchased. It's just that it's a substantial investment of XP to get both Signature Abilities for your career seeing as how you can only attach one SigAbl to a spec, and any further SigAbl need to be attached to a different spec.

Yeah I know. The cap right now is two being that there is only two for each career by virtue of there being just two for each. My concern is that any "universal" signature ability would be, by virtue of being "universal", a go to or must have ability for any lightsaber jockey. That's why I was thinking that something like a "universal" Jar'Kai signature ability might need some pre-reqs. Just a thought.

I'm really not seeing a need for a talent tree or a signature ability, but that's me.

I actually really like the idea of a few Universal Signature Abilities. It makes sense that a few abilities could be developed to useful across multiple careers. I could see a Jar'Kai Master being a universal sig ability, and Donovan's suggestions are bad.

I also think Vaapad is an excellent candidate for a Sig Ability. It would have the unique requirement that it can only be attached to the Juyo spec tree. Windu said Vaapad was more a mindset then a Form, and Vaapad was actually just a "more complete" version of Juyo. So a Vaapad sig ability that allows it's user to channel their inner darkness for boosted Juyo affects would be pretty interesting. It would also be an accurate representation of Vaapad.

Back to the Jar'Kai issue. Jar'Kai's strengths were that it allowed defense against multiple opponents, and that it allowed it's user to "rapid-fire" attack single opponents to overwhelm their defenses. As I've mentioned, there is zero evidence to support Jar'Kai was particularly effective at attacking multiple opponents. So I'm hesitant about giving Rising Whirlwind a blast effect. While I honestly think this version is more balanced and fair, it doesn't actually fit the Jar'Kai's canon theme. You are however fully within your right as a GM to alter the theme if it makes your games more enjoyable!