Just asking for a confirmation to a very basic question that has been bothering me for a while.

1- Is there any rule stating the hero players must place their figure on the map BEFORE the Overlord places his monsters?

2- Would the hero players know at the time they place their figures on the map about which open groups have been chosen for the quest? Is that information known at that point?

The only mention of this that I could find are from the Shadow Rune quest book, where the book says the Overlord should perform the setup, and the paragraph saying heroes must place their figure comes before monster placement, but I´m unable to say if there is a particular order to respect or if all steps are carried out simultaneously. Individual quests always stipulate hero placement first in the setup section, assuming heroes are not placed on the Entrance in which case default is used as per the quest book rules without any mention on the quest description.

About open groups, the quest information is open as everybody knows, and its contents are therefore read and understood by all parts before proceeding to setup, however should the "open group" variable be resolved at this point, having the Overlord announce which monster groups have been chosen, or can the information be provided only once heroes have placed their figures on the map?

I cannot deny there is a strategic aspect in this which might be beneficial to the Overlord for being able to place figures AFTER heroes do.

What do you think?

PS: Please don't hate me for finding caveats for making the OL life easier

I don't have the answer on hand, but I am pretty sure this (placement order) has been addressed before. Specifically, there was a question about how to place the ally if it and the monsters were going to end up on the same tile.

EDIT: Letanir and any2cards have shown me up. See their posts.

For me, it makes more sense to place the heroes last. The monsters are already there, waiting for the heroes, which have just arrived.

Well you need to read the quest rules before you can decide which open groups you want to use

I can't always pre-read the quest rules and decide before a session, since we might be playing several quests in a row, and it also depends on the gear the hero players purchased.

I haven't found any indication of the importance of figure placement order anywhere on the web.

Rulebook page 5.

So heroes should place their figures on the map before Overlord setup even begins (thus before choosing/placing monsters)

This would also mean Open Groups are decided during Overlord setup, before quest setup but after Heroes setup, the latter comprising of placing the figures on the map.

Thanks a lot

This would also mean Open Groups are decided during Overlord setup, before quest setup but after Heroes setup, the latter comprising of placing the figures on the map.

Thanks a lot

I strongly recommend putting this to FFG just for confirmation. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what Letanir found, just encouraging thinking it all the way through.

I also realized heroes placement might be done as part of the quest setup if not placed on default entrance. Quest setup is performed after monsters have been chosen, so.. yeah......

If you follow this steps, the the Travel step would go AFTER all this setup, so after heroes and monsters are placed on the map. I just find it thematically wrong, so we just do it the way we have decided: 1- Overlord card setup (creating deck, and drawing cards) 2- Travel step 3- Scenario setup (tiles and tokens) 4- Overlord reveals open groups, and tile placement (in case of many open groups) 5- Heroes placement (specific squares) 6- Overlord placement (specific squares)

I have sent the question to FFG for confirmation. Hoping for an answer soon (if they do follow these forums, chances are they will refuse to help me, lol).

I've always just had my hero players set up after I've set everything else up. It hasn't impacted the game as far as I know.

I've always just had my hero players set up after I've set everything else up. It hasn't impacted the game as far as I know.

It does have some strategic significance:

- You can measure movement range from each entrance space and place monsters accordingly. E.g. force heroes to spend fatigue to reach your monsters in melee.

- You can "guess" the heroes sequence based on hero placement.

- Whenever you can place monsters on the tile connected to the entrance, you can place things like Changelings next to the hero you intend to target with some attribute-related spell. Or any monster you may want to place adjacent to a hero with high risk of being affected. Maybe you don't want to do this if none of the front heroes are good targets for an effect like this. It's situational, obviously.

I´ll agree it shouldn't matter much in most situations, but I can think of a few situations where my heroes re-positioned themselves after seeing my monster placement.

In my group we always place heroes before any monsters and before travelling step of campaign phase. We never had problems with it, so we didn't really need rule clarification. But it would be nice to hear official answer.

After having many public and private conversations with Zaltyre and Indalecio, I have a great measure of respect for both and the opinions/thoughts they share ...

I must admit, however, that I am a bit baffled by the "confusion" described within this thread. As Letanir shared above in post #5, the base rule book, page 5 (in a very pleasant change of pace ) is extremely concise and clear as to what order steps are taken.

All of the heroes' setup steps occur BEFORE the Overlord does anything.

Perhaps I am having a "special" dense morning, but I really don't see how this can be interpreted in any other fashion.

You and Letanir are right, of course. I should have thought to check your campaign flow document:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o95h147h1n8xvci/Descent%202nd%20Edition%20Campaign%20Flow.docx?dl=0

It was constructed with all of this stuff having been thoroughly considered, and is a very helpful reference in this case.

If you follow this steps, the the Travel step would go AFTER all this setup, so after heroes and monsters are placed on the map. I just find it thematically wrong, so we just do it the way we have decided: 1- Overlord card setup (creating deck, and drawing cards) 2- Travel step 3- Scenario setup (tiles and tokens) 4- Overlord reveals open groups, and tile placement (in case of many open groups) 5- Heroes placement (specific squares) 6- Overlord placement (specific squares)

I'd rather to think the monster/hero placement as a simple game mechanics. Thematically speaking, is the travel step itself that matters for the lore. I've been playing like that for months, and it worked just fine.

Placing groups after heroes can be the difference. For instance, in a map, I cant remember the name now, a berserker couldn't whirlwind 4 units because one space short, and I predicted this move (heroes love killing whole groups in their 1st turn) by placing the group that one square further.

In my group we always place heroes before any monsters and before travelling step of campaign phase. We never had problems with it, so we didn't really need rule clarification. But it would be nice to hear official answer.

Half way through my groups first campaign I realised the significance of the rules on page five. Sticking to the heroes setting up before the overlord made a definite difference (although I still lost all the quests in the second half).

I had previously been setting up all the monsters before the heroes were placed. The group would then discuss tactics based on the monsters and their placement.

I think the rules on order of placement are very helpful. The group then were discussing what the open group might be and considering options. They play well as a team.

I'd rather to think the monster/hero placement as a simple game mechanics.

If the travel gets interesting , it could change the decissions on first turn actions, and placement for heroes. For example, someone gets damaged, or fatigue'd, and they want to heal or rest, so they stay on back row. Or they find some potions during the travel (once my heroes got 3 potions during travel!!), and want to be at front row to rush, and use the potions to recover later. As I said, I like it thematically this way.

Edit: Anyway, MOST of our travel phases are "no event - no event - no event", so this has not a very big impact for us. But sometimes it has worked well.

We are having a discussion currently on the forums regarding hero/monster figures placement when setting up a quest. The rulesbook p.5 says Heroes setup occurs before Overlord setup, so heroes should already be on the map before monsters are placed, however quest setup is performed after monsters are placed, comprising of non-default hero placement. Which one is correct? There is a small strategic advantage for the overlord regarding that aspect, which is why I´d like to ask you. Also, while all quest-related information is known to be open to all parts, can the Overlord reveal his open groups after hero players have placed their figures on the map? Again, Overlord setup states monsters are chosen and placed on the map after heroes have setup their side, but some players argue the "variable" open group needs to be resolved when players read the quest rules before setup. Thanks by advance BR Indalecio

The rules on page 5 address this by saying, “Each player places his hero figure on the map in the area indicated by the quest rules for hero setup. This is typically on an entrance tile” (emphasis mine). The rulebook is pointing out that while heroes are usually placed on the entrance tile during this step, if there are quest rules for hero setup, barring any rules overriding this document (via the golden rules), they would be performed now and the rest of quest-specific setup would be referenced after this step. So heroes are always placed during this step, even if its not on an entrance tile, unless the quest rules state specifically otherwise.

Yes, the overlord can reveal the chosen open group after heroes are placed on the map. Heroes will know the possible open groups due to knowing the traits of the quest, but the overlord is not actually instructed to choose monsters until the first step of the overlord setup, which as you noted occurs after hero setup.