http://www.sailthe7thsea.com/

http://www.alderac.com/blog/2015/11/03/a-return-to-7th-sea/

relevant to the interests of a lot of l5r players, i imagine, it would appear to that AEG has also divested itself of 7th Sea, having sold it back to its creator, who is going to be kickstarting it tomorrow. it does however sound like they're retaining rights to do some games based in the world, which i take to mean doomtown style stuff.

i'm all for this. i never really played the game much, but i like the setting and i have to imagine that John Wick will do right by it.

Here is a link for the quickstart rules.

The rules are pretty much a revamped version of JW's special snowflake system from House of the Blooded and Blood&Honor. So read with caution.

I'd point out that the Roll & Keep system that John Wick came up with for the L5R and 7th Sea RPGs was quite "Special Snowflake" in its day, but many people here have been quite vocal in their support for that system.

I'd also note that "Roll some dice, count [successes], decide what to do with those" is a system that I've seen in a not insignificant number of assorted games. Each of them has their own way of deciding what a [success] is (and sometimes what they're called) and making sets of 10 is not particularly better or worse than most of them.

Here is a link for the quickstart rules.

The rules are pretty much a revamped version of JW's special snowflake system from House of the Blooded and Blood&Honor. So read with caution.

Apparently people like special snowflakes, since its currently sitting at a cool half million bucks, and had the biggest first day of any rpg on kickstarter ever...

L5R:

7th Sea:

John Wick:

Here is a link for the quickstart rules.

The rules are pretty much a revamped version of JW's special snowflake system from House of the Blooded and Blood&Honor. So read with caution.

Apparently people like special snowflakes, since its currently sitting at a cool half million bucks, and had the biggest first day of any rpg on kickstarter ever...

I dunno, but as I can see it, it isn't the game mechanics that are producing the interest, so to speak. In fact, there is a lot of controversy around the Consequences system and the Danger Dices. Not to mention that as it now stands, Risks aren't risky at all.

I'm amused by the word "snowflake" being thrown around like being an indie developer with non-d20 ideas is a bad thing.

7th sea (1st edition) had not a bad system, but it wasn't without (sometimes very bad) flaws. No system is perfect, and I personally like the new approach. Could it be better? Probably, but I do believe that actually ''get'' swashbuckling. The difficulty for basically everyhting is 10, which makes perfect sense. You want your hero to do heroic things, not fail miserably when trying something cool rather than the boring ''safer'' approach.

You then simply have to pay the price for your bravery, rather than falling flat and fail boringly.

My two doubloons

I'm amused by the word "snowflake" being thrown around like being an indie developer with non-d20 ideas is a bad thing.

It is, if you are trying to sell the slightly revamped version of the same system for the third time.

You want your hero to do heroic things, not fail miserably when trying something cool rather than the boring ''safer'' approach.

Funny thing is, that the system in the quickstart does not really allow you to do heroic things. It "allows" you to do average things and suck. Except if you have an *sshole GM, because then you will just simply fail.

The problem is, that the roll mechanics give you a very predictable result: you are going to always get half as many Raises as the number of dice you rolled. You hvae something, like, a totally minimal chance to get one less or more (you either roll 2+ 10s or half+ <5s). Not only that, but the less dice you roll, the negative extreme becomes more prevalent (it is easier to get the "half+ <5s"). But if you roll more dice, you have higher chance to roll lots of 1s the GM can take away for extra-sucky Danger Dice (the one effect that raises the difficulty to 15 is going to halve your Raises).

If you look at the stuff you can spend your Raises, you see that one Raise spent on the Intent will give you the most basic thing: you run to the door, you strike your opponent, etc. If you want to do something more flashy (more swashbuckly) then you have to spend more Raises on the Intent... but then you will have less Raises to spend on negating Consequences or doing awesome narrative stuff. Considering that the Consequences are rigged to negate the Intent (alarming the guards while picking a lock is quite counter-productive, for example), you would need at least, say, 4 Raises for everything (1 to get your Intent, 1 to get your Intent in an awesome way, and 2 to negate the worst Consequences) that in turn requires at least 8 rolled dice. Among the sample characters, exactly one can roll 8 dice, everyone else is dice-hunting for the 8+.

It is kinda sad if you think about it. The only hope is the rather controversial state of the Consequences (there is a sidebar about how Consequences shouldn't be serious, and then there are the example Consequences in the rules that are pretty darn serious). Also, dice-hunting might be easy if the players know where to look. But still, chances are high that stuff gets pretty gritty and down-to-earth because the players can't get enough Raises to show off, to negate Consequences, or to add awesome narrative details.

I dunno, but as I can see it, it isn't the game mechanics that are producing the interest, so to speak. In fact, there is a lot of controversy around the Consequences system and the Danger Dices. Not to mention that as it now stands, Risks aren't risky at all.

So much controversy that people have donated nearly 600 thousand dollars they could have just sat on.

If you don't think people are at least mildly enthused about the mechanics, you grossly overestimate the appeal of a setting that's basically a pastiche of Europe.

I dunno, but as I can see it, it isn't the game mechanics that are producing the interest, so to speak. In fact, there is a lot of controversy around the Consequences system and the Danger Dices. Not to mention that as it now stands, Risks aren't risky at all.

So much controversy that people have donated nearly 600 thousand dollars they could have just sat on.

This would have happened if the quickstart rules had been based on D&D 3.5 . TBH, it looks like people is interested in the world and thematic choice of the game, rather than the somewhat poorly-written mechanics.

Well, it's your opinion, but not mine. It's as if we are not reading the same rules. I do understand that the weight of having both interesting, fair and challenging consequences fall on the GM's shoulder, and that can be a bad thing depending on the GM, but I much prefer a system which favors choice and naration .

Let's leave it at agree to disagree, ok?

EDIT: edited for clarity

This would have happened if the quickstart rules had been based on D&D 3.5 . TBH, it looks like people is interested in the world and thematic choice of the game, rather than the somewhat poorly-written mechanics.

If not the setting and theme, then also nostalgia from those of us who enjoyed the game in the past. While you may be on to something there, I just get the feeling that you're taking it personally that the creator isn't using rules you appreciate - it is not his responsibility to cater to the common audience of gamers. As Tetsuhiko said earlier, he's got the money and backing to do as he pleases - if he didn't, he would probably need to market a more interesting system.

That aside there is a little bit of good news: The quick start was created months prior to the Kickstarter, and some research reveals that the system is still in development. Can it still turn out to be something you don't like? Sure, but that's the lovely thing about tabletop games - if you don't like the rules, play with different ones. If you don't want to take the effort, then go play a different game.

I am pretty sure that the team at JWP is working to make a cinematic and cooperative storytelling experience rather than a game with binary outcomes, which is cool. But, I'll be honest; there are parts of the currently revealed system that make be cringe because I am used to the likes of D&D and L5R. How easy it is for anyone to succeed at anything due to he lack of numerically scaling TNs, the reduced character complexity, and a less crunchy 'combat' system. In a way it all feels too easy.

As a player of 1st edition and a backer of this one, I personally just like the setting a whole lot and getting all the 1st and 2nd edition pdfs for 40$ is a steal for that trove of information and adventure hooks. But when the books are released and I discover that the system doesn't suit my table's needs, I'll tweak it or switch to something else: Maybe the Cypher System, back to 1st Edition, or the new Conan one if it pans out.

If not the setting and theme, then also nostalgia from those of us who enjoyed the game in the past. While you may be on to something there, I just get the feeling that you're taking it personally that the creator isn't using rules you appreciate - it is not his responsibility to cater to the common audience of gamers.

My opinion is that - may I note, as always in his game-designer career - John Wick managed to create a system that is unfit for what his own game wants to achieve. There is literally nothing in the mechanics that the R&K or even the D20 systems couldn't do just as well, but in return, it is bleaker than the Gobi Desert. As one of my friends noted, the crunch behind the system is so tight and predictable it is questionable whether the players should even roll dice. There is no tension, no danger, no risk , only boring (and time consuming) resource management.

My opinion is that - may I note, as always in his game-designer career - John Wick managed to create a system that is unfit for what his own game wants to achieve. There is literally nothing in the mechanics that the R&K or even the D20 systems couldn't do just as well, but in return, it is bleaker than the Gobi Desert. As one of my friends noted, the crunch behind the system is so tight and predictable it is questionable whether the players should even roll dice. There is no tension, no danger, no risk , only boring (and time consuming) resource management.

Aww, aren't you an adorable little ball of spite.

As you've been repeating yourself, so shall I: I agree with your friend, but you can play the game differently if you don't like it.

Don't most people choose games based on setting, not systems?

The Kickstarter is helped immeasurably by the fact that $40+ gets you a free PDF copy of ALL 1st and 2nd edition books. That's remarkably good value. In the UK that would get you one print copy book at best.

Don't most people choose games based on setting, not systems?

I agree, up to a point.

There is a limit to the system I can tolerate, no matter how cool the setting is. I love Cthulhu, and while the system is bad, it's manageable.

Alas, Rifts's system is, in my humble opinion, a convulated, bad and horrible system. I eagerly waiting for the Savage Worlds version so I can play again and not want to crawl up in a corner and cry.

Eh, i wish him luck. The meta plot for the first edition absolutely ruined the game for me, and if something like that were to be included in this edition than I just won't be giving this game any of my money.

But it's not like the system can be made any more bloated or difficult to use.

You realise that the bizarre metaplot was something that was done by AEG after John was no longer working on the setting?

He has confirmed that this is a reboot.

Yeah, no Montaigne revolution, a new nation, a new continent and probably much more.

Looks like the problems with the mechanics reached the Kickstarter. The comment section now has at least three disappointed backers (looks like a 1000$ backer even quit the project) rambling about the weird rolling system.

But Wick personally promised that they will look into it. I hope they aren't afraid to make a complete overhaul.

Not that I think this is the crux of your argument by any means, but I would say that getting 8+ dice under the new rules is not hard. Don't forget the subsystems in place as well as core mechanics. The first time you use a unique skill in a scene (such as sleight of hand or what have you for lockpicking) you get a bonus die to the roll. Likewise when you put forth even a modicum of descriptive effort for your roll you get an additional die. Then there's hero points which seem suprisingly easy to gain and spend (they seem like a relatively consistent resource if you play dramatically). These hero points can be spent for additional dice.

Honestly, a friend and I looked at the "roll and keep all" concept as a potential change to the L5R system and we thought it was fine, but that it's core flaw was rolling so many dice. I think making the dice counting "set-based" is a fairly good way to manage the dice but it still might cause problems.

Also, on a final note, John is not creating mechanics for 7th Sea. He is primarily setting lore. Other members of the development team are responsibile for a vast majority of any mechanics, especially at this point.

Not that I think this is the crux of your argument by any means, but I would say that getting 8+ dice under the new rules is not hard. Don't forget the subsystems in place as well as core mechanics.

Yeah, I mentioned that dice-hunting is fairly easy.

Also, on a final note, John is not creating mechanics for 7th Sea. He is primarily setting lore. Other members of the development team are responsibile for a vast majority of any mechanics, especially at this point.

I doubt this. The system 7th Sea Second Edition uses is literally the slightly rehashed version of JW's very own narrative system he used in his two previous games (House of the Blooded and Blood&Honor). There would be no reason to use that system (especially because its effectiveness is... questionable ) unless JW specifically wanted it.

I did not know that john wasn't on board for all of first edition. At what point did he leave?

Any way, how are schools being handled? In first edition the most mechanically advantaged fighter that I ever saw was someone who.... didn't take a swordsman school at all, just dumped points in to skills.

Will this be fixed this time around? I hope so.

But maybe I'll go take a look at this, see what changes have been made.