So I've been reading through F&D, EoTE, and AoR for various character concepts, and it seems that F&D characters are more powerful pound for pound. I roll up a force user from F&D, and I'm pretty stoked about the possibilities, seems cool. Roll up a non force user, and I'm like, eh.... Compared a couple of similar concepts on both sides of the force-using coin, and it seems to back up my feelings. I guess the main point is that it seems it would be difficult to mesh the systems together. Agree/disagree? Anyone have any experience playing in or running a mixed system game that could speak to the relative balance?

In our group of mixed careers, the force users are quite balanced with the non-force users. The downside to the force user is that there are so many options available that it can be difficult to spend points for a specific direction of growth.

Offhand I disagree, but you didn't really give a reason why you feel the forcees are more powerful.

So... Why do you think forcees start more powerful? Is there some mechanical difference you think slants it, or do the specs just speak to you more?

It very much depends what you call powerful.

A Gadgeteer with 4 Agility, 2 ranks of ranged heavy, Jury Rigged and a Heavy Blaster Rifle is devastating in combat right out of the gate.

A quartermaster with 4 Presence, 2 in negotiation or charm, and 2 ranks of smooth talker can get just about anybody to do anything.

In fact any character with a 4 in anything is going to be good at a lot of stuff, and non force characters have more yellow dice for less cost making them more effective throughout a session.

Skill ranks are an important consideration.

Force powers are powerful, but at the expense of talents and skills.

Combining 1 FaD with an EotE or AoR spec is often very powerful.

I think the key with force and destiny is you can be good at many things, but it will cost you.

It's much easier to build a broader character concept in the other two books. Force users have to spend a lot or end up hyper specialised.

That, and none force sensible careers often come with additional, narrative hooks. Sure, you can play as an advisor, but a smuggler charmer can do plenty with just a smooth tongue, a fancy hand and a disarming smile. Influence can do a lot, but a charmer can make a dispair result fail in a social encounters

A large chunk of it is theme of campiagn, are you looking to punch the empires lights out? Profit? Survive? Earn, become Lord of a local company/criminal empire, I find the none force users just as interesting,.

Pretty sure I've heard that one of the high points of the system is because the Force users are balanced in comparison to the muggles.

Disagree. But then I've actually played the game with a mix of characters.

Given the same amount xp most non Force using characters can keep up with Force users. Force powers give an edge but that edge can be blunted in other ways. The Force user is always spending between 3 different character aspects as opposed to 2. That creates a diffusion in their overall power. Granted given certain situations a Force user can be more powerful ..... but the same is true for non Force users.

In that regards power is relative to what you're trying to do in any given situation. There are going to be challenges that yes a Force user may breeze through but then again their non Force user counterpart is going to breeze through something else because they didn't have to spend XP on Force powers.

I've played in an number of games where there was only one FaD character (usually played by me) while the other PCs were from EotE or AoR, and the only time the FaD character "outshined" the other PCs was when a scenario came up that played directly into my character's area of expertise.

As others have said, in FaD you have to make a choice between being hyper-specialized or broadly capable, and both avenues are going to cost XP. And with the EotE and AoR PCs having similar amounts of XP, they're going to be quite capable in their areas of expertise. I had one game where the Wookiee Soldier/Commando was hell on wheels in combat long before my Ataru Striker could honestly compete, and even after getting a proper lightsaber the Wookiee was just simply all around more devastating in a fight. The AoR game I'm playing in now (though none of the PCs were made using AoR careers), my Shii-Cho Knight can be pretty devastating when he breaks out the lightsaber (something he generally does reluctantly to avoid drawing too much Imperial attention), but the Bounty Hunter with his beefed-up heavy blaster rifle is perhaps even more devastating in terms of damage output and can attack from range. And both of those PCs of mine weren't of much use in social situations (my Shii-Cho Knight's gotten a better thanks to snagging Niman Disciple, but he pales in comparison to our Twi'lek Colonist/Doctor).

I'm running a FaD campaign right now, and probably one of the most effective PCs in the lot is the Smuggler, though the character is going through a bit of a transitional phase inspired by in-game events that's severely limited her combat effectiveness. But out of combat, she's a pretty handy person to have around.

There may come a point where Force users in this system are more powerful than their muggle allies, but it's not going to be for quite some time, likely only after several hundred XP has been awarded, and perhaps not even then.

So I've been reading through F&D, EoTE, and AoR for various character concepts, and it seems that F&D characters are more powerful pound for pound. I roll up a force user from F&D, and I'm pretty stoked about the possibilities, seems cool. Roll up a non force user, and I'm like, eh.... Compared a couple of similar concepts on both sides of the force-using coin, and it seems to back up my feelings. I guess the main point is that it seems it would be difficult to mesh the systems together. Agree/disagree? Anyone have any experience playing in or running a mixed system game that could speak to the relative balance?

I'm relatively new to the game, and I had originally thought this to be true.

I don't think this anymore. Actually, I'm extremely impressed by how balanced Force users and non-Force users can be.

In my experience, the difference comes down to skills and breadth. In narrow circumstances -- usually around 1v1 melee combat and unique narrative moments, for example using Sense-powers -- the F&D character will be the standout example. But in a hundred other circumstances -- trading, ranged combat, piloting, knowledge-skills, etc. -- there are a dozen reasons why you'd want a EotE character.

I'm so pleased the game did NOT create the conditions for Powergaming Jedi. I would hate that kind of game. It has not been my experience that this has been the case here.

Mind you, I do feel a little bad for Force-Sensitive Exile characters, as I don't feel it's as "worth it" to go with this than it is to simply make a F&D character in the first place. I don't like the Specialization, I guess, mostly because it doesn't have any career skills, which means it's not a good choice for an early Specialization. Mind you, for mid-stage or late-stage characters, it might be a good option. Like with anything -- including F&D characters -- the Force requires time and investment in order to pay off. That is rather unlike a lot of EotE characters, who can be extremely skilled and broadly capable at early stages of play.

In my opinion, Force Sensitive Exile/Emergent have pretty sweet talent trees though. I feel that when you take that into consideration along with the fact they are universal trees (they never have the out of career XP tax to acquire them), that they are both pretty solid investments. And if you want to be a non-F&D career, they are the only way to obtain a force rating after chargen, currently.

In my opinion, Force Sensitive Exile/Emergent have pretty sweet talent trees though. I feel that when you take that into consideration along with the fact they are universal trees (they never have the out of career XP tax to acquire them), that they are both pretty solid investments. And if you want to be a non-F&D career, they are the only way to obtain a force rating after chargen, currently.

It's true, the cost is low. And the Reactions-Reflexes-Sixth Sense talent route is a pretty sweet way to supplement a EotE combat-focused character.

So I've been reading through F&D, EoTE, and AoR for various character concepts, and it seems that F&D characters are more powerful pound for pound.

We just finished up a KotOR campaign. Of the combatants, we had Two Jedi and one Marauder. Far and away the Marauder was the one to be feared, not the Jedi. Hands down.

Also, define more powerful? My politio scathing tiraded a Dark Jedi into running away to his master with his tail between his legs, and not one weapon was raised. That sounds pretty **** powerful to me.

So I've been reading through F&D, EoTE, and AoR for various character concepts, and it seems that F&D characters are more powerful pound for pound.

We just finished up a KotOR campaign. Of the combatants, we had Two Jedi and one Marauder. Far and away the Marauder was the one to be feared, not the Jedi. Hands down.

Also, define more powerful? My politio scathing tiraded a Dark Jedi into running away to his master with his tail between his legs, and not one weapon was raised. That sounds pretty **** powerful to me.

No kidding. I just wrapped up a Force and Destiny game. 3 saber users and the Droid marauder put them to shame. And I even held back when I built that droid.

I have to agree that FaD characters don't tend to outshine those in EotE or AoR. Where I think Force-users do shine is when they've finally invested enough experience to utilize some of the more all-purpose Force skills, like Move and Sense. And yet, even those have to be used in the right way. Crushing battle droids beneath a Heavy Object ? That's fine. Crushing stormtroopers beneath a Heavy Object ? That's probably grounds for Conflict points to be awarded.

We recently finished a game at about about 900 earned experience. The Chiss Marauder/Heavy/Demolitionist was the most dangerous in combat, and had been consistently through the game. I Niman Disciple/Sage was starting to catch up and finally hold her own, but for most of the game she was lagging far behind from a combat perspective.

Out of combat they all had their strengths and weaknesses. The Politico was probably the handiest in a social situation, with the Sage once again not to far behind at 900 xp, but for most of the game was lagging farther behind in the social arena.

First most Starting Careers in F&D have weaker talents then EOTE or AOR Talents.

Second There is no real effective Faceman tree in F&D both Sage and Advisor are not good at talking

Third the real power comes more from force powers, but they are unreliable at best and highly dependent on taking conflct to eek out a working power.

Finally Force Powers and force rating are a huge xp sink easily equivalent to almost finishing an entire tree.

First most Starting Careers in F&D have weaker talents then EOTE or AOR Talents.

I think that may be more subjective. Each focuses on different aspects so the talents will vary to support each one. I haven't seen anyone complain that the talents available for each one are decidedly weaker in any way.

Second There is no real effective Faceman tree in F&D both Sage and Advisor are not good at talking

Maybe not, but it is not like you can not be one. And that is not to say we won't get a spec focused on it. Choices had to be made when putting together the book and since it is focused on Force users, it was perhaps thought that with a Force power like Influence anyone taking it had the potential to a good "faceman" so an actual spec focused on it wasn't needed right away.

Third the real power comes more from force powers, but they are unreliable at best and highly dependent on taking conflct to eek out a working power.

Only initially. As you gain more XP and increase your Force rating they will become more reliable. But that is as intended. FFG designed where Force users can not outshine their compatriots out of the gate. Force powers are like skills in that there is some chance for failure in that you must choose when and where they get used, and how it will affect your morality. This is to emulate the to and fro of dealing with the Dark and Light sides.

Finally Force Powers and force rating are a huge xp sink easily equivalent to almost finishing an entire tree.

As intended. In previous games, Force users tended to overshadow other character archetypes to the point of making them useless. This is a balancing factor giving a player a third axis to follow beyond skills and talents. Powers tend to have a variety of uses and situational bonuses thus allowing Force users a more jack of all trades ability but not so much that they make others feel useless.

Overall the entire exercise is very subjective. Personally I haven't seen any great imbalances among the lines.

Its not subjective.

Sleight of Mind is nowhere near as good as Stalker.

Stalker gives a bonus die for stealth and coordination that works against anyone

Sleight of Mind gives a bonus die for stealth that only works on people not immune to the force.

Jury Rigged Vrs Imbue item

Jury Rigged has no cost does the same thing as Imbue Item which requires commiting a force die and taking strain every round.

Bacta Specialist vrs Healing Trance

Bacta specialist heals anyone 1 extra point while in a bacta tank or long term care

Healing trance only heals the player by commiting force dice

Sage has 2 Ranks of Smooth Talker and 3 ranks of Knowledge Specialization and no way to reroll Knowledge checks

Shadow has 2 Ranks of Codebreaker and no bypass security.

The list goes on and on.

Again, as intended.

• The point wasn't to make their talents as good as the talents in EotE and AoR. Those books are focused on non -Force characters. The talents and specs in F&D are built with the knowledge that Force-using characters will also be taking Force powers. Force powers which can be quite useful in many scenarios rather than the more narrowly focused skills. Powers like Enhance, Influence and Misdirect can be quite useful in many situations whereas skills like Stealth and Coordination. Sense can be used in conjunction with both Perception and combat skills. FFG built this as a stand alone game but also had to keep the other core books in mind. Just using the same talents would instill too much ability. Plus there is the Force flavour aspect.
• Jury-Rigged vs Imbue Item: JR must be done at a time outside of combat. Once done it is there until changed, but time must be taken to enact the change. Imbue can be done while in combat, not to mention changed during combat. Which means the Force user can change the item imbued, say from a weapon to armour depending on her needs.
• Bacta Specialist vs Healing Trance: Does everyone have access to Bacta at all times? I would say not. A Force-user always has access to their Healing trance. Not to mention their Healing trance combines with Bacta Specialist.
• Just because specs aren't made to your liking doesn't mean they are inferior or wrong. That was just a choice the designers made after playtesting and brainstorming themes. Again they did not want to give too much ability and make the Force specs too uber. They probably felt the if people wished to combine games then it might be a good idea to leave reasons to take specs in other books. So the Shadow could dip into Slicer if they wanted to become better with computers or Spy to become better as an infiltrator.

My F&D character is good at several things and more prepared for a variety of things I throw at him. However he is not as powerful as the non force characters that are more focused when in referring to their focuses. Plus when I hand out 25 xp to 30 xp per session the force character has to struggle where to put it and the others are done in 5 minutes. They hit dedication faster as well.

Again, as intended.

• The point wasn't to make their talents as good as the talents in EotE and AoR. Those books are focused on non -Force characters. The talents and specs in F&D are built with the knowledge that Force-using characters will also be taking Force powers. Force powers which can be quite useful in many scenarios rather than the more narrowly focused skills. Powers like Enhance, Influence and Misdirect can be quite useful in many situations whereas skills like Stealth and Coordination. Sense can be used in conjunction with both Perception and combat skills. FFG built this as a stand alone game but also had to keep the other core books in mind. Just using the same talents would instill too much ability. Plus there is the Force flavour aspect.
• Jury-Rigged vs Imbue Item: JR must be done at a time outside of combat. Once done it is there until changed, but time must be taken to enact the change. Imbue can be done while in combat, not to mention changed during combat. Which means the Force user can change the item imbued, say from a weapon to armour depending on her needs.
• Bacta Specialist vs Healing Trance: Does everyone have access to Bacta at all times? I would say not. A Force-user always has access to their Healing trance. Not to mention their Healing trance combines with Bacta Specialist.
• Just because specs aren't made to your liking doesn't mean they are inferior or wrong. That was just a choice the designers made after playtesting and brainstorming themes. Again they did not want to give too much ability and make the Force specs too uber. They probably felt the if people wished to combine games then it might be a good idea to leave reasons to take specs in other books. So the Shadow could dip into Slicer if they wanted to become better with computers or Spy to become better as an infiltrator.

Let me get this straight giving a bonus to a second skill that won't work on people immune to the force would be giving too much ability to a force user.

Bacta specialist does not actually require bacta it also gives a bonus for healing long term care without it. Healing trance only works on that person. It also requires them to commit force dice thus removing the ability to effectively use those things that would make them "overpowered"

Imbue item is activated instantly it also uses a strain and forces the commitment of force dice meaning not only is the person taking damage every round they keep it up they just effectively removed the ability to use any of the powers and abilities that you claim would make them more powerful then non force users. Its punishing them for choosing to play a force using character by going not only do you get a talent that is worse its also going to take everything you designed your character to do away. I have never met a person who actively goes oops I forgot to jury rig my gun before I left or I wish I could change it to something else mid combat.

I honestly believe people made decisions less on what is good for a standalone game and more for how can we make sure that a Force Using character will never be as good as someone who doesn't use the force. So many talents and trees are designed to deliberately make them weaker then equivalent in the other game that they never will be close to as good as characters from outside the game.

For example if I want a face and a leader outside of Force and destiny there are several good trees that will give me those benefits, but in force and destiny I have to take two seperate force powers nearly max out the trees, buy two different specializations and I'll be so far behind on the xp curve to a Smuggler or diplomat who really only needed 1 tree to be as good if not better then me in an area that Consulars are supposed to be good at.

Shrug. Simple solution. Find another game. Or make changes to suit it for yourself. A majority of people are quite content with the talents as they are. The three lines have a good balance for most players, which is an achievement for FFG.

Honestly it all boils down to the imagination of the player. Anyone who is good at "optimizing" character options is going to outshine other players who play whats fun and don't focus on being OP. I will admit that some classes are more situational than others, but again, imagination of the player. Another example, I might not be able to make a pathfinder work in a campaign because I don't know how an animal companion would be useful, but someone else could easily step in and make that character more of an asset than anything I could make. Everyone has their own flavor and I think the Star Wars games have done great at providing options for just about everyone.

It's all about taste. Shadows are magical space ninjas. Sleight of Mind is a magical space ninjaness thing. It's more flavor.