How were the raiders outfitted?

The both had Ordnance experts, one had ACM, the other had Expanded Launchers.

And they really hurt my lead MC80 badly.

Had a fun game with Maturin today (vassal obviously):

Had 2 raider-Is, with both titles. With Ozzel commanding they did quite well I'd say. Got mileage out of both Instigator and Impetuous. Sort of full circle - my very first wave 2 fleet was 2xRaider-Is with Ozzel. Now I'm back where I started. Great fun.

And I think this really illustrates what makes this game so good. Nothing has changed, there have been no balance patches, no errata. But as we all grow into the game we find things we missed the first time around. Its like when you re-read a great book and you catch passages you didn't on the first go.

This, so much this !

I've witnessed many people in my area shy away from the obvious wave 2 builds and go back to the roots with vanilla lists with quite decent efficiency. I think we all really needed to play the game with the Wave 2 to properly understand what the game devs intended with it since the starter kit.

Definitely agree with "Nothing has changed". Wave 2 did not change the game, it expanded on it. I think the 400 points format helped to figure things out too : I'm currently working on an article in my (soon to be released) blog where I talk about Admirals being looked at more as fleet wide upgrades than cornerstones to be built around. They took so much of the points allotment in Wave 1 that building around them was important, but both the points increase and the new Wave 2 admirals make it so that building around is not only unnecessary but sometimes a liability.

I mean, since we're talking about the Raider here, let's just take a cold hard look at Ozzel. Nobody can say "I'm taking Ozzel because I'm building a fleet that can either slown down from speeds 3-4 to 1-2, or accelerate from 1-2 t o 3-4", it makes absolutely no sense in the list building process.

But, when you look at him as "Alright, now I have Engine Tech-lite acceleration power and Breaking BHard deceleration whenever the hell I need them", now Ozzel makes a lot of sense.

Same goes for Mothma and MC80s : should someone prevent themselves from flying MC80s because they don't benefit from Mothma ? Heck no. Obviously, 2 MC80 with Mothma is a stupid investment, but an MC80 with Corvettes, Nebs, MC30s and AFMK2s can work because Mothma is still bringing things to the fleet whenever you actually need them.

Same goes for Garm : Is it more important to say "look, haha, Garm gave me 9 tokens, now bow down to my genius list engineering !" or "Well, I wanted ships able to use tokens without me having to actively bank them, so thanks Garm for that squadron token on my CR90 that allowed me to tie up part of a Fireball and saved the ass of my Vette !"

Had a fun game with Maturin today (vassal obviously):

Had 2 raider-Is, with both titles. With Ozzel commanding they did quite well I'd say. Got mileage out of both Instigator and Impetuous. Sort of full circle - my very first wave 2 fleet was 2xRaider-Is with Ozzel. Now I'm back where I started. Great fun.

Maybe I should have focused on the raiders, but then his ISD would be in my face. Ditto for Demolisher.

And his raiders took my fighter cover down HARD. 4-6 HP's Per squad lost in one turn. Ouch!

Nobody can say "I'm taking Ozzel because I'm building a fleet that can either slown down from speeds 3-4 to 1-2, or accelerate from 1-2 t o 3-4", it makes absolutely no sense in the list building process.

If Raiders were actually good and I'm putting them in a list with Gladiators, that makes perfect sense to me. Glads rocket into flanks and speed down to 1 to coast at close range, and Raiders instantly flip from intercept to maneuver speeds. Ozzel's always been great for that, it's just that the Raider can't deflect any damage.

Nobody can say "I'm taking Ozzel because I'm building a fleet that can either slown down from speeds 3-4 to 1-2, or accelerate from 1-2 t o 3-4", it makes absolutely no sense in the list building process.

If Raiders were actually good and I'm putting them in a list with Gladiators, that makes perfect sense to me. Glads rocket into flanks and speed down to 1 to coast at close range, and Raiders instantly flip from intercept to maneuver speeds. Ozzel's always been great for that, it's just that the Raider can't deflect any damage.

I'm sorry man, but it doesn't make perfect sense. You can't plan before a game (which is when you build lists) that you will reduce/increase speed by 2 notches. Because you don't know whether or not you'll actually need these moves until the game starts and develops into situations where you want to use that ability, or where you felt that ability would have been nice to have.

Same goes for preparing for a tourney, you don't know whether or not you might need this, because you have no idea about your matchups.

With your example : ideally, the Glads work like that, but sometimes you might have aimed them at a small ship that has a very high chance of just burning away before/after you activate (looking at you, MC30s with a fishy banked Navigate Command !).

Regarding the specifics of the tanking of the Raiders, it's beating a dead horse right now. Statistically speaking, at long range a Raider can tank 5 to 6 damage before going into the hull (6 being a double red hit that is evaded, down to 4 damage which is braced).

Obviously, the Raider can't tank more than that, but neither can the CR90 for a similar price

Not directing this specifically against you, but the phrasing "If Raiders were actually good" needs to be replaced by "If Raiders were actually good for what I want them to do" It seems that for what you're envisioning, a Gladiator is probably more than sufficient (it can take more hits than a Raider due to more shields and the oh so precious Redirect). I can understand that you're a bit disappointed because you bought 3 of them so far and they're not working as you intended, and FFG's marketing is probably responsible for overselling the ship without question. I feel you completely and would be in the exact same situation, which is why I like to buy new stuff with parcimony and trying them out for what they really bring rather than what I want to do with them.

Nobody can say "I'm taking Ozzel because I'm building a fleet that can either slown down from speeds 3-4 to 1-2, or accelerate from 1-2 t o 3-4", it makes absolutely no sense in the list building process.

If Raiders were actually good and I'm putting them in a list with Gladiators, that makes perfect sense to me. Glads rocket into flanks and speed down to 1 to coast at close range, and Raiders instantly flip from intercept to maneuver speeds. Ozzel's always been great for that, it's just that the Raider can't deflect any damage.

I'm sorry man, but it doesn't make perfect sense. You can't plan before a game (which is when you build lists) that you will reduce/increase speed by 2 notches. Because you don't know whether or not you'll actually need these moves until the game starts and develops into situations where you want to use that ability, or where you felt that ability would have been nice to have.

Same goes for preparing for a tourney, you don't know whether or not you might need this, because you have no idea about your matchups.

With your example : ideally, the Glads work like that, but sometimes you might have aimed them at a small ship that has a very high chance of just burning away before/after you activate (looking at you, MC30s with a fishy banked Navigate Command !).

Regarding the specifics of the tanking of the Raiders, it's beating a dead horse right now. Statistically speaking, at long range a Raider can tank 5 to 6 damage before going into the hull (6 being a double red hit that is evaded, down to 4 damage which is braced).

Obviously, the Raider can't tank more than that, but neither can the CR90 for a similar price

Not directing this specifically against you, but the phrasing "If Raiders were actually good" needs to be replaced by "If Raiders were actually good for what I want them to do" It seems that for what you're envisioning, a Gladiator is probably more than sufficient (it can take more hits than a Raider due to more shields and the oh so precious Redirect). I can understand that you're a bit disappointed because you bought 3 of them so far and they're not working as you intended, and FFG's marketing is probably responsible for overselling the ship without question. I feel you completely and would be in the exact same situation, which is why I like to buy new stuff with parcimony and trying them out for what they really bring rather than what I want to do with them.

But I can plan ahead and say, "When I'll be in effective range, I'll kick a navigate command and drop down to speed 2 for good positioning". Heck, I can deploy at speed 4, bank a nav token, then spam concentrate fire until I need to drop to speed 2 where I have double clicks. I don't need prescience, I just need to know I have that ability and can do it when it's needed.

Even in a demolition derby against other corvettes, I don't have to use Ozzel for the speed reduction shinanigans, but the option is open to me.

Obviously, the Raider can't tank more than that, but neither can the CR90 for a similar price

This doesn't make sense to me. CR-90s with redirects have access to 4 shields defending from one attack, and that's not considering the evades OR Mon-Mothma. When firing into one arc, a Raider only has six points of damage before it's destroyed. Thanks to Redirect, a CR-90 has ten. It can shunt incoming damage into a different non-facing arc and still have six points left against any attackers. Raiders have no recourse to, as Lancezh pointed out, take an engineering token to move the shields when it activates. CR-90s actively shunt damage every time they defend!

...a bit disappointed because you bought 3 of them so far and they're not working as you intended,

And what is that? A speed 4 ship with Montferrat conferring a bonus at speed 3 or higher doesn't suggest you're supposed to use this as a high-speed attacker? If this ship was supposed to be some kind of close escort as everyone is suggesting, it should not have had those things. If it's supposed to be a close-escort, it should be speed 3 with a commander that reverses Montferrat to say travelling slow protects the ship better.

None of this refutes how pitiful the ship's defenses are that it can't deflect a lot of damage. Sure, your brace cuts the 4 damage in half. Now you have no front shields, here come those X-Wings to give you a critical and set your ship on fire. This can happen no matter if you're escorting your Star Destoryers or if your reach-around finally pays off in turn 5 when you arrive at your target.

Let me bring lightheartedness into this and say that I would buy a plushie of a Raider.

But I can plan ahead and say, "When I'll be in effective range, I'll kick a navigate command and drop down to speed 2 for good positioning". Heck, I can deploy at speed 4, bank a nav token, then spam concentrate fire until I need to drop to speed 2 where I have double clicks. I don't need prescience, I just need to know I have that ability and can do it when it's needed.

Even in a demolition derby against other corvettes, I don't have to use Ozzel for the speed reduction shinanigans, but the option is open to me.

Obviously, the Raider can't tank more than that, but neither can the CR90 for a similar price

This doesn't make sense to me. CR-90s with redirects have access to 4 shields defending from one attack, and that's not considering the evades OR Mon-Mothma. When firing into one arc, a Raider only has six points of damage before it's destroyed. Thanks to Redirect, a CR-90 has ten. It can shunt incoming damage into a different non-facing arc and still have six points left against any attackers.

In real life, it takes anywhere from 6 (if you're defending against 6 single-die squadrons that never miss and never crit) to 12 (if you take optimal even-damage shots with no accuracies). And that's assuming that damage all goes into one arc--the worst case, albeit also the most likely case.

The CR90, on the other hand, can weather anywhere from 8 (defending from one huge shot with no accuracies) to 10 (10 single-die squadrons that never miss). And that damage can come from basically anywhere, because redirecting burns off adjacent shields leaving you naked to everything.

Both are exactly equally vulnerable to massive damage with an accuracy, and will go down to 6+acc.

Sure. If you assume the CR90 always gets to use the redirect and the Raider never gets to use the brace. Which is a pretty disingenuous argument.

Is it? The CR-90 can take ECMs. In a universe with Home One handing out accuracy to everyone, for 7 points you can make sure you have the needed token while the Raider can't. AND you have Mon-Mothma to make damage disappear at medium range. (While CR-90s are still effective at long ranges, where their evades still cancel dice just fine) I mean what else are you going to put on the CR-90s, Cluster Bombs? Why would you ever take a CR-90 without giving it ECM?

Because its still going to die to one hit 90% of the time, even with ECM, and I'd rather not bother spending those points there...

Sure. If you assume the CR90 always gets to use the redirect and the Raider never gets to use the brace. Which is a pretty disingenuous argument.

Is it? The CR-90 can take ECMs. In a universe with Home One handing out accuracy to everyone, for 7 points you can make sure you have the needed token while the Raider can't. AND you have Mon-Mothma to make damage disappear at medium range. (While CR-90s are still effective at long ranges, where their evades still cancel dice just fine) I mean what else are you going to put on the CR-90s, Cluster Bombs? Why would you ever take a CR-90 without giving it ECM?

I wouldn't take ECMs on a CR90 for the same reason I would never take ECMs on an MC30. Redundant tokens make it pretty unnecessary. Sure, occasionally you'll get shut down, but I would rather have more ships/squadrons than a redirect one time when I needed it. Seven points is a ton to dump onto one ship. The best way to keep a CR90 alive is do navigate orders.

Because its still going to die to one hit 90% of the time, even with ECM, and I'd rather not bother spending those points there...

This. ECM bumps a CR90a up to 56 points on something that has weak damage output and very limited survivability. If I'm going to slap a seven point upgrade on them, it'll be TLRCs to really up their damage potential.

Because its still going to die to one hit 90% of the time, even with ECM, and I'd rather not bother spending those points there...

This. ECM bumps a CR90a up to 56 points on something that has weak damage output and very limited survivability. If I'm going to slap a seven point upgrade on them, it'll be TLRCs to really up their damage potential.

For 56 points with TRC's though, lookout!

Sure. If you assume the CR90 always gets to use the redirect and the Raider never gets to use the brace. Which is a pretty disingenuous argument.

Is it? The CR-90 can take ECMs. In a universe with Home One handing out accuracy to everyone, for 7 points you can make sure you have the needed token while the Raider can't. AND you have Mon-Mothma to make damage disappear at medium range. (While CR-90s are still effective at long ranges, where their evades still cancel dice just fine) I mean what else are you going to put on the CR-90s, Cluster Bombs? Why would you ever take a CR-90 without giving it ECM?

I wouldn't take ECMs on a CR90 for the same reason I would never take ECMs on an MC30. Redundant tokens make it pretty unnecessary. Sure, occasionally you'll get shut down, but I would rather have more ships/squadrons than a redirect one time when I needed it. Seven points is a ton to dump onto one ship. The best way to keep a CR90 alive is do navigate orders.

I can agree with the MC30s (Honestly the Titles alone is the best defensive thing for them), but the CR-90 has only one redirect, and it has to be protected if you're serious about using CR-90s for more than just a distraction. The CR-90s have redundancy in evades but not in Redirects. If you're not taking Mothma, you should take ECMs.

I should probably point out again that all these defensive options for the Rebels is still nothing the Raider has access to. CR-90s can take these defensive options, but the Raider can't. What you see is what you get, and anything over three points of damage in one arc will drop the shields.

Because its still going to die to one hit 90% of the time, even with ECM, and I'd rather not bother spending those points there...

This. ECM bumps a CR90a up to 56 points on something that has weak damage output and very limited survivability. If I'm going to slap a seven point upgrade on them, it'll be TLRCs to really up their damage potential.

Well, then you're going to have to accept losing out on the redirect if there's accuracy out there. Though if you have Mon Mothma you're at least causing re-rolls on damage even at close range. Raider still can't do that. Again, CR-90 has options. The Raider does not.

Okay, I'll bite.

Is it?

Yes.

I would never, ever waste the points to put ECM on a CR90. Nobody would. I can't think of any number of points that would make me want to do that, even in a vacuum where I didn't want an upgrade elsewhere in the fleet.

If I found myself with 7 points left over with a CR90B in my fleet, I'd use it to bid harder for first to make sure it could hit and run.

At 15, I'd use it to take SW-7's and a bid.

At 20, I'd upgrade to an A with TRC and a bid.

At 30, I'd take a pair of fighters and SW-7's.

At 35, I'd scrape off an upgrade somewhere else to fit another CR90B.

I cannot imagine a scenario in which 7 points would be well-spent on a marginal survivability increase to a very cheap ship. Even if I was absolutely guaranteed to be going up against Home One. What's more, I've never seen anyone else who did so. Because it would be silly.

Of course ECM would be much better on a Raider. Because the Raider has a brace. Which is a better defense token. And it's more expensive. And hits harder. That's why the Raider doesn't have the slot. You can go on all day about how the Raider would be awesome if only it had ECM and Mon Mothma and this and that in addition to all the options it does have that the CR90 lacks. Just like I could go on all day about great the CR90 would be if it could defend itself from squadrons and roll blacks and be able to benefit from an auto-crit admiral with APT or ACM.

The ships are different. On purpose. If you want to fly raiders that are actually CR90s, play rebels and proxy your CR90's with Raider models.

I will say an ecm on jainas light that is hiding your admiral is feasible but otherwise yea it isn't smart to put ECM on a cr90

I will say an ecm on jainas light that is hiding your admiral is feasible but otherwise yea it isn't smart to put ECM on a cr90

You make a fair point, but I'd still probably put engine techs on there before ECM. My rationale is that a corvette lives and dies by positioning, not by being strong and weathering shots. Redirect is far too easily and commonly countered by XI7 to make the investment more worthwhile than the ability to gtfo better. In my book.

I will say an ecm on jainas light that is hiding your admiral is feasible but otherwise yea it isn't smart to put ECM on a cr90

You make a fair point, but I'd still probably put engine techs on there before ECM. My rationale is that a corvette lives and dies by positioning, not by being strong and weathering shots. Redirect is far too easily and commonly countered by XI7 to make the investment more worthwhile than the ability to gtfo better. In my book.

I'd agree with this, if I am shooting a Corvette it's either at long range, with something using an X17, and its evades are the issue, or its getting a Demolisher broadside at PBR and no amount of redirecting is going to save it.

I have played a lot of games now as an Imperial, and been to 4 tournaments on top of that, and I have yet to see a single person put an ECM on a Corvette, I just do not see the point of it, either its far enough away to barely do anything to, or its dying at close range.

I hear people say that the Raider is a flanker...it sure is...but it is also a good BLOCKER. It dies mighty fast, is true, which is why you need to time your strike well...killing one charging Raider is easy...but what happens when you're suddenly facing a mass of 1 ISD-I, 1 Demolisher, 2 Raider-Is, all of them suddenly at black range of your fleet? And the man opposite you is first player? Who do you shoot at?

That's what Ozzel does...he lets you loiter or rush as needed.

I will say an ecm on jainas light that is hiding your admiral is feasible but otherwise yea it isn't smart to put ECM on a cr90

You make a fair point, but I'd still probably put engine techs on there before ECM. My rationale is that a corvette lives and dies by positioning, not by being strong and weathering shots. Redirect is far too easily and commonly countered by XI7 to make the investment more worthwhile than the ability to gtfo better. In my book.

I will say an ecm on jainas light that is hiding your admiral is feasible but otherwise yea it isn't smart to put ECM on a cr90

You make a fair point, but I'd still probably put engine techs on there before ECM. My rationale is that a corvette lives and dies by positioning, not by being strong and weathering shots. Redirect is far too easily and commonly countered by XI7 to make the investment more worthwhile than the ability to gtfo better. In my book.

you know xi-7 isn't that good against a corveete. I mean it can only redirect a maximum of 2...

Right, but we're talking about damage differences of 1's and 2's here. A CR90 dies to an 8-damage single shot; an accuracy drops that to 6; ECM pushes it back to 8; and XI7 drops it back down to 7. All I'm saying is that if I've decided I'm spending points to try and boost a CR90's survivability for some reason, an Engine Tech out of Demolisher's reach or an ISD's front arc makes a much bigger difference than the 1-2 damage you're shaving off with the similarly-costed ECM.

Pretty much as you say, they are great stopping ships jumping past your main ship into it's weaker arcs, and yep it gets full use of its evades at this engagement range, adding to its longevity as an effective deterrent.

All it takes is a little practice to get used to close in maneuvering, and looking at the board, the opponents ships, what speed they are at etc etc, and giving yourself an area of potential for them to end up in, and then placing the raiders in the optimum area to deter the move.

I hope Steel Squadron HQ posts up an article on escorts... I mean it is run by Biggs after all, that was his entire contribution to episode IV!

Okay, I'll bite.

Is it?

Yes.

I would never, ever waste the points to put ECM on a CR90. Nobody would. I can't think of any number of points that would make me want to do that, even in a vacuum where I didn't want an upgrade elsewhere in the fleet.

We're just going to have to disagree on this, because I can't ever take rebel ships (especially mass CR-90s) without enhancing their protection. If it's mothma, I don't need to lean on Redirects. Anyone else, if corvettes are a key part of my strategy, I like being able to mitigate damage on a facing arc. I don't mind spending the points to guarantee I can do this, especially with Home One out there. The only way I'll be convinced otherwise is by practicality in a game, and my experience so far says ECMs or Mothma if CR-90s are important in my list.

I also wouldn't take Bs. If I did, it would be with SW-7s under Mothma so they can get into effective range, yes for cheap. I wouldn't need redirect there because I can still cancel uncomfortable hits, or if I felt crazy re-roll the accuracy.

I've flown three CR-90As with TRCs, Intel Officers, and ECMs, accompanied by a pair of title-carrying MC30s. I was satisfied with their performance, the only way it could have been better is if I trusted my MC30s more and got them into the thick of combat while I used my CR-90s to pelt ships from long range with intel officer support pushing two damage or crits through.

The only effective use of ECM I've gotten is on a CR90B and you're fully in the side arc of a VSD, just tn ensure using your Redirect to tank 2 extra damage. but against anything above 3 dice, it's not that useful.