I think that it should be an Offensive Retrofit, but be Raider only. It would add incentive to take Raiders, allowing it to other ships, would, I think be non-thematic and overpowered.

I would think it would be about a 6 or 7 point upgrade.

Given you have no way of actually getting the card to players except through upcoming wave 3 or later releases which are definitely not Raiders, that is not a workable solution because including a Raider-only card with a non-Raider ship seems rather silly.

If you want to discuss this any further, though, it would probably be best to make a separate chain so we stop clogging up this one.

Shiptitles

This has exactly the same problem I already mentioned. Why would they include Raider title upgrades in a non-Raider ship pack? They wouldn't.

Good point. We need a special edition raider! Or a shiptitle pack. Or a lightsaber expansion with raider ship titles.

They could do something similar to Rebel/Imperial Aces. Re-release the Raider with a cool new paint scheme and a slew of new upgrades that make it more viable. You could even package it with a second small ship, like that little three-engine ship from Rebels.

I have also found issues with using just one raider with Instigator and OE to tie up squadrons in my 1 ISD1, 2 GSD, 1 Raider, 2 TIE fleet. So far in testing I have to keep it almost one speed on the maneuver tool behind the front of my ISD so it doesn't just die as soon as it gets in range of an ISD or MC80/AF2. This poses problems of getting it in range in time to tie up say a portion of a Rhymer ball or Rebel bombers as it lags behind beyond range 1 to make them engaged by Instigator. I either have to increase speed to 3 from 2 (ISD typically travelling at 2) to get to jump out in range but leaves it exposed to return fire. Either my opponent actives before I activate the raider and blows her up (I run a heavy demolisher GSD that I am typically activating first because I'm blowing up the carrier or another capital ship) or I activate the raider, do 1 round of antisquad fire but can only slow down to speed 2 and am out of the engagement with the squads and am now even close to the enemy line. Typically I only get a turn out of the raider when used like this. So far in testing it has worked in giving me enough time for my GSD and ISD1 to zoom ahead and blow up the rest of the enemies fleet but I don't feel I am getting the best out of the raider. Any tips on positioning/deployment to protect it yet still be able to get more shots off at squads? I have tested against my 1 ISD2, 1 VSD1, Rhymer/Fireball and its won both times as my 4 ships can blow up the enemies before the bombers sack all of my fleet.

I have also found issues with using just one raider with Instigator and OE to tie up squadrons in my 1 ISD1, 2 GSD, 1 Raider, 2 TIE fleet. So far in testing I have to keep it almost one speed on the maneuver tool behind the front of my ISD so it doesn't just die as soon as it gets in range of an ISD or MC80/AF2. This poses problems of getting it in range in time to tie up say a portion of a Rhymer ball or Rebel bombers as it lags behind beyond range 1 to make them engaged by Instigator. I either have to increase speed to 3 from 2 (ISD typically travelling at 2) to get to jump out in range but leaves it exposed to return fire. Either my opponent actives before I activate the raider and blows her up (I run a heavy demolisher GSD that I am typically activating first because I'm blowing up the carrier or another capital ship) or I activate the raider, do 1 round of antisquad fire but can only slow down to speed 2 and am out of the engagement with the squads and am now even close to the enemy line. Typically I only get a turn out of the raider when used like this. So far in testing it has worked in giving me enough time for my GSD and ISD1 to zoom ahead and blow up the rest of the enemies fleet but I don't feel I am getting the best out of the raider. Any tips on positioning/deployment to protect it yet still be able to get more shots off at squads? I have tested against my 1 ISD2, 1 VSD1, Rhymer/Fireball and its won both times as my 4 ships can blow up the enemies before the bombers sack all of my fleet.

If you simply want something to handle bombers, you need more fighters (I prefer TIE Fighters or Interceptors, but Aggressors can work too). Only 2 TIEs is insufficient to hold up those bombers (particularly with Intel) and they'll just blow through the Raider otherwise. The Raider's flak is often insufficient on its own to completely destroy squadrons. It needs friendly squadrons to weaken enemy squadrons before the attack and/or destroy them after the attack.

As an example, I would say a Raider-I with Ordnance Experts (48 points) is inferior to 6 squadrons of TIE Fighters (also 48 points) for taking out bombers. However, a Raider-I accompanying 6 squadrons of TIE Fighters is superior to 12 squadrons of TIE Fighters and also poses a larger threat to enemy ships than the TIEs do.

I have also found issues with using just one raider with Instigator and OE to tie up squadrons in my 1 ISD1, 2 GSD, 1 Raider, 2 TIE fleet. So far in testing I have to keep it almost one speed on the maneuver tool behind the front of my ISD so it doesn't just die as soon as it gets in range of an ISD or MC80/AF2. This poses problems of getting it in range in time to tie up say a portion of a Rhymer ball or Rebel bombers as it lags behind beyond range 1 to make them engaged by Instigator. I either have to increase speed to 3 from 2 (ISD typically travelling at 2) to get to jump out in range but leaves it exposed to return fire. Either my opponent actives before I activate the raider and blows her up (I run a heavy demolisher GSD that I am typically activating first because I'm blowing up the carrier or another capital ship) or I activate the raider, do 1 round of antisquad fire but can only slow down to speed 2 and am out of the engagement with the squads and am now even close to the enemy line. Typically I only get a turn out of the raider when used like this. So far in testing it has worked in giving me enough time for my GSD and ISD1 to zoom ahead and blow up the rest of the enemies fleet but I don't feel I am getting the best out of the raider. Any tips on positioning/deployment to protect it yet still be able to get more shots off at squads? I have tested against my 1 ISD2, 1 VSD1, Rhymer/Fireball and its won both times as my 4 ships can blow up the enemies before the bombers sack all of my fleet.

If you simply want something to handle bombers, you need more fighters (I prefer TIE Fighters or Interceptors, but Aggressors can work too). Only 2 TIEs is insufficient to hold up those bombers (particularly with Intel) and they'll just blow through the Raider otherwise. The Raider's flak is often insufficient on its own to completely destroy squadrons. It needs friendly squadrons to weaken enemy squadrons before the attack and/or destroy them after the attack.

As an example, I would say a Raider-I with Ordnance Experts (48 points) is inferior to 6 squadrons of TIE Fighters (also 48 points) for taking out bombers. However, a Raider-I accompanying 6 squadrons of TIE Fighters is superior to 12 squadrons of TIE Fighters and also poses a larger threat to enemy ships than the TIEs do.

I agree with you that more fighters would be better flak vs fighters but then it takes away the point of my list with the 4 activation's. I rely on getting 1st player and then hopefully having activation advantage as most fleets I am seeing have 3 or less ships. I would really prefer 5 activation's like Clon's but I can't afford a 5th by using an ISD1. The 2 TIEs are only there to tie up some bombers for 1 round of shooting.

My 'go to' IF I field a Raider right now is

Raider-I, Instigator, Ordnance Experts and 4 x Aggressor, but I am going to drop an Aggressor and try Bossk next.

(It's still the squadrons doing the work, but Instigator can hold the swarm up for another turn after the fighters go down or if Intel is in play.... )

I agree with you that more fighters would be better flak vs fighters but then it takes away the point of my list with the 4 activation's. I rely on getting 1st player and then hopefully having activation advantage as most fleets I am seeing have 3 or less ships. I would really prefer 5 activation's like Clon's but I can't afford a 5th by using an ISD1. The 2 TIEs are only there to tie up some bombers for 1 round of shooting.

Please understand that this is not said snidely, but if your list is not working as it is then the "point" of it seems kind of secondary. If you want your Raider to do anti-squadron work for you, then you'll either need more squadrons for it to work with or you'd need a fast fleet with numerous Raiders/flak like clontrooper's.

I'm trying to focus on lists taking pure Bombers or a Bomber/Advanced mix. Given that, Ruthless Strategists and OE on a Raider could deal out significant damage. It wouldn't work with Fighters or Interceptors, because you don't want to put damage on a 3 Hull squadron, but the beefier bombers and advanceds should work well for that. Three damage per enemy squadron per turn is pretty harsh.

The issue is, to fit it in I'll have to take something else out.

I am happy with my ISD1, Demolisher (flag), Instigator, Impetuous and Dengar+4 bobis. I play it with Ozzel and it is really fun.

I decimate enemy squadrons and if they shoot my raiders I'll be happy... It means they are not shooting my ISD or the fireball

What I do? I am not sure. I take care about dangerous enemy arcs and I make the sacrifice if is needed but with first player (bet of 10) and activation advantage I feel confident.

Wish I knew what 'bobis' are. Sounds like fun (related to boobies maybe?).

Wish I knew what 'bobis' are. Sounds like fun (related to boobies maybe?).

Wish I knew what 'bobis' are. Sounds like fun (related to boobies maybe?).

actually they are tiny Bob the builders hence "Bob"ies and they are extremely annoying and build Over the top list due to a inferiority complex

Is that so? Didn't know Bob was into Armada. That's cool - my son loved Bob when he was little. I love Armada.

The Circle is Now Complete.

I'd have to assume they're Firesprays (little Boba Fetts, I guess?).

This is why slang is generally bad for comprehension, though.

I'd have to assume they're Firesprays (little Boba Fetts, I guess?).

This is why slang is generally bad for comprehension, though.

Yes, my apologies. And they were 3 actually XD

Good point. We need a special edition raider! Or a shiptitle pack. Or a lightsaber expansion with raider ship titles.

Or they could make a universal upgrade card and limit it to small ships.

TheEasternKing, that was a great write up. Literally escort duty that stops first turn activators getting a cheeky hit and run on your main ship(s), genius.

I guess after the initial engagement and the faster ships have committed to their course you can pounce forward on any unsupported or slower ships. As a rear/flank escort its in a more appropriate spot to use the evades too. I like the interaction with a VSD1, if you avoid the black dice from that you go straight into the raiders.

Good point. We need a special edition raider! Or a shiptitle pack. Or a lightsaber expansion with raider ship titles.

Or they could make a universal upgrade card and limit it to small ships.

TheEasternKing, that was a great write up. Literally escort duty that stops first turn activators getting a cheeky hit and run on your main ship(s), genius.

I guess after the initial engagement and the faster ships have committed to their course you can pounce forward on any unsupported or slower ships. As a rear/flank escort its in a more appropriate spot to use the evades too. I like the interaction with a VSD1, if you avoid the black dice from that you go straight into the raiders.

Pretty much as you say, they are great stopping ships jumping past your main ship into it's weaker arcs, and yep it gets full use of its evades at this engagement range, adding to its longevity as an effective deterrent.

All it takes is a little practice to get used to close in maneuvering, and looking at the board, the opponents ships, what speed they are at etc etc, and giving yourself an area of potential for them to end up in, and then placing the raiders in the optimum area to deter the move.

A pair of Raiders almost singlehandedly took down one of my MC80's today.

So stop this claptrap that Raiders are useless, they are dangerous little rats, which when handled properly has a nasty bite.

Forces Involved:

Rebel; 2x MC80 Garm, Tycho + 3 A-wings, Farlander + 3 B-wings. Losses: 2x MC80's and 1x B-wing

Imperial; 1x ISD Ozzel, 1x GSD, 2x Raiders, Dengar, IG88 + 1x Tie interceptor. Losses: 1x ISD Ozzel, 2x Raiders, Dengar, IG88 + 1x Tie interceptor.

It ended as a close and brutal fight, with heavy losses on both sides. Just as the Gods of War like it

A pair of Raiders almost singlehandedly took down one of my MC80's today.

So stop this claptrap that Raiders are useless, they are dangerous little rats, which when handled properly has a nasty bite.

Forces Involved:

Rebel; 2x MC80 Garm, Tycho + 3 A-wings, Farlander + 3 B-wings. Losses: 2x MC80's and 1x B-wing

Imperial; 1x ISD Ozzel, 1x GSD, 2x Raiders, Dengar, IG88 + 1x Tie interceptor. Losses: 1x ISD Ozzel, 2x Raiders, Dengar, IG88 + 1x Tie interceptor.

It ended as a close and brutal fight, with heavy losses on both sides. Just as the Gods of War like it

How were the raiders outfitted?

Had a fun game with Maturin today (vassal obviously):

Had 2 raider-Is, with both titles. With Ozzel commanding they did quite well I'd say. Got mileage out of both Instigator and Impetuous. Sort of full circle - my very first wave 2 fleet was 2xRaider-Is with Ozzel. Now I'm back where I started. Great fun.

Oh god, is there a TL;DR version?

Next time just don't respond. It isn't cool or funny to type TL;DR, but instead the complete opposite. It exposes so many deficiencies with your character they can't be counted. We just don't need or want to be reminded of your ADHD problems or your smug need to belittle those who can actually communicate using sentences and paragraphs instead of grunts and other caveman-like crap. Don't be a Neanderthal...evolve. Please spare us your stupid TL;DR responses from now on which do nothing more than point out what an intellectual imp you are. Of course, the oh so funny response to my post will be predictably TL;DR.

When you interject with meaningless responses like TL....(crap I got to once again switch functions on the keyboard to type an extra pointless semi colon for the acronym because you imps were too stupid to make a more efficient one)....we find just find ourselves just another meaningless soul who hopefully hits a telephone pole while tweeting about his lunch to remove the world from another body just wasting resources. Let me at least help you....it is now TLDR not TL;DR--see how much time I saved you. You might not hit that telephone poll afterall now using Facebook while driving because I spared you some time with your eyes off the road.

I disagree with the OP's rant, but this constant millennial TL;DR crap has gotta stop. It you don't have the time or inclination for involved discourse, just move on for Pete's sake. Nobody needs your thought on the matter...not one single soul. The attention span of you TLDR kids is terrible and pointing out your ADHD with your calling card TLDR (yes remove the stupid semi colon at least numb nuts) tells the world you're proud to have ADHD and possess not just apathy toward your defect but pride. The lack of TLDR Millennials willing to read arguments in the New Yorker, The Economist, The Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, NY Times, The Atlantic Monthly etc. is what is ruining this country. Most of you TLDRers are completely incapable of formulating a sensible, informed aurgument backed up by facts. You all seem to need two minute sound bits to function. Your favorite form of communication is pictures with one sentence or two on Facebook to communicate your ideas. Unfortunately, you think that radio talk shows' or news shows' sound bits pass for knowledge because you don't understand the difference. Unfortunately, both the world's and our nation's problems can't be explain to you uneducated, entitled TLDR brats in two minutes. Worse, you actually think by not reading that you are still somehow entitled to an opinion. You TLDR millennials with your **** TLDR remind everyone why Americans are increasingly getting more stupid--not like we were all that smart to begin with as the comparative statistics easily demonstrate--and there is no freaking hope for our future. You just can't pay attention, and the worst part is that your constant, smug response of TLDR is an everlasting reminder to the rest of us that you'll never evolve because all the video games, energy drinks, tablets, cellphones, texting, tweeting, it's cool to not have a clue attitude, and other constant distractions, etc. Your ADHD is becoming a shared experience and embedded in your programming already at this point. In a way, it isn't your fault; all that technology and the dumbed down media pander and cater to your deficiencies which in turn create a positive feedback loop where you are made to feel like you are being informed when all along it was all just a ruse to help you feel you were getting information when in reality you never got the intricacies of the aurgument/position, just surface crap.

TLDR is nothing but a celebration of mediocrity, ADHD, apathy, and stupidity. Grow up. Get a new acronym worthy of saying something. If you can't do that at least move on to TLDR from TL;DR so that there is at least one less character we have to read from you...one less character reminding us your wasting oxygen.

Cheers

Oh god, is there a TL;DR version?

Next time just don't respond. It isn't cool or funny to type TL;DR, but instead the complete opposite. It exposes so many deficiencies with your character they can't be counted. We just don't need or want to be reminded of your ADHD problems or your smug need to belittle those who can actually communicate using sentences and paragraphs instead of grunts and other caveman-like crap. Don't be a Neanderthal...evolve. Please spare us your stupid TL;DR responses from now on which do nothing more than point out what an intellectual imp you are. Of course, the oh so funny response to my post will be predictably TL;DR.

When you interject with meaningless responses like TL....(crap I got to once again switch functions on the keyboard to type an extra pointless semi colon for the acronym because you imps were too stupid to make a more efficient one)....we find just find ourselves just another meaningless soul who hopefully hits a telephone pole while tweeting about his lunch to remove the world from another body just wasting resources. Let me at least help you....it is now TLDR not TL;DR--see how much time I saved you. You might not hit that telephone poll afterall now using Facebook while driving because I spared you some time with your eyes off the road.

I disagree with the OP's rant, but this constant millennial TL;DR crap has gotta stop. It you don't have the time or inclination for involved discourse, just move on for Pete's sake. Nobody needs your thought on the matter...not one single soul. The attention span of you TLDR kids is terrible and pointing out your ADHD with your calling card TLDR (yes remove the stupid semi colon at least numb nuts) tells the world you're proud to have ADHD and possess not just apathy toward your defect but pride. The lack of TLDR Millennials willing to read arguments in the New Yorker, The Economist, The Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, NY Times, The Atlantic Monthly etc. is what is ruining this country. Most of you TLDRers are completely incapable of formulating a sensible, informed aurgument backed up by facts. You all seem to need two minute sound bits to function. Your favorite form of communication is pictures with one sentence or two on Facebook to communicate your ideas. Unfortunately, you think that radio talk shows' or news shows' sound bits pass for knowledge because you don't understand the difference. Unfortunately, both the world's and our nation's problems can't be explain to you uneducated, entitled TLDR brats in two minutes. Worse, you actually think by not reading that you are still somehow entitled to an opinion. You TLDR millennials with your **** TLDR remind everyone why Americans are increasingly getting more stupid--not like we were all that smart to begin with as the comparative statistics easily demonstrate--and there is no freaking hope for our future. You just can't pay attention, and the worst part is that your constant, smug response of TLDR is an everlasting reminder to the rest of us that you'll never evolve because all the video games, energy drinks, tablets, cellphones, texting, tweeting, it's cool to not have a clue attitude, and other constant distractions, etc. Your ADHD is becoming a shared experience and embedded in your programming already at this point. In a way, it isn't your fault; all that technology and the dumbed down media pander and cater to your deficiencies which in turn create a positive feedback loop where you are made to feel like you are being informed when all along it was all just a ruse to help you feel you were getting information when in reality you never got the intricacies of the aurgument/position, just surface crap.

TLDR is nothing but a celebration of mediocrity, ADHD, apathy, and stupidity. Grow up. Get a new acronym worthy of saying something. If you can't do that at least move on to TLDR from TL;DR so that there is at least one less character we have to read from you...one less character reminding us your wasting oxygen.

Cheers

Wow I'm sorry but when I first read this I also thought the OP was really long. (And I am MUCH older than a millennial.)

I'm not sure it deserved this level of harshness. I think you need some fresh air?

The cliff notes is that he didn't need to say it was long, just move on and say nothing. But instead he had to be rude and insert himself into the conversation while adding nothing. That is what these TLDRs do. I too thought it was long, but that was obvious and didn't need someone commenting on that fact just to get attention. All he had to do as move on, but TLDRs are people starving for attention and simply can't just move on because they think their opinion is so freaking important.

Wow I'm sorry but when I first read this I also thought the OP was really long. (And I am MUCH older than a millennial.)

I'm not sure it deserved this level of harshness. I think you need some fresh air?

I think the basic sentiment of "responding snidely with something vapid like 'TL;DR' does nobody any favors and makes you look like a jerk" is fair.

The actual format (which itself is overlong and ranty and comes across very crotchety "you dern millenials and you dern Americans and yer dern TLDR") is unfortunate.

You can make a legitimate argument that something is too bloated or rambling to really communicate a point efficiently and it should be streamlined. That's fair. It's just... "TL;DR" isn't really saying much about the original post so much as it's a negative comment about the respondent who didn't have the energy to actually read or comprehend the original post but apparently did feel the need to exert effort in letting us all know that they didn't feel like exerting effort for the thing the rest of us are talking about. It's a kind of "arrogance of shallowness" that's rather grating.

Had a fun game with Maturin today (vassal obviously):

Had 2 raider-Is, with both titles. With Ozzel commanding they did quite well I'd say. Got mileage out of both Instigator and Impetuous. Sort of full circle - my very first wave 2 fleet was 2xRaider-Is with Ozzel. Now I'm back where I started. Great fun.

And I think this really illustrates what makes this game so good. Nothing has changed, there have been no balance patches, no errata. But as we all grow into the game we find things we missed the first time around. Its like when you re-read a great book and you catch passages you didn't on the first go.