When the TLT upgrade first appeared there was a somewhat popular list that combined a 28 point Jake (VI/PTL/AT) with 3 Ys with TLTs. A couple of people played them in the TC aces league and you would have Morgan Reid finish 1st in Swiss and in top 4 of the Australian Nationals (quite a big tourney) in the fall. Then over the last 3 months or so I haven´t seen this list appear in any tournament report or on the juggler. TLTs are as popular as ever and 4 Thugs win tournaments quite regularly. There are variation lists with Hwks like Torkhil or Palob but the list including Jake disappeared.

Do you think Jake (VI/PTL/AT/) plus 3 TLT Ys make a good list?

Do you think Jake (VI/PTL/AT/) plus 3 TLT Ys make a good list?

No, because I don't think there's good evidence for this:

...4 Thugs win tournaments quite regularly.

It might be anecdotal, but at least regionally I've seen this list crash and burn fairly often. It seems to have a fairly high floor but a fairly low ceiling--most experienced players have a plan for dealing with TLTs, and there are a number of things that counter them pretty effectively.

Swapping one TLT out for Jake helps with some of the weaknesses of 4x TLTs, but I think you get a better overall look out of 1-2x TLTs combined with something completely different.

I've got a feeling that Jake+3xTLT was a reaction to 4xTLT. Since that list has died down in popularity so has the variation that brought Jake to deal with it.

Without Proton Prockets Jake doesn't seem to have enough punch to get damage to stick to the likes of Poe and Corran who are both going to out arc dodge him (assuming VI on both).

I've got a feeling that Jake+3xTLT was a reaction to 4xTLT. Since that list has died down in popularity so has the variation that brought Jake to deal with it.

Without Proton Prockets Jake doesn't seem to have enough punch to get damage to stick to the likes of Poe and Corran who are both going to out arc dodge him (assuming VI on both).

Definitely true. Also VI Vader causes Jake some trouble, as do stress control ships and especially Carnor Jax.

I also think that either you go real cheap on Jake with just Chardaan, VI and AT, or you take the full package with Prockets and 2 Elite talents.

All in all i also have to say that TLTs are really potent and often seen, but like Vorpal says the real hardcore spam 4YTLT list are not that dominant and don't seem to actually win that much either. So in most good Rebel or Scum lists there is a TLT, but they ate also clever enough to not only rely on them. Mixing them in seems to be the key here!

But Jake is perhaps not the best ship to do that with!

I think its a good list. 28pt Jake is an awesome value. I think the issue is that people who fly arc dodgers dont like mass tlt's and people who mass tlt cant fly. ;p

people who mass tlt cant fly

^{[citation needed]}

Not a fan of naked TLT y

Too slow, too dicey

Stresshog or r4 scum is hell yeah, but just vanilla has proven routinely too easy to outmaneuver or autothrust

Really not buying the TLT craze. It's s GREAT upgrade that makes the K a beast with tactician, but it hasn't have even close to the apocalyptic effect of the pre-errata phantom

Also poor Jake can't handle contemporary aces without prickets

Probably because of The A-wings perception in the competitive scene... It seems few people fly them in general nowadays. Also looking at the top 4 from worlds this past fall, It makes the T-70 very popular choice, even if some A-wings such as Jake could fill the roll just as well.

people who mass tlt cant fly

^{[citation needed]}

Just look at the total lack of flying skill on the guy with the all TLT list in this match.

I actually consider it to still be quite an excellent list, with the slight change of:

26 Jake w/ PtL, VI, Refit, Test.

26 Gold w/ TLT, R3A2, BTL-A4.

48 (2x) Gold w/ TLT.

You lose AT on Jake, but that's not the biggest deal when you gain the mighty stress-hog. It's quite a formidable list with very few bad match-ups.

people who mass tlt cant fly

^{[citation needed]}

Just look at the total lack of flying skill on the guy with the all TLT list in this match.

Anecdotal evidence best evidence.

I think the argument refers purely to the 4TLT y list which has a low skill floor and (relatively) low skill ceiling. As has been discussed here ALOT.

Certainly i dont think Aaron Bonars triple K list qualifies, it's quite the opposite really.

One of the biggest issues with quad tlt or jake + 3TLT's is that the mov is not that great so you won't make the lower top cut that ffg has suggested in the tournament faq update. Also, a boosting ace has little trouble getting behind them into range 1. When they were popular in my area I brought quad tempst with accuracy corrector and cluster missiles and then they died off as they have a hard time against the quad tempest list.

In Morgan's own words I believe he said he didn't bring it to World's just because it wasn't very fun to fly.

We must replace it with the true Ace of Aces: Psycho Celchu

Tycho Celchu (26)

Push the Limit (3)

Chardaan Refit (-2)

Daredevil (3)

Experimental Interface (3)

A-Wing Test Pilot (0)

Miranda Doni (29)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Extra Munitions (2)

C-3PO (3)

Seismic Charges (2)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Bandit Squadron Pilot (12)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Who's with me?!

I don't think it has "disappeared" so much as the meta has become so diverse it is lost in the noise. Sure, it could work and is still a strong list, but in a world with so many good options everyone wants to fly something uniquely theirs. Or alternately, when you have things that work as well or better than 4 Y-TLT but are more entertaining for them to fly people will opt for the alternatives. Folks who are looking for a list with a lower skill floor can fly 4-TLT, and folks looking for dodgy ships can fly Sith Lords, it's less likely you will find someone who wishes to combine both.

Folks who are looking for a list with a lower skill floor can fly 4-TLT, and folks looking for dodgy ships can fly Sith Lords, it's less likely you will find someone who wishes to combine both.

It would actually surprise me if that were true. I would think that most people would want a list that is a hybrid of the two. Having a few solid performing pieces that are tolerant of mistakes paired with some higher skill elements seems like it's what most people are looking for when building lists.

The number of lists that are one extreme (4 x TLT) or the other (your Six Sigma squad or Triple Interceptors) aren't the majority of lists that I see on tables.