It seems to me that one of the problems for bomber-centric lists is that a decent portion of your squadron points allocation must be spent on anti-squadron or getting past squadrons. Would it be possible to send out an all bomber squadron list with raiders as anti-squadron and an imp-ii? Then do Rhymer, firesprays, and bombers.
Are people already doing this? Would this work?
Here's my version of exactly that:
Admiral Motti - 24pts
Gunnery Team - 7pts
Boosted Comms - 4pts
Electronic Counter Measures - 7pts
XI-7 Turbolasers - 6pts
SW-7 Ion Batteries - 5pts
Raider-II - 48pts
Veteran Captain - 3pts
SW-7 Ion Batteries - 5pts
Raider-II - 48pts
Veteran Captain - 3pts
SW-7 Ion Batteries - 5pts
OBJECTIVES: Precision Strike, Fleet Ambush, Superior Positions
I'm not really sure several Raiders with their short anti-squadrons barrage range would be effective to defend pure bomber wings.
I've recently tried flying mixed wings with TIE Fighters and TIE Bombers in large numbers and I find them extremely effective in an all comers scenario. I might get a huge amount of flakk for saying this, but in the fluff there were rarely if ever pure Bomber Wings as a standard issue formation in the Imperial Navy. And I find that FFG does a pretty good job of replicating the fluff of Star Wars, so it might be a good source of inspiration.
From Wookieepedia : ISD 1s carried 60 fighters, spread into 48 TIE Fighters and 12 TIE Bombers (a 4 to 1 ratio).
For fun, I tried out despecializing my Imperial Fighter wings and I found that they really worked out interestingly, with an ISD and a VSD with EH both managing wings composed of 1 TIE A, 2 TIE F, 1 TIE B. I found that not only it became confusing for my opponent to prioritise each wing, but I also had plenty of opportunities in target selection, because even if they don't seem particularily impressive compared to dedicated fighters, we shouldn't underestimate TIE Fighter blue dice against ships when thrown in large numbers.
In squadron warfare : if the opponent intercepts the Bombers, I still have my TIE Fighters to throw good blue dice against his own squadrons. If he intercepts my Fighters, well I haven't lost the biggest anti-ship firepower of the wing.
This experience on the table led me to think that Imperial ships and squadrons were designed to manage mixed wings, because otherwise the logistic support to run full Bombers/full Firepsrays gets very complicated to manage and requires multiple ships pulling their ressources together.
How has it worked?
My idea has:
Title on a raider to tie down squadrons
2 tie fighters just in case
1 fewer firesprays and replace with bombers
I'm not really sure several Raiders with their short anti-squadrons barrage range would be effective to defend pure bomber wings.
I've recently tried flying mixed wings with TIE Fighters and TIE Bombers in large numbers and I find them extremely effective in an all comers scenario. I might get a huge amount of flakk for saying this, but in the fluff there were rarely if ever pure Bomber Wings as a standard issue formation in the Imperial Navy. And I find that FFG does a pretty good job of replicating the fluff of Star Wars, so it might be a good source of inspiration.
From Wookieepedia : ISD 1s carried 60 fighters, spread into 48 TIE Fighters and 12 TIE Bombers (a 4 to 1 ratio).
For fun, I tried out despecializing my Imperial Fighter wings and I found that they really worked out interestingly, with an ISD and a VSD with EH both managing wings composed of 1 TIE A, 2 TIE F, 1 TIE B. I found that not only it became confusing for my opponent to prioritise each wing, but I also had plenty of opportunities in target selection, because even if they don't seem particularily impressive compared to dedicated fighters, we shouldn't underestimate TIE Fighter blue dice against ships when thrown in large numbers.
In squadron warfare : if the opponent intercepts the Bombers, I still have my TIE Fighters to throw good blue dice against his own squadrons. If he intercepts my Fighters, well I haven't lost the biggest anti-ship firepower of the wing.
This experience on the table led me to think that Imperial ships and squadrons were designed to manage mixed wings, because otherwise the logistic support to run full Bombers/full Firepsrays gets very complicated to manage and requires multiple ships pulling their ressources together.
I have used all tie fighter lists well in the past. The blue dice are not to be underestimated against ships. They strip shields pretty well.
I have used all tie fighter lists well in the past. The blue dice are not to be underestimated against ships. They strip shields pretty well.
Indeed, opponents often disregard them and that's their first mistakes. Which is why sprinkling in a TIE B for any 2 or 3 TIE F depending on the carrier is a pretty interesting move to help with reliability against ships without sacrificing too much anti squadron firepower (after all, a TIE B has great chances of throwing 1 damage in a squadron fight, and will probably take a pounding before going down).
I have used all tie fighter lists well in the past. The blue dice are not to be underestimated against ships. They strip shields pretty well.
Indeed, opponents often disregard them and that's their first mistakes. Which is why sprinkling in a TIE B for any 2 or 3 TIE F depending on the carrier is a pretty interesting move to help with reliability against ships without sacrificing too much anti squadron firepower (after all, a TIE B has great chances of throwing 1 damage in a squadron fight, and will probably take a pounding before going down).
I used dengar, howl, and 8 fighters. It kills squadrons pretty fast and then can hit some ships. Putting some bombers in may have some value there. Will have to try it.
God, that is some pretty brutal anti-squadron setup you had 
It'd be awesome if you could try it and report on your feelings ! I've only had 2 games with such a set up yet and will clock a 3rd one tomorrow, but I was pretty happy with the results : even though it seems unremarkable and doesn't have the threat effect a Rhymer ball can have, it's actually quite efficient on the tabletop from where I stand.
Also, because it's not as threatening, other commanders will let it go and throw everything on the ships. a VSD and an ISD can tank a round of squadron activations before mauling the opposing fleet 
It's worked out for me well thus far. The trick is to maximize flexibility to allow you do deal with whatever situation pops into your system. Here are my thoughts on squadrons specifically as relating to my experience with the Fireball, although there might be material applicable to Bomber wings in general:
-Numbers are your best bet in order to trap the ball, bar none, but at the same time you want to make sure you won't be giving them a fair trade in points.
-People say the Firespray isn't a good anti-squad, but they're wrong. It's not the BEST[coughIG88cough] but it is far from the worst. Three Blue is respectable, and six hull plus a counter from Dengar makes them more vicious than people give them credit for.
-Your instinct is to go for Rhymer or Dengar first, which is understandable - if you have to, go for Dengar. Killing Rhymer will take enough time to get your ships close enough that his bonus is a moot point. I guarantee it.
-If you have minimal squadrons, engage and destroy the Firesprays/Bombers first. They're the real threat - everyone else is just powering them up.
Otherwise, I love it. If you check out my last Batrep you can watch in the pictures as he literally avoids the Firesprays as if they were capital ships. I lost them all that game, but they earned their points back.
I've been struggling with a satisfying bomber wing that also won't get tied (har har) down by enemy squadrons. I was debating a Bomber/Advanced mix. The Advanced has the same hull as a bomber plus Escort, and is also throwing one black die against ships. It can't get that double damage of a hit/crit, or activate a critical effect, but it has a 75% chance of doing some damage and is slightly better in a fighter brawl.
Or is it better just to take a TIE Fighter swarm? They don't have escort, but your opponent can ignore the fighters at their own peril. TIE Fighters surrounding Rhymer still get to throw their blue dice out at Medium Range. While the likelihood of damage drops from 75% to 50%, it'll serve better against enemy fighters. The big risk is that the three hull is very susceptible to flak from ships.
I've been struggling with a satisfying bomber wing that also won't get tied (har har) down by enemy squadrons. I was debating a Bomber/Advanced mix. The Advanced has the same hull as a bomber plus Escort, and is also throwing one black die against ships. It can't get that double damage of a hit/crit, or activate a critical effect, but it has a 75% chance of doing some damage and is slightly better in a fighter brawl.
Or is it better just to take a TIE Fighter swarm? They don't have escort, but your opponent can ignore the fighters at their own peril. TIE Fighters surrounding Rhymer still get to throw their blue dice out at Medium Range. While the likelihood of damage drops from 75% to 50%, it'll serve better against enemy fighters. The big risk is that the three hull is very susceptible to flak from ships.
The Advanced is definitely the better choice, due to more hull, escort, better anti-ship power, but it comes at 1.5x the price of a regular TIE Fighter and these add up quickly in larger scale. So budget matters are going to determine whether or not Advanced are possible.
My rule of thumb is that when the squadrons are managed by ships with copious amounts of squadron activations, I tend to go with numbers rather than quality, but when I'm using ships with 1 or 2 squadron activations, I tend to go more elite with the squadrons. I'd rather have additional dice for a higher chance of damage. I like a lone TIE A with a Raider to provide support to the rest of the fighters when needed or go to ships, or an Interceptor with a Raider 2. With a low amount of squadrons to activate through commands, Aces are an even tastier prospect.
In regards to your second half : sometimes offering the opponent with choices is more interesting than forcing his hand, if you can take advantage of these choices. For example, I'd rather have him take down a Bomber squadron than an Advanced with his squadrons, because I'll be losing less anti-squadron value that I can use to get more points from killing his squadrons. Or lose a single TIE Fighter for 8 points which is no big deal really.
On flakk ships : it's tempting to kill squadrons when they are bunched up, but perhaps that means losing out on the anti-ship power. If all the squadrons are bunched up in the front arc of a Neb B, it's a tough call to make. From my experience fighting with and against 5-6hp squadrons, the AA dice is not enough on its own and works better when supported by squadrons to help finish off opposition.
I have used all tie fighter lists well in the past. The blue dice are not to be underestimated against ships. They strip shields pretty well.
Indeed, opponents often disregard them and that's their first mistakes. Which is why sprinkling in a TIE B for any 2 or 3 TIE F depending on the carrier is a pretty interesting move to help with reliability against ships without sacrificing too much anti squadron firepower (after all, a TIE B has great chances of throwing 1 damage in a squadron fight, and will probably take a pounding before going down).
I used dengar, howl, and 8 fighters. It kills squadrons pretty fast and then can hit some ships. Putting some bombers in may have some value there. Will have to try it.
Try mixing in Rhymer and 1-2 advanced (purely to have escort and run next to Rhymer to keep him alive). Then you have standard TIE fighters that project a single blue die to medium range. Yeah, they are 8 point gribblies. But yeah, 10 of those 8 point gribblies is down 5 expected damage on a ship per turn which is virtually immune to defense tokens via the saturation bombing method.
Throwing Rhymer in with what you think of as "anti-squadron" means that when you don't find any (or very few) squadrons to fight, you now have long range bombing capability that is more effective than people will realize because it can operate unhindered, and if you position it well, often without squadron commands thanks to Rhymer's range bubble.
On flakk ships : it's tempting to kill squadrons when they are bunched up, but perhaps that means losing out on the anti-ship power. If all the squadrons are bunched up in the front arc of a Neb B, it's a tough call to make. From my experience fighting with and against 5-6hp squadrons, the AA dice is not enough on its own and works better when supported by squadrons to help finish off opposition.
This exactly. Every AA shot against your fighters is not a shot against your ships.
Ruthless strategist and tonnes of Y's
The idea of bypassing the purpose built TIE bomber, and instead utilising a limited run, collectors item, system patrol craft as a bomber is just crazy cakes.
I know the Firespray is cool and all, but from a theme point of view taking more than 1 or 2 is really questionable.
Ruthless strategist and tonnes of Y's
Yup.
Im running a fleet right now with 12 Y's, one Hwk and Ruthless Strategist on 2 ships.
Do you think the Imperial opposite would work? A ton of Bombers, Rhymer, Dengar/Jumpmaster and RS on a few Vics? My concern is that you're going to spend a round or two blasting fighters, which means the bombers aren't performing their primary task and taking on ships. Plus your ships wouldn't be shooting at ships, either.
Help me understand the logic of not running squadrons at all and doing mostly Concentrate Fire commands. In my mind, blacks are the only dice worth adding to a ship's pool over a squadron activation unless you have upgrades that let you spend dice to adjust your final results.
An unengaged squadron effectively adds one or two dice to your pool with two limitations - accuracy's do nothing unless you have two dice and crits do nothing unless it's a Bomber. A Squadron command from a Squadron 3 ship in a Bomber-oriented list with Intel could mean 3 to 6 extra dice rather than the 1 extra die from Concentrate Fire. Even ships that I don't plan to be carriers will end up with Squadron commands near the end of the game.
Do you think the Imperial opposite would work? A ton of Bombers, Rhymer, Dengar/Jumpmaster and RS on a few Vics? My concern is that you're going to spend a round or two blasting fighters, which means the bombers aren't performing their primary task and taking on ships. Plus your ships wouldn't be shooting at ships, either.
Why not take those ruthless strategists on two raider-Is? They like blasting squadrons anyway, so you essentially dont "waste" attacks to trigger RS, but do what you do best. Backed up with 10 TIE bombers, Dengar and Rhymer, plus one ISD-II for tankiness would leave enough points for some upgrades to taste.
Help me understand the logic of not running squadrons at all and doing mostly Concentrate Fire commands. In my mind, blacks are the only dice worth adding to a ship's pool over a squadron activation unless you have upgrades that let you spend dice to adjust your final results.
An unengaged squadron effectively adds one or two dice to your pool with two limitations - accuracy's do nothing unless you have two dice and crits do nothing unless it's a Bomber. A Squadron command from a Squadron 3 ship in a Bomber-oriented list with Intel could mean 3 to 6 extra dice rather than the 1 extra die from Concentrate Fire. Even ships that I don't plan to be carriers will end up with Squadron commands near the end of the game.
Exactly, squadron commands become more valuable with larger ships and larger ships on their own simply don't have the numbers of attacks to make their points back without squadrons.
A CF Token works as well as a CF command when you're throwing 3 red dice or 4 blacks or blues because of the statistical chance of rolling blanks. It becomes less interesting proportionately on larger ships, but is quite interesting on smaller ships where a squadron command yields the same amount of dice as a CF command.
A CF Token works as well as a CF command when you're throwing 3 red dice or 4 blacks or blues because of the statistical chance of rolling blanks. It becomes less interesting proportionately on larger ships, but is quite interesting on smaller ships where a squadron command yields the same amount of dice as a CF command.
Defiance and Paragon say hi
A CF Token works as well as a CF command when you're throwing 3 red dice or 4 blacks or blues because of the statistical chance of rolling blanks. It becomes less interesting proportionately on larger ships, but is quite interesting on smaller ships where a squadron command yields the same amount of dice as a CF command.
Defiance and Paragon say hi
Well, titles are the exception
Still, even with Defiance and Paragon, I'd rather count on their squadron activations to add even more dice than a single extra black dice (Yes, I run Paragon as an AFMK2 B and use it to add shots at long range, I'm like that ).
It seems to me that one of the problems for bomber-centric lists is that a decent portion of your squadron points allocation must be spent on anti-squadron or getting past squadrons. Would it be possible to send out an all bomber squadron list with raiders as anti-squadron and an imp-ii? Then do Rhymer, firesprays, and bombers.
Are people already doing this? Would this work?
Hmmm... Intel?
You don't have to use the named intel boats (Dengar/Jan). The plain ones work perfectly well.
I like to fly with a crapload of TIE bombers: I'll shoot at enemy fighters if I have to (i.e. opponent took like 6 x-wings or 10 tie fighters and blew up my jumpmaster/advanced too fast) but usually I'm just trying to blow up the ships.
Sometimes I get scared of lists like my own and take 8 x-wings. If I kill all enemy squadrons, it's like I have another MC80 floating around that has xi7's and HTT's built in.
Help me understand the logic of not running squadrons at all and doing mostly Concentrate Fire commands. In my mind, blacks are the only dice worth adding to a ship's pool over a squadron activation unless you have upgrades that let you spend dice to adjust your final results.
An unengaged squadron effectively adds one or two dice to your pool with two limitations - accuracy's do nothing unless you have two dice and crits do nothing unless it's a Bomber. A Squadron command from a Squadron 3 ship in a Bomber-oriented list with Intel could mean 3 to 6 extra dice rather than the 1 extra die from Concentrate Fire. Even ships that I don't plan to be carriers will end up with Squadron commands near the end of the game.
The theory is that the points you spend on bombers translate into another ship.
So instead of 1 ship throwing some dice and moving some bombers, you have two ships, each of which is giving itself a CF order.
You also gain another activation.
The translation isn't perfect, since you'd need to save ~5 squadrons to include another ship instead, but whether you find the trade-off worthwhile or not, that's the logic behind it.
The theory is that the points you spend on bombers translate into another ship.
So instead of 1 ship throwing some dice and moving some bombers, you have two ships, each of which is giving itself a CF order.
You also gain another activation.
The translation isn't perfect, since you'd need to save ~5 squadrons to include another ship instead, but whether you find the trade-off worthwhile or not, that's the logic behind it.
Which makes sense until your ship with black dice gets destroyed in a single turn from average die rolls and an accuracy (I'm looking at you MC-30 and Raider especially.) With squadrons, I can get my black dice closer without putting a ship in real danger, especially with Boosted Comms. Yes, you have an advantage in ship activations, but there's only one target to change that dynamic.
I started experimenting with a couple build ideas today: ISD + 3x Raiders + Rhymer/Bomber/Firespray/Firespray/Dengar and Akbar MC-80 + 3x CR-90 + B-Wing/B-Wing/B-Wing/YT-1300/YT-1300. I made a couple mistakes with the latter list and still won against my opponent's 3-ship list with 4 YT-2400's for cover. I think A-Wings and X-Wings might be better though than that group.