The best way to kill a phantom you aren't a bigger ps than is the old fashioned throw dice at it. Sorry I'm sure its not what you wanted to hear. Green dice have a habbit of buckling so you just have to focus on it till it drops from weight of fire.

So not balanced then. Got it.

It's no longer at 15/10, it's just a 9 or 10/10 ship on the busted overpowered bull scale. It's still broken post-nerf, but it's about as broken as any other Acewing ship now.

All Acewing ships are like this. The way the game functioned in the golden age wave 3 meta where your ship moved once, maybe did one action, and maybe fired once are gone. It sucks but you can fly busted overpowered **** too.

I reccommend just flying similar squads but with larger initiative bids so that your cloaking Death Star phantom fires before theirs can cloak to save itself.

Whisper with Veteran Instincts, Fire Control System, Advanced Cloaking Device, and Gunner is 44 points.

Darth Vader with VI, X1 Title, Advanced Targeting Computer, Engine Upgrade, and Proton Rockets is 38 points.

Then fly either a PS 1 TIE FO at 97 points, or an Academy Pilot for 94 points.

Your Phantom fires first, so it should be able to do some work. If Vader gets into range 1 of something and can both TL and focus that's just 5/5 hits on something.

TIE Fighter is there to block things and to occasionally damage something with its bubble blower.

Seriously, I don't know why you even play the game.

When I show up to a $5 entry 3 round event and 12-14 players show up, 6 of them with identical VI Autothrusters Regen Poe Damerons, I'm not over-exaggerating things.

At the tournament I was at yesterday, I saw exactly 1 of 8 lists with Poe + Regen. I guess you could say that was a critical hit, but only if your pun brain is being as weird as mine.

I was told the phantom didn't ruin the game and didn't need to be nerfed, and to just, "get good and throw dice at it until it dies."

It didn't ruin the game, and even in the release state, it was beatable by throwing dice at it. Source? 2014 World Championships. And yes: It did need to be fixed a tiny bit. It didn't even get nerfed all that much, just a tiny correction to the decloak timing. It's still an amazingly versatile unit.

I was told that fat turrets weren't broken and required skill and didn't ruin the game.

Fat Turrets aren't broken and do require skill and didn't ruin the game. Fat ships were seeing an artificial buff from MOV rules. The same sort of artificial buff that TIE fighters had back in the first Wave of this game. We don't talk about TIE fighters having been nerfed.

Also: please don't confuse the Squint buff of AutoThrusters with a nerf to Large ships.

Now I'm being told I'm just over-exaggerating things when I say that TIE Fighters are just obsolescent soap bubbles or that the game right now is all about having higher Pilot Skill and boosting.

Imperial Veterans may well be an overcorrection that sees TIE Fighters become obsolete. I hope not, but the numbers seem compelling. They are not, however, currently obsolete. Try flying a 7 or 8 TIE swarm at some point and have fun. And yes: If you're flying a 3 or 4 ship list, you want at least one to be at PS 8 or above. That's... that's not a bad thing.

OP, many people on these forums want them to be an echo chamber of positivity, and will oppose people with valid complaints just because they're complaints, or because you didn't use euphemisms or a smarmy Alex Davy smile. An opinion being negative has no bearing on whether or not it's true.

I do, in fact, prefer positivity. I want people to be oriented around seeking solutions rather than moaning about problems. There's also... yes. There's ways to phrase things that are better. For instance: there are lots of discussions about the Scyk that talk about how it's just not _good_ enough. Those can be positive and constructive conversations about how we might fix the problem.

Many people looked at OP's list and told him how he could fly it better to ensure that he would be able to take down Whisper in the future. You told him that he needed to change his entire list because the game was no longer in its "golden age" and now things were bad. You were negative and objectively wrong. Not objectively wrong about when the game's golden age is (I think you're wrong, but it's subjective). Rather: you're objectively wrong in what he could have accomplished with the list he brought.

There is no point. The sky is always falling with ParaGoomba.

The best way to kill a phantom you aren't a bigger ps than is the old fashioned throw dice at it. Sorry I'm sure its not what you wanted to hear. Green dice have a habbit of buckling so you just have to focus on it till it drops from weight of fire.

So not balanced then. Got it.

It's no longer at 15/10, it's just a 9 or 10/10 ship on the busted overpowered bull scale. It's still broken post-nerf, but it's about as broken as any other Acewing ship now.

All Acewing ships are like this. The way the game functioned in the golden age wave 3 meta where your ship moved once, maybe did one action, and maybe fired once are gone. It sucks but you can fly busted overpowered **** too.

I reccommend just flying similar squads but with larger initiative bids so that your cloaking Death Star phantom fires before theirs can cloak to save itself.

Whisper with Veteran Instincts, Fire Control System, Advanced Cloaking Device, and Gunner is 44 points.

Darth Vader with VI, X1 Title, Advanced Targeting Computer, Engine Upgrade, and Proton Rockets is 38 points.

Then fly either a PS 1 TIE FO at 97 points, or an Academy Pilot for 94 points.

Your Phantom fires first, so it should be able to do some work. If Vader gets into range 1 of something and can both TL and focus that's just 5/5 hits on something.

TIE Fighter is there to block things and to occasionally damage something with its bubble blower.

Seriously, I don't know why you even play the game.

It would definitely be more pleasant around here if he didn't.

Seriously, I don't know why you even play the game.

I know more than one of us have wondered if he actually does play the game.

Of course the pre-nerf phantom died if you just threw dice at it. And the only way you could do that was with a ******* turret or by specifically hard countering with an even higher PS ship.

I play about 9 in-person games a week. I've installed Vassal but haven't bothered to figure it out yet. I have a complete 100 point set of every ship in the game. I love X-Wing and I play it a lot.

This is why I complain about it relentlessly. Because it's a fun game and I don't like seeing it ruined by turrets or pre-nerf phantoms. It'd be like if the classical station started playing Nickelback. "Hey man, stop complaining, Nickelback isn't /that/ bad. Beethoven's 6th sucks anyways, the radio station has much more variety now."

I could ask the same thing of all the (former) Turretwing players. How could you enjoy pointlessly maneuvering your ship around just throwing dice at each others turret and winning in the list building phase? Why even play the game if you're just going to ignore the manuever dial portion of it and decloak to wherever the hell you want to after you see where I move my ships? Seriously, I don't know why you even play the game.

What you describe as the golden age was a point in the games history where absurdly few of the ships, and even fewer of those pilots were competitively viable. The game boiled down to TIE Swarms and B-wings, mostly un-upgraded. What you talk about with nostalgic yearning was one of the low points of the game in pretty much everybody else's eyes.

What you describe as the golden age was a point in the games history where absurdly few of the ships, and even fewer of those pilots were competitively viable. The game boiled down to TIE Swarms and B-wings, mostly un-upgraded. What you talk about with nostalgic yearning was one of the low points of the game in pretty much everybody else's eyes.

That is when you actually had to be good at flying in order to win, not just having higher pilot skill and boosting or out turreting your opponent. When you actually had to point your ships at what they wanted to shoot at. I don't very much care that only a handful of ship types were viable becuase the way the game played back then was better as you didn't have some obnoxious indestructible 1 green to victory regen ship to deal with in every end game.

At the very least you have to admit it was better than wave 5 Turretwing dreck.

That is when you actually had to be good at flying in order to win, not just having higher pilot skill and boosting or out turreting your opponent. When you actually had to point your ships at what they wanted to shoot at.

I take issue with this.

I fly BroBots. I have no turrets, middling PS, only two firing arcs to work with, and no blockers to help me, and I've been killing higher-PS ships that have boost and/or turrets for more than a year now. What's your excuse?

That is when you actually had to be good at flying in order to win, not just having higher pilot skill and boosting or out turreting your opponent. When you actually had to point your ships at what they wanted to shoot at.

I take issue with this.

I fly BroBots. I have no turrets, middling PS, only two firing arcs to work with, and no blockers to help me, and I've been killing higher-PS ships that have boost and/or turrets for more than a year now. What's your excuse?

With cannon gunner and the action economy they have access to with FCS and Autothrusters, it isn't too hard to do. Every other maneuver with them is a sloop or a K-turn so you have things in arc with them most of the time and you don't super care what range they're at because HLC gunner FCS shenanigans.

They're super Joustwing ships that have enough broken Acewing aspects about them to get by. You wouldn't be saying this about quint Kirahxz or some other /actual/ Joustwing ship list.

Of course the pre-nerf phantom died if you just threw dice at it. And the only way you could do that was with a ******* turret or by specifically hard countering with an even higher PS ship.

I play about 9 in-person games a week. I've installed Vassal but haven't bothered to figure it out yet. I have a complete 100 point set of every ship in the game. I love X-Wing and I play it a lot.

This is why I complain about it relentlessly. Because it's a fun game and I don't like seeing it ruined by turrets or pre-nerf phantoms. It'd be like if the classical station started playing Nickelback. "Hey man, stop complaining, Nickelback isn't /that/ bad. Beethoven's 6th sucks anyways, the radio station has much more variety now."

I could ask the same thing of all the (former) Turretwing players. How could you enjoy pointlessly maneuvering your ship around just throwing dice at each others turret and winning in the list building phase? Why even play the game if you're just going to ignore the manuever dial portion of it and decloak to wherever the hell you want to after you see where I move my ships? Seriously, I don't know why you even play the game.

Obviously the pre-nerf phantom was OP AF, but the way it currently is is not broken what so ever. Aces aren't broken either and I have no doubt you play the game. I never played during what you call "the golden age meta" where you moved your ship and took 1 action that wasn't re positioning, but if I were to evaluate it by your description, the "golden age" sounds, to be frank, boring as all ******* hell compared to what is here now. I have never once seen you call this game X-Wing, only "turretwing" or "acewing," and it is meant to be negative. You can play(and win) with anything somewhat good if you can fly well, you dont need to use a turret or ace(just ask the guy who just won a 153 man store championship with a YV-666), which is really all that matters.

That is when you actually had to be good at flying in order to win, not just having higher pilot skill and boosting or out turreting your opponent. When you actually had to point your ships at what they wanted to shoot at.

I take issue with this.

I fly BroBots. I have no turrets, middling PS, only two firing arcs to work with, and no blockers to help me, and I've been killing higher-PS ships that have boost and/or turrets for more than a year now. What's your excuse?

With cannon gunner and the action economy they have access to with FCS and Autothrusters, it isn't too hard to do. Every other maneuver with them is a sloop or a K-turn so you have things in arc with them most of the time and you don't super care what range they're at because HLC gunner FCS shenanigans.

They're super Joustwing ships that have enough broken Acewing aspects about them to get by. You wouldn't be saying this about quint Kirahxz or some other /actual/ Joustwing ship list.

In other words, they're not a TIE Swarm. Is there anything in this game that you like apart from these?

That is when you actually had to be good at flying in order to win, not just having higher pilot skill and boosting or out turreting your opponent. When you actually had to point your ships at what they wanted to shoot at.

I take issue with this.

I fly BroBots. I have no turrets, middling PS, only two firing arcs to work with, and no blockers to help me, and I've been killing higher-PS ships that have boost and/or turrets for more than a year now. What's your excuse?

With cannon gunner and the action economy they have access to with FCS and Autothrusters, it isn't too hard to do. Every other maneuver with them is a sloop or a K-turn so you have things in arc with them most of the time and you don't super care what range they're at because HLC gunner FCS shenanigans.

They're super Joustwing ships that have enough broken Acewing aspects about them to get by. You wouldn't be saying this about quint Kirahxz or some other /actual/ Joustwing ship list.

In other words, they're not a TIE Swarm. Is there anything in this game that you like apart from these?

Games with generics tend to be determined heavily by flying ability and asteroid placement and making the one action you get count. You screw up and you can't just regen out of it. Acewing games often come down to who can boost last. There is no nuance to the game when it's determined almost solely by having VI on your prockets Vader so that your opponent's non-VI procket Vader will autodie.

That is when you actually had to be good at flying in order to win, not just having higher pilot skill and boosting or out turreting your opponent. When you actually had to point your ships at what they wanted to shoot at.

I take issue with this.

I fly BroBots. I have no turrets, middling PS, only two firing arcs to work with, and no blockers to help me, and I've been killing higher-PS ships that have boost and/or turrets for more than a year now. What's your excuse?

With cannon gunner and the action economy they have access to with FCS and Autothrusters, it isn't too hard to do. Every other maneuver with them is a sloop or a K-turn so you have things in arc with them most of the time and you don't super care what range they're at because HLC gunner FCS shenanigans.

They're super Joustwing ships that have enough broken Acewing aspects about them to get by. You wouldn't be saying this about quint Kirahxz or some other /actual/ Joustwing ship list.

In other words, they're not a TIE Swarm. Is there anything in this game that you like apart from these?

Other generic squadrons. Anything composed primarily of generics pretty much. 5x Autothruster Alpha, for example.

Games with generics tend to be determined heavily by flying ability and asteroid placement and making the one action you get count. You screw up and you can't just regen out of it. Acewing games often come down to who can boost last. There is no nuance to the game when it's determined almost solely by having VI on your prockets Vader so that your opponent's non-VI procket Vader will autodie.

Don't take this as me being mean I am genuinely asking; do you still enjoy this game?

There doesn't seem to be anything you enjoy about where the game is and going.

Pre-nerf Phantoms were an OP pile of disaster. That is why I campaigned so hard to get them changed, and why I started taking an 86 point list to tournaments (to drive my point home). That is the extent to which I agree with your claims.

Games with non-upgraded generics are primarily decided by ship efficiency, and secondarily by initial placement. With little ability to alter action economy, firing order, or pretty much anything else you are reduced to simply pointing your ships at the other guys while they point their ships at you. It's like taking every tool in the box out with the exception of a hammer, then claiming you have a much more nuanced method of bashing things than the guy with all the tools available.

Do your generics have a lower PS than his? Block him. Are yours higher? Come in on an oblique. Does he have 8 TIE fighters while you only have 4 T-65s? Well, there are dice to be rolled but I wouldn't give you much for your chances.

You keep talking about this "golden age" but it didn't exist. It was a solid third to half the field running some flavor of TIE swarm, because they were even more dominant than Fat Han was in his heyday. By most subjective measures and ANY objective measure your contention that the game requires less subtlety and finesse now than it did in the past is just plain wrong.

I regret calling you out so hard, but your attitude is terrible and not supported by any objective data. Giving "advice" to new players and attempting to win them over to your nihilism is not helping the game in general, or those players in particular.

Pre-nerf Phantoms were an OP pile of disaster. That is why I campaigned so hard to get them changed, and why I started taking an 86 point list to tournaments (to drive my point home). That is the extent to which I agree with your claims.

Games with non-upgraded generics are primarily decided by ship efficiency, and secondarily by initial placement. With little ability to alter action economy, firing order, or pretty much anything else you are reduced to simply pointing your ships at the other guys while they point their ships at you. It's like taking every tool in the box out with the exception of a hammer, then claiming you have a much more nuanced method of bashing things than the guy with all the tools available.

Do your generics have a lower PS than his? Block him. Are yours higher? Come in on an oblique. Does he have 8 TIE fighters while you only have 4 T-65s? Well, there are dice to be rolled but I wouldn't give you much for your chances.

You keep talking about this "golden age" but it didn't exist. It was a solid third to half the field running some flavor of TIE swarm, because they were even more dominant than Fat Han was in his heyday. By most subjective measures and ANY objective measure your contention that the game requires less subtlety and finesse now than it did in the past is just plain wrong.

I regret calling you out so hard, but your attitude is terrible and not supported by any objective data. Giving "advice" to new players and attempting to win them over to your nihilism is not helping the game in general, or those players in particular.

Aron Bonar, laying down the law...

Well put, sir.

_{I've never been as frustrated playing phantoms as I was playing K-wings. SLAM makes it very hard to get focus fire one down. In the hands of a good player, K-wings can take down any list.}

JoustWing

AceWing

TurretWing

PilotSkillWing

RegenWing

BoostWing

FatPancakeWing

There. I now have a dismissive term for everything I don't like in the game. And a few extra for the future in case my tastes change.

You forgot GenericWing, Missile/BombWing and SwarmWing Sir.

Oh and BeingCorrectedWing

StressWing is here. OrdnanceWing and TractorWing are lurking on the horizon. The filthy lurkers.

Fel isn't nearly as hard to take down, despite the autothrusters, and doesn't have the same damage output. The ability to take a crew and systems slot makes all the difference for Whisper.

This is just flat out not true. Fel with SD and AT is much more difficult to take down than a phantom.

Games with generics tend to be determined heavily by flying ability and asteroid placement and making the one action you get count.

No it didn't, it never did. It was determined by having a crapload of dice in your tie swarm that could be rolled for free by Howlrunner.

Fat Han never dominated the game the same way the Tie Swarm did. You either didn't actually play the game then or are simply a swarm fanboy who wants to back to the days when 7 ties ruled the game.

Stress Weapons, because you don't need to hit, I find myself equipping one of my ships with some type of stress dealing options, Tactician, Flechette (Torps, Cannon, etc) Just to deal with the phantom when I'm not flying aces or someone with a higher PS.

StressWing is here. OrdnanceWing and TractorWing are lurking on the horizon. The filthy lurkers.

Surely TractorWing is just the YV666.

StressWing is here. OrdnanceWing and TractorWing are lurking on the horizon. The filthy lurkers.

Surely TractorWing is just the YV666.

You better not be dissing the magic space bus!