Just curious. If the Emperor were fully alive at at full power do you think he could take on a Chaos God and possibly win? My theory is yes. If it were one on one. He's been described as being as powerful as them before. They'd cooperate long enough to gang up an kill him though which is why he was planning on using the Webway. This is just speculation so feel free to suggest whatever idea you want no matter how implausible.

I believe you are falling under the assumption that the Emperor was stronger in terms of psychic potential when he still walked as a living being among humanity. This is however not the case, as it was upon ascending to the Golden Throne that he gained the power needed to even stand on semi-equal footing with the Gods.

As a "man" the Emperor is the physical vessel for humanities first psykers, the ancient shamans, and represents their combined power. This raw energy is what granted him effective immortality and the ability to perform miracles such as the creation of the Primarchs. At that time though he was still bound by the limitations of his form, he was a creature of realspace and could only ever draw the energies of the Warp forth not manipulate them in their native environment.

The Chaos Gods work on a wholly different level. They do not manipulate the Warp as psykers do, they simply use their own power to cause a desired effect immediately. In turn, they can never directly influence realspace as the cannot manifest themselves outside the Warp, hence the need for Daemons.

As for their relative power, had the Emperor attempted to go toe to toe with a God at that time he would have been devoured, and this is due to the difference in the source of their power. You can never wield the ambient energies of the Warp against a God, its like trying to defeat an ocean with water.

What ended up leveling the playing field was the Emperor tapping into the combined faith of manking and ascending to the level of a god himself. Power in the Warp comes from human thoughts and emotions and thus the Emperor can draw upon the collective psyche of his flock to keep the Gods somewhat at bay, though to be fair they are more than a bit preoccupied by their Great Game.

I'm not saying you're wrong but if that's the case then why is the light of the astronomicon slowly getting dimmer and not reaching as far requiring the sacrifice of more and more Psykers to help fuel it? If he's more powerful now than when he still walked as flesh shouldn't the opposite be true?

If he's more powerful now than when he still walked as flesh shouldn't the opposite be true?

He is not more powerful now. The Emperor is in decline and slowly ending what remained of his life.

The golden throne just gave him access to more power and capabilities. Without it, the Astronomicon wouldn't have ever been this strong and durable, but everything has an end.

The golden throne was mainly a reason to boost psychic potentiel for the emperor to access much more than he was able to.

From my understanding, the Astronomican is not a representation of the Emperor's power, its literally a lighthouse fueled by the massive sacrificial pyre of thousands of psyker souls being consumed on Terra. The Emperor's psychic might allows him to focus and direct these energies, but he does not use them himself. His power comes from the faith of mankind in him, just as the Chaos Gods are empowered by the thoughts and emotions of the sentient beings of the galaxy. What the Emperor became upon ascending to the Golden Throne is in effect another Chaos God, albeit one tied to a physical body, with his worship now serving as the source of his power. He can use the energy of humanity's belief in his divine authority to augment his abilities and stand against Chaos.

The reason the Astronomican is growing dimmer is twofold, one the Warp itself is becoming increasingly more and more turbulent as THE END TIMES approach (an ongoing theme in the grim darkness of the far future) and the machinations of the Golden Throne begin finally wearing down, thus making it more and more difficult for the Emperor to sustain his form and direct the energies of the Astronomican itself.

Okay that's just wrong. Before interment in the Golden Throne he could emit the Astronomicon from anywhere in the Imperium AND is was stronger then. It wasn't until his injury at Horus's hand that he had to stay in the Throne to maintain it. And it wasn't for many years that it began to dim requiring other Psykers.

Still wrong valarion. The emperor could direct the astronomican before the end of the Horus heresy, not emit it. And the astronomican has little to do with maintenaining his unlife. After Magnus broke the web way portal, the golden throne required a powerful psyker to maintain the war breach from expanding and consuming terra. He had to be placed in the golden throne to stop that from happening, as we'll as maintenaining his life so terra wouldn't be destroyed or another eye of terra formed. The link to the astronomican permits him to still guide it in a fashion.

Oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out Cogniczar. Totally forgot about the human webway project, derp. Now as for the Emperor directing the Astronomican before the Heresy, is it that he could direct it himself? I thought he delegated that to Malcador the Sigilite.

I tend to think of the Golden throne as the last (and slowly fading) "link" to the spirit of the Emperor in the Material world. No one knows what would happen to him if the Throne failed other than his physical form would finally "die". This does not necessarily mean that the Emperor's spirit would become less powerful though! It might in fact mean the opposite! It also might mean that the Emperor might Reincarnate as was originally intended by the Shamans of old! (The "Starchild" theory). It is also possible he would simply regenerate to a whole as there are theories that he was in fact a "Perpetual" in the same manner as Vulcan (The Primarch).

The only thing we DO know is that when the throne fails, the Astronomicon will go out and that will make Interstellar travel much more "Complicated".

I've heard several theories myself. One of which is that when the Throne fails that he'll reincarnate infinitely more powerful than before as he'll have absorbed all the souls of those sacrificed to maintain the Astronomicon. Increasing his gestalt consciousness and power much the same way as he was created in the first place. This makes the most sense to me. He is almost certainly a Perpetual, so we know he'll come back at the very least.

I'm much more of the opinion that when the Golden Throne fails, the Emperor will truly die, and his soul will be torn asunder by the Warp, having lost its "anchor", so-to-speak.

Seems a lot more in-line with the general tone of 40k, which largely comes across as: "Humanity is utterly screwed, and the end of mankind is not a matter of "if" but "when" and "how".

This raw energy is what granted him effective immortality and the ability to perform miracles such as the creation of the Primarchs.

By the way, I'm wondering - why Primarchs creation counts as a great psychical feat? I saw it more than once.

It was great scientific achievement, yes, but why psy?

He is almost certainly a Perpetual, so we know he'll come back at the very least.

Not necessarily. It's increasingly hinted in the Horus Heresy that there are ways to kill a perpetual dead and gone - it's just not easy. Damon Prytanis, for example, had been sent to properly-actually-for-good-and-ever assassinate Vulkan, and as a perpetual himself would have a pretty good idea whether 'the plan' was workable or not.

By the way, I'm wondering - why Primarchs creation counts as a great psychical feat? I saw it more than once.

It was great scientific achievement, yes, but why psy?

Because the Primarchs aren't just a genetic engineering project. There was a.....it's implied in the novels to be sorcery of the 'bargains with daemons' kind..ritual which was part of creating them too. Part of the reason the Chaos Gods were so narked off with the emperor was they saw him as having tried to cheat them on the (never specified to the reader) terms of the deal.

That's why they have the abilities they do, far beyond simply 'I heal fast because genetics'. A lot of the feats accredited to them are simply beyond the potential of flesh and blood, however smart your scientists. Note also the psychic energy discharge associated with Ferrus Manus' death.

That's also why they were a 'one off'. As noted in the books, why wasn't there an army of Horuses and Angrons? Councils of Gullimans to guide compliant sectors? The answer is that there was never an attempt to make more primarchs because it was impossible - even if you had the primarch's genome, attempting to grow another one wouldn't work because the mystical element wouldn't be there.

That's also why they were a 'one off'. As noted in the books, why wasn't there an army of Horuses and Angrons? Councils of Gullimans to guide compliant sectors? The answer is that there was never an attempt to make more primarchs because it was impossible - even if you had the primarch's genome, attempting to grow another one wouldn't work because the mystical element wouldn't be there.

But if it's novel version it's ok, it's what I was asking. Don't like it though; but I don't like 30K time novels at all, with all perpetuals and anything, so nothing new.

Just curious. If the Emperor were fully alive at at full power do you think he could take on a Chaos God and possibly win? My theory is yes. If it were one on one. He's been described as being as powerful as them before. They'd cooperate long enough to gang up an kill him though which is why he was planning on using the Webway. This is just speculation so feel free to suggest whatever idea you want no matter how implausible.

No he wouldn't. The Chaos gods are too powerful to simply 'take on'. IIRC the Emperor knew that the Chaos gods fed on negative human emotions and sought to create a galactic empire built on reason rather than superstition as he believed that it would significantly weaken the influence that Chaos would have over the material realm. There was also some theory regarding the 'Starchild' (a sort of collected human concious) that the Emperor believed could have the power to destroy the Chaos Gods. Basically it would link with every human mind, purge all negative emotions in so doing cutting Chaos off from the source of its power, then punch the Chaos Gods in the face with the collected psychic might of every human mind in existance.

One of the reasons why the Emperor remains on the Golden Throne is to protect the Starchild from the Chaos Gods who were quite happy to interfer with the Emperor's initial plan (the Primarchs) and then again when he came up with the back up plan (Space Marines). The Horus Heresy basically boiled down to the Chaos Gods deciding that they needed to deal with the Emperor before he found a way to limit their strength and power.