With the upcoming buff to torpedos and missiles, we are about to see burst damage enter the meta as a serious threat. But how much is too much?

Consider the classic Concussion-Z swarm, led by Blount with Tracers. Even Soontier wont last long against firepower of that magnatude... but then what? With 5 or so naked Zs, you have to face down the rest of his list.

On the other hand, burst is one of the best ways to deal with some of the classic threats of this meta- Regenrating rebel aces, unhinged TLT scum, token stacking imperials. By taking out a big threat early, the rest of his list has to deal with the rest of your list, and you can gain an early advantage.

What are your thoughts?

It's been fun to see how things have evolved since X Wing launched. Turrets, aces, regen, and now Ordnance. I think Ordnance is one of the riskier strategies available, not only because of limited ammunition but getting your target in arc.

In your example, that could be a tough spot for an ace. Although it is reasonable to think that an ace could avoid a rocket swarm and dispatch them before they could fire. Frankly, I'm excited about this change. Maybe because I play mainly Imperial, and hopefully it will put a dent into the "AllTurret Cluster" we find ourselves currently mired in.

I think were about to see Ordnance carriers become a much more viable counter to TLT spam.

For example, consider 3 Gamma Vets TIE Bombers, all with Predator, Guidance Chips and Cluster Missiles and Torps. facing Gold Squad 4 TLT Y-Wings. The Vets will fire first, with their torps at R3. Between Chips and Predator, it's perfectly feasible that each bomber could strip a Y-Wing of its shields and potential land some actual damage. Alternatively, they could focus fire and bring one down.

Even if no Ys drop initially, at best they can deal out 8 damage - so enough to drop one bomber - but only if the Ys roll hot and Bomber rolls cold.

You're then closing to R1-R2 where the Cluster Missiles will eat the bombers alive. Again, Predator and Chips will maximise your chances of landing plenty of hits.

Two turns in, and it's not hard to expect one or two Ys to be off the board and the TIEs having the upper hand.

Sure, its a very situational match up, but there are a few TLT heavy lists at my local store which I'm looking forward to trying something like that above as a counter.

I agree with the good doctor. Ordnance is going to be a viable option against many builds. Assault Missiles vs swarms is one that comes to mind. It's going to force the swarm player to alter some of their tactics.

The changes in the last two waves are making ordnance more accurate, more deadly and more of them. It will be interesting to see if these changes have any effect on tourney builds.

Ordnance is superior weaponry now with the additions of chimps/LRS. Been running both since they were spoiled and they are incredible. Limited supply and cost are the main issues remaining. The goal is to ride the momentum of your early advantage so its really down to fitting the cost. Well that and telegraphing your attack to an extent but it also promotes focused fire.

It also depends on the carrier. 2 attack ships need spammed or a solid ace or both. 3 attack ships don't care as much if they run dry. I use ordnance heavily with the new buffs and sparingly without.

Ugh getting a cohesive thought out from my phone is a pain.

With the upcoming buff to torpedos and missiles, we are about to see burst damage enter the meta as a serious threat. But how much is too much?

Consider the classic Concussion-Z swarm, led by Blount with Tracers. Even Soontier wont last long against firepower of that magnatude... but then what? With 5 or so naked Zs, you have to face down the rest of his list.

On the other hand, burst is one of the best ways to deal with some of the classic threats of this meta- Regenrating rebel aces, unhinged TLT scum, token stacking imperials. By taking out a big threat early, the rest of his list has to deal with the rest of your list, and you can gain an early advantage.

What are your thoughts?

Good, can't wait to blow that ****** out of the sky with 4 Homing Missiles.

Hopefully it should swing the game's meta back to generics and "getting the most bang for your buck" squad building, except now instead of 5 naked Z's you'll get 4 each with Ion Pulse Missiles and Guidance Chips.

General flying ability will be more important than just having higher pilot skill and boosting.

Burst was the supposed allure of the wave one torpedoes, but the amount of fire power wasn't worth the points because of the spend a target lock requirement. It will be very good for the game to have viable burst damage options which require some strategy to deploy effectively but reward the user with higher potential damage output.

Shouldn't skilled manuvering overcome 360 shooting lists? I think ordinance can be the counter many have been looking for. Perhaps TLT will be spammed less and lists will tend to be more "combined arms" and a bit less spammy.

Consider the classic Concussion-Z swarm, led by Blount with Tracers.

A classic that hinges on a card that hasn't been released yet?

I don't think that means what you think it means.

Burst? Not a problem.

Auto applying effects is, though. And my issue with them is most auto effect abilities belong to the care bear.. er... Rebels. Why is anyone still afraid of Aces when you can field this squadron with the stuff that's available at any game store?

GET F***ED ACES

100 points

Lieutenant Blount (21)
Z-95 Headhunter (17), Ion Pulse Missiles (3), Deadeye (1)

Gray Squadron Pilot (28)
Y-Wing (20), BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0), R3-A2 (2), Twin Laser Turret (6)

Wes Janson (36)
X-Wing (29), BB-8 (2), Veteran Instincts (1), Engine Upgrade (4)

Prototype Pilot (15)
A-Wing (17), Chardaan Refit (-2)

This is the equivalent to the keyboard faceroll in the game against aces for reasons that are saliently obvious. Heck, it might even be good against a couple of big ship builds, and it would certainly do well against any 2 ship build with the amount of lockdown it provides. What makes this list so osbcene is that there's nothing the opponent can do about the effects coming in ... the Ion effect, the double tap stress, the loss of token/target lock. It dictates to the opponent, which is classic Rebel "I win" shenanigans. This is much bigger problem than burst.

Remember, in order to get any burst you have to have things in place, like TLs and Focus. It would be too bad if Wes came along and snatched it away from your vaunted alpha strike, now wouldn't it?

With the upcoming buff to torpedos and missiles, we are about to see burst damage enter the meta as a serious threat. But how much is too much?

Consider the classic Concussion-Z swarm, led by Blount with Tracers. Even Soontier wont last long against firepower of that magnatude... but then what? With 5 or so naked Zs, you have to face down the rest of his list.

On the other hand, burst is one of the best ways to deal with some of the classic threats of this meta- Regenrating rebel aces, unhinged TLT scum, token stacking imperials. By taking out a big threat early, the rest of his list has to deal with the rest of your list, and you can gain an early advantage.

What are your thoughts?

Good, can't wait to blow that ****** out of the sky with 4 Homing Missiles.

Hopefully it should swing the game's meta back to generics and "getting the most bang for your buck" squad building, except now instead of 5 naked Z's you'll get 4 each with Ion Pulse Missiles and Guidance Chips.

General flying ability will be more important than just having higher pilot skill and boosting.

I need a SUPERLIKE button for this one.

With the upcoming buff to torpedos and missiles, we are about to see burst damage enter the meta as a serious threat. But how much is too much?

Consider the classic Concussion-Z swarm, led by Blount with Tracers. Even Soontier wont last long against firepower of that magnatude... but then what? With 5 or so naked Zs, you have to face down the rest of his list.

On the other hand, burst is one of the best ways to deal with some of the classic threats of this meta- Regenrating rebel aces, unhinged TLT scum, token stacking imperials. By taking out a big threat early, the rest of his list has to deal with the rest of your list, and you can gain an early advantage.

What are your thoughts?

Good, can't wait to blow that ****** out of the sky with 4 Homing Missiles.

Hopefully it should swing the game's meta back to generics and "getting the most bang for your buck" squad building, except now instead of 5 naked Z's you'll get 4 each with Ion Pulse Missiles and Guidance Chips.

General flying ability will be more important than just having higher pilot skill and boosting.

I need a SUPERLIKE button for this one.

I agree with your comments on Boostwing. I myself fly a PS 10 Boba and PS 11 Vader squad at 97 points, so I always see where my opponent moves before I just boost away. As I do this I say, "and a boost because this game is no longer about predicting your opponent and just having higher pilot skill and boosting."

Another thing that's abusive at PS 10 with a strong initiative bid are proton bombs. You get the final word on who gets hit.

You should try it out Warpman, it's fun to play god mode every once and a while and it one-ups all the other high PS players.

Consider the classic Concussion-Z swarm, led by Blount with Tracers.

A classic that hinges on a card that hasn't been released yet?

I don't think that means what you think it means.

"Consider the classic concussion-Z swarm...but now led by Blount with Tracers."

With the upcoming buff to torpedos and missiles, we are about to see burst damage enter the meta as a serious threat. But how much is too much?

Consider the classic Concussion-Z swarm, led by Blount with Tracers. Even Soontier wont last long against firepower of that magnatude... but then what? With 5 or so naked Zs, you have to face down the rest of his list.

On the other hand, burst is one of the best ways to deal with some of the classic threats of this meta- Regenrating rebel aces, unhinged TLT scum, token stacking imperials. By taking out a big threat early, the rest of his list has to deal with the rest of your list, and you can gain an early advantage.

What are your thoughts?

Good, can't wait to blow that ****** out of the sky with 4 Homing Missiles.

Hopefully it should swing the game's meta back to generics and "getting the most bang for your buck" squad building, except now instead of 5 naked Z's you'll get 4 each with Ion Pulse Missiles and Guidance Chips.

General flying ability will be more important than just having higher pilot skill and boosting.

I need a SUPERLIKE button for this one.

I agree with your comments on Boostwing. I myself fly a PS 10 Boba and PS 11 Vader squad at 97 points, so I always see where my opponent moves before I just boost away. As I do this I say, "and a boost because this game is no longer about predicting your opponent and just having higher pilot skill and boosting."

Another thing that's abusive at PS 10 with a strong initiative bid are proton bombs. You get the final word on who gets hit.

You should try it out Warpman, it's fun to play god mode every once and a while and it one-ups all the other high PS players.

So... your response to the meta you despise is to embrace one of its most abusive variants? Doesn't that actually make you part of the problem?

If you actually believe the game is about predicting your opponent and out-flying them, then why not build lists with that in mind and show your opponents the game can be played another way? Demonstrate other builds are viable and you might bring some people with you.

There's a recurring theme on this board. "I would enjoy this game if only my opponent would play the lists I want him/her to play."

The obvious solution is to discuss this with said opponent.

This cannot be done in the tournaments...but then again those tournaments are not there to present you with enjoyable matches, but to play the game to its limits. You either enjoy that or you don't. And it's okay if you don't like it, really.

With the upcoming buff to torpedos and missiles, we are about to see burst damage enter the meta as a serious threat. But how much is too much?

Consider the classic Concussion-Z swarm, led by Blount with Tracers. Even Soontier wont last long against firepower of that magnatude... but then what? With 5 or so naked Zs, you have to face down the rest of his list.

On the other hand, burst is one of the best ways to deal with some of the classic threats of this meta- Regenrating rebel aces, unhinged TLT scum, token stacking imperials. By taking out a big threat early, the rest of his list has to deal with the rest of your list, and you can gain an early advantage.

What are your thoughts?

Good, can't wait to blow that ****** out of the sky with 4 Homing Missiles.

Hopefully it should swing the game's meta back to generics and "getting the most bang for your buck" squad building, except now instead of 5 naked Z's you'll get 4 each with Ion Pulse Missiles and Guidance Chips.

General flying ability will be more important than just having higher pilot skill and boosting.

I need a SUPERLIKE button for this one.

I agree with your comments on Boostwing. I myself fly a PS 10 Boba and PS 11 Vader squad at 97 points, so I always see where my opponent moves before I just boost away. As I do this I say, "and a boost because this game is no longer about predicting your opponent and just having higher pilot skill and boosting."

Another thing that's abusive at PS 10 with a strong initiative bid are proton bombs. You get the final word on who gets hit.

You should try it out Warpman, it's fun to play god mode every once and a while and it one-ups all the other high PS players.

So... your response to the meta you despise is to embrace one of its most abusive variants? Doesn't that actually make you part of the problem?

If you actually believe the game is about predicting your opponent and out-flying them, then why not build lists with that in mind and show your opponents the game can be played another way? Demonstrate other builds are viable and you might bring some people with you.

I don't believe it's about predicting your opponent and out flying them anymore, it stopped being about that once wave 4 came out.

Right now it's all about having higher pilot skill and boosting, and a way to prove that is to fly super high PS with an initiative bid no one would dare limbo beneath.

It's vengeance. Beating my opponents at their own game. Players who fly VI regen Poe at 98 points? Haha nope.

Dual scum Firespray guy with PS 9 and 10 at 98-99 points? You can have initiative. Oh look you can't touch my Boba and Vader is adjacent to Kath and just dumped a 5/5 hit proton missile into her.

I'm not part of the problem. The 6 out of 12-14 players running identical VI regen Autothrusters Poes at one $5 Sunday tournament are the problem. This is specifically what sparked me to craft my meta hatred squad. You're going to try and boost harder than me?! Sit down child, let me show you how it's done.

Justify it to yourself any way you want mate.

But when you're doing the exact same as the people you despise, you're no better than them and are indeed part of the problem.

Justify it to yourself any way you want mate.

But when you're doing the exact same as the people you despise, you're no better than them and are indeed part of the problem.

I used to fly quad T-65's with quad R7's and 6x Crackshot but I'm done having every end game be 2.5 TIE Fighters/FO's against regen Poe or 2 R7 T-65's against Soontir. I'm done out flying my opponents in the end game and trying my very best just for my opponent to outregen my damage. I'm tired of these near autoloss end game situations, I'm just done.

If you're done, then stop playing.

But trying to beat them at their own game only encourages escalation. You drop to 97, they drop to 96. So you drop to 95. And in the end, it just becomes a race to see who can create the cheapest list of the same ilk.

I will also add that based on the posts of most others on this forum, your local meta does appear to be somewhat skewed. I wonder if that's because everyone is trying to outdo one another in the same way....? Just a thought.

If you're going to do it, go all out, I feel.

Still annoyed that x-wing can either blame patch themselves or their ammo (hint: not their ammo) though

With the upcoming buff to torpedos and missiles, we are about to see burst damage enter the meta as a serious threat. But how much is too much?

Consider the classic Concussion-Z swarm, led by Blount with Tracers. Even Soontier wont last long against firepower of that magnatude... but then what? With 5 or so naked Zs, you have to face down the rest of his list.

On the other hand, burst is one of the best ways to deal with some of the classic threats of this meta- Regenrating rebel aces, unhinged TLT scum, token stacking imperials. By taking out a big threat early, the rest of his list has to deal with the rest of your list, and you can gain an early advantage.

What are your thoughts?

Good, can't wait to blow that ****** out of the sky with 4 Homing Missiles.

Hopefully it should swing the game's meta back to generics and "getting the most bang for your buck" squad building, except now instead of 5 naked Z's you'll get 4 each with Ion Pulse Missiles and Guidance Chips.

General flying ability will be more important than just having higher pilot skill and boosting.

I need a SUPERLIKE button for this one.

I agree with your comments on Boostwing. I myself fly a PS 10 Boba and PS 11 Vader squad at 97 points, so I always see where my opponent moves before I just boost away. As I do this I say, "and a boost because this game is no longer about predicting your opponent and just having higher pilot skill and boosting."

Another thing that's abusive at PS 10 with a strong initiative bid are proton bombs. You get the final word on who gets hit.

You should try it out Warpman, it's fun to play god mode every once and a while and it one-ups all the other high PS players.

VI+K4+Autoblaster+EU+Inertial dampener Fett is the thing our locals hate already.

And yeah, Genius VI Autoblaster EU Kavil (ALthough he is half the list)

the greatest thing is that most tries to get out of the explosion radius by PS10-11 most often results in getting 3 autoblaster shots.

Godmode is simply sad, that's why I love brobots, the last joustwing resort.

Funny thing: 120 point games suddenly make more difference than most Upgrade card parade does.

Some extra bodies, extra dice and suddenly it's hard to dodge all, and a token stack isn't as great as usually! The more chances per turn your dice can betray you, the less impact focus+evade+palpatine works like that

and yes, last thing, we're about to see PS3-4 large ship with barrelroll, AND ept.

I'm already laughing at perspective of blocking the boostlovers

In discussions like this I'm always reminded of the opening lines of Johnny Mnemonic:

I put the shotgun in an Adidas bag and padded it out with four pairs of tennis socks, not my style at all, but that was what I was aiming for: If they think you're crude, go technical; if they think you're technical, go crude. I'm a very technical boy. So I decided to get as crude as possible.

If your local meta is all high end rapier flaunting high falutin' aces, kill them dead with with bricks taped to sticks. TLT's for instance.

Toss a couple of B-Wings with Ion Cannons and AC's their way and make them fear Range 3.

Throw Hera Syndula on Keyan and giggle as you eat your stress each turn while flying all over the place.

Justify it to yourself any way you want mate.

But when you're doing the exact same as the people you despise, you're no better than them and are indeed part of the problem.

Exactly right. You can't have it both ways.

In discussions like this I'm always reminded of the opening lines of Johnny Mnemonic:

I put the shotgun in an Adidas bag and padded it out with four pairs of tennis socks, not my style at all, but that was what I was aiming for: If they think you're crude, go technical; if they think you're technical, go crude. I'm a very technical boy. So I decided to get as crude as possible.

If your local meta is all high end rapier flaunting high falutin' aces, kill them dead with with bricks taped to sticks. TLT's for instance.

Toss a couple of B-Wings with Ion Cannons and AC's their way and make them fear Range 3.

Throw Hera Syndula on Keyan and giggle as you eat your stress each turn while flying all over the place.

It appears that's exactly what Goomba did. The 'problem' - insofar there is one - seems to be that he is angry about it. Like he is lifting his skinny fists to heaven and shouting "Look! Look what you made me do! Now I am playing a double aces list!"

I may not like it if someone plays a list solely motivated by revenge, but in the end it is not my business why someone chooses to play a certain way (unless, I can imagine, it becomes personal). It seems to be a simple matter of finding something that is better than the rest. Sometimes we enjoy that, and occasionally we don't.

In discussions like this I'm always reminded of the opening lines of Johnny Mnemonic:

I put the shotgun in an Adidas bag and padded it out with four pairs of tennis socks, not my style at all, but that was what I was aiming for: If they think you're crude, go technical; if they think you're technical, go crude. I'm a very technical boy. So I decided to get as crude as possible.

If your local meta is all high end rapier flaunting high falutin' aces, kill them dead with with bricks taped to sticks. TLT's for instance.

Toss a couple of B-Wings with Ion Cannons and AC's their way and make them fear Range 3.

Throw Hera Syndula on Keyan and giggle as you eat your stress each turn while flying all over the place.

As soon as TLT will start doing something to AT Poe and Fel.

funny thing is that it scared PWTs away.

and so far we got no brick taped to sticks. the best answer to aces are other aces.

KKK is good, but it's a drop in the ocean, and still relies on PS8 regening ace for late game itself.

No such thing as too much burst, assuming you accept the fact that you're paying in early which will mitigate your late game potential.

We sometimes edge 25 points off to N'dru Suhlak w/ Lone Wolf, Cluster Missiles & Glitterstim. Whatever catches that is in serious trouble but I'm game for anything that can potentially one shot a Y-wing (N.B. as long as I'm not fielding said Y-wing).

With Guidance Chips coming it's becoming more viable to blend in a high damage alpha into your present list... or skew for a Bomber Missilestorm.