Vader also helps at closer ranges but he is best on ISD 2's and VSD 2's

He does, but as good cases have been made for upgrades providing similar effects, so I was really exposing his niche.

Which isn't a bad niche at all. It explains why I've been so effective with the ISD 2 at killing small ships at long range, through the power of the math side. Now that the analytics are even clear, I can't help but loving the man even more, mitigating the Imperials' weak spots rather than capitalizing on their strengths.

And I mean, increasing the firepower of red dice at long range by almost 40% just made him well worth the points for me.

You are not just increasing Red Dice by 40% though. You are increasing all dice instead of paying for those upgrades.

Think on it. Lets say you have Motti and 3 VSD 2's with Leading Shots. That is 36 points. That is vader there AND you have to lose a die per attack AND be in medium range, both of which can hurt VSD's in the end.

You don't need to convince me about that, the Darth is my commander of choice for Wave 2 currently

In your analysis, you're discounting the fact that at the expense of one dice, Motti increases the hull value by 2 for each ship.

I'm not saying it's better than Vader, I was just merely saying that Vader's own niche that isn't currently filled or replicated by any other upgrades is the ability to reroll dice at long range, and it is nothing to sneeze at either even though it may sound unimpressive at first glance. Especially when paired with squadrons. And HTT

You don't need to convince me about that, the Darth is my commander of choice for Wave 2 currently

In your analysis, you're discounting the fact that at the expense of one dice, Motti increases the hull value by 2 for each ship.

I'm not saying it's better than Vader, I was just merely saying that Vader's own niche that isn't currently filled or replicated by any other upgrades is the ability to reroll dice at long range, and it is nothing to sneeze at either even though it may sound unimpressive at first glance. Especially when paired with squadrons. And HTT

Tis true.

There are stand-out commanders: Screed, Ackbar, Mon Mothma.

The rest are all more situational, but still all are playable. Tarkin and Vader are overlooked a lot because they're so expensive (compared to screed). Tarkin really isn't much different from Garm, but we see a lot more Garm. Motti is solid as well. Reikkan is good, but I think any list that makes good use of him lacks firepower. Even with getting a death reposte, I think just adding up front firepower (eg: Ackbar) is better.

Ozzel and Dodanna have their uses, but are very subtle and I think not all that good in general. If you really build around them they can be fine, and playable, but definitely the weakest. Dodanna relys on randomness too much, to be consistently effective. An Ozzel is way overpriced for his ability. He wouldn't see play as a crew with an aura for 10 points. People make use of him, sure, but I think in nearly every case screed or motti would be better.

Let's not be heated in our debates about Vader. I know that such a dark side presence inspires fear, anger, hatred, but let's remember the Jedi Code on the forums

It is true that Darth Vader may be redundant with other upgrade cards, but let's look at him in a different light. Let's assume (and a good case could be made for that) that the reroll upgrades (Leading Shots and Ordnance Experts to name a few) are more points efficient than taking the man Darth Vader himself. It might be a strong assumption, but let's look at it as an hypothesis for our analytics framework, so that we can find the niche for Darth Vader himself where he has no competition.

So, black dice can be rerolled with an upgrade, at medium range you get access to an upgrade that allows to reroll all dice. The only place where Darth Vader makes a difference is at long range.

"Great, MoffZen, you've won the Sherlock Holmes award from Captain Obvious inc, but I don't care about long range, because the Empire's most effective range is at medium and short range !" and this where I reply : "Right ! And also wrong !". Even if it is true that the optimal range of Imperial ships is close to medium range depending on the class, not caring about long range is a tactical error that I've seen many Imperials make in my local meta !

While it's true that the Imperial Ships' optimal range is close medium, the Empire is stronger at long range than its ship cards hints at, and this is especially true the larger the ships get (which is Vader's comfort zone anecdotically). Imperial Ships have one factor that is often overlooked, it's the fact that except the Raider (and even then, a very iconic upgrade card can be used to remedy that), every Imperial ship is either a carrier or an off carrier because the squadron values of Imperials are always above or at 2 squadrons.

But, how does that relate to Vader ? His ability doesn't affect squadrons, or does it ? Looking at all standard issue Imperial squadrons, they all have a speed of 4 or 5, meaning that if they are placed next to the Imperial ship's front arc, they can be activated, move and hit at long range in respect to the ships (actually a tad beyond because range 1 is longer than range 5, but let's not dwell on details just yet). Because the larger the ship gets in the Imperial Navy, the better a carrier it becomes (through activating tons of fighters), larger ships in the Imperial Navy are the best long range fighters the Imperials currently have.

But, again, why would any Imperial Commander care about staying at long range when the obvious killzone is close to medium range ? Well, due to how the game is made and assuming the opponent is a smart player, there is one type of ship that will be able to stay within the red range of an Star Destroyer or any size : other small ships like the CR90, the Nebulon B and the MC30. Coming from a Rebel play in Wave 1, it is a rare occurence when I had my arc dodging ships in the killzone of a Star Destroyer, and my larger ships had trouble arc dodging due to their wider footprint, but they had the defense tokens to tank a few shots. I ever only have had CR90s in the medium range of a Victory 2 or an Imperial 2 twice and learned to fear that zone like plague.

However, due to the Evades, at long range my Rebel ships were comfortable tanking 3 to 4 red dice without much trouble.

Once again, how does that relate to Vader ? It's relatively easy for an Imperial player to go into brawling range of larger ships, but to damage nimble ships at red range Imperial ships must rely on squadrons and red dice. And this is where Vader comes in : in lists where an ISD is carrying 4 squadrons, or VSDs are carrying 3, he respectively allows to throw 8 dices at long range, 4 of which are rerollable, or 6 dice at long range, 3 of which are rerollable.

Let's look at the average damage for an ISD2 at long range after activating 4 TIE Fighters, without then with Vader. Each red dice has a 0,625 probability to do damage, and the average damage of each hit is 1.2, so it gives us :

1) Without Vader : 2 average damage from 4 TIE Fighters, 3 damage from the red dice (4 x 0.625 x 1.2) for a total of 5.

2) With Vader : 2 average damage from 4 TIE Fighters, 4.125 damage from the red dice for a total of 6.125 (4 x (0.625 + 0.375 x 0.625) * 1.2).

Through Darth Vader, the average long range damage from an ISD2 has increased by 22.5% when including squadrons and by 37.5% over standard red dice.

In game terms, what that means is that within 2 activations, a CR90 will be destroyed (strip 4 shields with the redirect in a single activation,finish it off in the second activation). It might not seem much, but we're talking about the least effective of Imperial ships' ranges, and with no Bombers activated.

If we take a VSD as an example (long range, activating 3 TIE Fighters) :

1) Without Vader : 1.5 average damage from the squadrons, 2.25 damage from the red dice for a total of 3.75

2) With Vader : 1.5 average damage from the squadrons, 3.09 damage (+37.5%) from the red dice for a total of 4.59 damage (+22.5%)

Similar results for the GSD due to the rerolls offering a flat bonus.

What this means is that Vader is the only Imperial Commander capable of improving the firepower of the Imperial Navy at long range, and as such makes him a serious contender for the best Alpha Strike Commander in the Empire.

For some reason however, I rarely see Imperial Commanders in my meta maximizing their potential Squadron activations with their bigger ships. It's a shame, I find this lack of squadrons disturbing when it's obviously meant to be a great tool for the Imperial ships.

Edit: I do want to say that the main reason I am complaining about him is that I am trying to find a way for him to work competitively and i still run him every 3-4 practice games or so

You don't need to convince me about that, the Darth is my commander of choice for Wave 2 currently

In your analysis, you're discounting the fact that at the expense of one dice, Motti increases the hull value by 2 for each ship.

I'm not saying it's better than Vader, I was just merely saying that Vader's own niche that isn't currently filled or replicated by any other upgrades is the ability to reroll dice at long range, and it is nothing to sneeze at either even though it may sound unimpressive at first glance. Especially when paired with squadrons. And HTT

Tis true.

Imo, Motti is most overrated. I've killed more Motti ISDs than not-Motti ISDs.

Vader.. is effective. And actually yes, rather good at long range. But costly.

Tarkin i think is the most underrated. I love Tarkin. It makes everything move smoothly like a well oiled war machine. Nothing super impressive, but everything has back up plans. its pretty awesome.

You could always try my Vader Duet list Clontroper5.

You could always try my Vader Duet list Clontroper5.

Ozzel is useless to me....my style is full speed most of the time.

Vader is way too costly...I always rather have more points for more ships.

Screed was my go to commander, but ordnance experts. Hmm.

Love Tarkin...but see Vader above.

Current go to is Motti. His ability has said a few ships several times now.

The only commander I ever see on the rebel side is Ackbar. Haven't seen anyone else since wave two launched.

I would vote for Reikan and Motti. Reikan for the reasons already listed. I'll agree with Blail that Motti is the weakest of the Imperial Commanders. When a ship gets popped it doesn't always die right on the number. Often it's a -1 or -2 and in those cases Motti makes no difference.

I like Ozzel. Maneuverability and its threat are, for me, the greatest asset in the game. Great positioning beats special effects, firepower and even a superior ship. But when I fly Imps I don't take Ozzel because think he's the best commander and I'm enamored with him. I take him because I MUST take a commander and he is the cheapest, and can be useful.

I think people using Motti expect their ISDs and VSDs to be invincible. ... and then they put them out too far and everything goes wrong.

Yeah. Tarkin makes everything feel easy smooth. He's great for squadron lists btw. If you can fit him.

Motti feels like a crutch to me. While he is nice, he really is not providing me much with anything. Sure there are times that having a ship last longer would be nice but it is not part of my battle plan.

I think people using Motti expect their ISDs and VSDs to be invincible. ... and then they put them out too far and everything goes wrong.

Yeah. Tarkin makes everything feel easy smooth. He's great for squadron lists btw. If you can fit him.

I definitely saw that happen more than once. The risk adverse effect of Motti ! Much like first time Mon Mothma players were throwing their CR90 at medium range of a VSD's front arc hoping they would survive. How sweet.

Armada: a game where your ability to focus down one ship at a time is a big part of winning... how is Motti bad and/or a crutch?

Admittedly he's not my favorite, but you have to admit there are many games where his ability provides a fleet with some much-needed staying power?

I think, as many have said, weakest is determined by what types of list you like to fly. Ozzel is being stated as being weak, but I have a 4 Gladiator list with Engine Techs that would heavily dispute that. With Navigate commands I can go from speed 1 to an equivalent of speed 4 every turn and be pretty much immune to tractor beams.

Rieekan is posed as weak unless you run a lot of named squadrons and then he isn't weak anymore.

None of these admirals is weak, they are all just situational depending on your list.

Armada: a game where your ability to focus down one ship at a time is a big part of winning... how is Motti bad and/or a crutch?

Admittedly he's not my favorite, but you have to admit there are many games where his ability provides a fleet with some much-needed staying power?

I would vote for Rieekan as possibly being the weakest. Each admiral is good when he or she has their fleet tailored to fit their ability but the depressing thing about Rieekan is that you have to start losing ship and squadrons in order to get to use his ability and even then it only works if the ship or squadron hasn't already acted in the turn that it dies. Obviously there are ways that you can leverage this slightly (not bothering to activates ships/squadron early on in the turn that you are expecting to die for example) but it's harder to 'get the most out of' than it is for other Admirals.