Steelhorn tweaked- too powerful?

By Udutont, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Posted at

Fizz said:

In regards to Steelhorns, where in the rules does it say that if you declare a RUN action, you have to SPEND ALL of your movement points? Obviously, if he plans on moving less than his normal movement (4), then and ADVANCE action is the intelligent choice. But as other posters have pointed out, if he needs to open/close a door, drink a potion, or do anything else in the turn that takes up movement points, his ability isn't so bad. As for moving diagonally, as long as it's in a straight line, that makes sense.

Another thing to consider is on the SoB island maps and on the Revenge (which can get to be quite long) there is alot of space for for Steelhorns to really get a good charge in.

Also, Have you ever seen Steelhorns with the Acrobat skill? Shudder.

I can't quite remember all the details, but I was OLing a game where my nephew had Steelhorns with a movement bonus. He was adjacent to a door, opened it after declaring a run, moved about 4 spaces when I pitted him, he took the damage, climbed out and kept going, moved the remaining spaces he had left, and with his last fatigue moved one more space to get an attack on a master beastman. He killed it in one shot. We laughed pretty hard about that.

I personally like Steelhorns.

Posted at

RhunDraco said:

shnar said:

Celtic Joker said:

I have another question regarding Steelhorns's ability:

What is considered a straight line?

Is is only the 4 orthogonals, or the 4 orthogonals and the 4 diagonals? Or is it even any "line of sight"-straight line that I can trace and cross without obstacles?

If it is the latter, it would make the ability much better!

We started with orthogonals and added diagonals and have now simply decided the LOS route. If SteelHorns has LOS to the square he wants to move to, that means he can move in a "straight" line from where he is to that target square, or at least as straight as Descent's squares allow it. Gives his ability a little more flexibility.

-shnar

That's an excellent way of doing it, I'm setting that as a house rule for Steelhorns. Thx!

I don't think this is a "house-rule", as it could be argued "straight-line" as written really is LOS. It's a straight line from my square to the other square, regardless of how many squares it goes through.

But however you decide to play, the key I think is to make sure all the players agree BEFORE playing that that's how Steelhorns works.

-shnar

Posted at

shnar said:

I don't think this is a "house-rule", as it could be argued "straight-line" as written really is LOS. It's a straight line from my square to the other square, regardless of how many squares it goes through.

But however you decide to play, the key I think is to make sure all the players agree BEFORE playing that that's how Steelhorns works.

-shnar

The problem with that theory is that while LOS is space A straight to space F, movement is space A to space B to space C to space D etc (with a few exceptions for Leap and jumping pits). So what is a straight line for LOS is not a straight line for movement.
Steelhorns requirement is that he move in a straight line, not that he be able to see is final position at the beginning of his turn.

Worse, looking at the Leap rules they use the same language (moves in a straight line) but then define it as only horizontal or vertical, and explicitly not diagonal. Given that a) Steelhorns is not a particularly strong hero, b) even allowing diagonals it is not an easy special ability to use and c) Leap description is/was necessarily restricted by large figure movement rules when it was written (Bloodapes being 2x1 figures) so may not be fairly used to define all 'straight line' movement, I am happy including diagonals which are obviously 'straight' lines.

However the problem with the LOS ruling is that it allows Steelhorns to deviate freely to avoid obstacles or even go backwards and pass items to other heroes (or loot treasures etc) before completely changing direction to attack the target which has been in LOS the whole time. I think that is pretty obviously not the intent of 'having to move in a straight line' (and I am sure no one abuses your ruling like that either!)

But I do agree, the single most important thing is that you have agreement on how you play it before you start.

Posted at

Corbon said:

However the problem with the LOS ruling is that it allows Steelhorns to deviate freely to avoid obstacles or even go backwards and pass items to other heroes (or loot treasures etc) before completely changing direction to attack the target which has been in LOS the whole time. I think that is pretty obviously not the intent of 'having to move in a straight line' (and I am sure no one abuses your ruling like that either!)

I feel that both sides could be argued, due to the vagaries of the rules (like that's never happened before ;) ) and how his ability is written. But I don't understand what you mean by the above ruling. How would there be obstacles in his way if he can draw LOS to the area? Thinking through it, if he can SEE the square, couldn't he move "straight" to it? I guess we're talking about Water? The way we play it, we still move Steelhorns "straight", just as straight as the squares allow it. So he cannot "deviate" from this path, cannot go backwards, give items to heroes, etc.

So, there are 3 possibilities to Steelhorns' ability:

- Straight means only orthogonal directions (horizontal and vertical)
- Straight also means diagonal
- Straight also is "as the arrow flys", meaning draw LOS to the square Steelhorns wants to move to, then move him as straight as possible to that square.

In all 3 cases, Steelhorns still has to move "straight" and cannot deviate around obstacles or move backwards, etc. I think that all three could be reasonably argued so it's up to your group on how you want to play it. I also think that all 3 perform in game terms what I believe Steelhorns' ability to be, a running charge, ramming into his opponent. He grinds the earth and CHAARRRGGEE!!! into the monsters.

Having said all this, do all his MPs have to be spent on movement? Could he drink a potion before moving? Give an item to a hero as he's passing by? And I think this was discussed, but what happens when his charge is interrupted by Crushing Block?

-shnar

Posted at

shnar said:

as straight as the squares allow it.

If the squares do not allow straight, then it ain't straight.

If Steelhorns has to change directions even just once during his run, he is not running straight and cannot attack at the end of his run.

Posted at

But that's what I'm saying, I can see this being reasonably argued either way. I can see someone arguing "straight" as meaning only vertical and horizontal. I can also see someone arguing that he hasn't changed directions, he's going *straight* to the target square, he just happens to be passing through "corners" of squares (which you of course count as MPs spend).

Since the writing of the ability /is/ so vague, your party will simply have to decide how to interpret the ability and use it how you will :)

-shnar

Posted at

shnar said:

1) Having said all this, do all his MPs have to be spent on movement? 2) Could he drink a potion before moving? 3) Give an item to a hero as he's passing by? And I think this was discussed, but 4) what happens when his charge is interrupted by Crushing Block?

-shnar

His movement must be straight, but it is nowhere required that he must spend all his MP on movement. So

1) No

2) Yes

3) Yes. He could even open a chest (or a door) during his run and still have his attack at the end of it (Steelhorns is, actually, a good door opener even if it is somewhat risky)! happy.gif

4) As soon as his movement isn't straight anymore, he loses his free attack. A Crushing Block would probably accomplish this if the OL doesn't move Steelhorns in an adjacent space that is on his intended run line.

Posted at

shnar said:

But that's what I'm saying, I can see this being reasonably argued either way. I can see someone arguing "straight" as meaning only vertical and horizontal. I can also see someone arguing that he hasn't changed directions, he's going *straight* to the target square, he just happens to be passing through "corners" of squares (which you of course count as MPs spend).

Since the writing of the ability /is/ so vague, your party will simply have to decide how to interpret the ability and use it how you will :)

-shnar

Hm. It seemed to me that for once, it wasn't written in a vague way.

Descent comes with a directions marker that shows where north is. If Steelhorns wants to go from square A to square B:

XB

XX

AX

He can first go north, but then he must go northeast, and thus change directions. Or he can first go northeast, then go north. But he cannot reach square B by going all the time north, or all the time northeast. At one point, he must change directions.

In Descent, you move square by square, as Corbon said. Going straight to a square (i.e. the shortest way to a square) is not the same as going in a straight line to a square.

Posted at

And I can see why someone would disagree (hence the diagonal argument). I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that both in my opinion are valid interpretations.

But back on Crushing Block, Steelhorns is still moving straight, it was the OL that moved him off his path. Following your interpretation, as long as he is moving directly north, he hasn't changed his direction, so why couldn't he continue moving "up" and still make his attack?

-shnar

Posted at

Ispher said:

shnar said:

But that's what I'm saying, I can see this being reasonably argued either way. I can see someone arguing "straight" as meaning only vertical and horizontal. I can also see someone arguing that he hasn't changed directions, he's going *straight* to the target square, he just happens to be passing through "corners" of squares (which you of course count as MPs spend).

Since the writing of the ability /is/ so vague, your party will simply have to decide how to interpret the ability and use it how you will :)

-shnar

Hm. It seemed to me that for once, it wasn't written in a vague way.

Descent comes with a directions marker that shows where north is. If Steelhorns wants to go from square A to square B:

XB

XX

AX

He can first go north, but then he must go northeast, and thus change directions. Or he can first go northeast, then go north. But he cannot reach square B by going all the time north, or all the time northeast. At one point, he must change directions.

In Descent, you move square by square, as Corbon said. Going straight to a square (i.e. the shortest way to a square) is not the same as going in a straight line to a square.

exactly.
Sorrt shnar, you keep saying that you think it can be reasonably argued. We are pointing out why that argument is not reasonable. You are using a 'straight ' definition from LOS and applying it to Movement where the mechanics of the two are not the same. The ability is clearly worded. He must.. move. in . a. straight. line.

You can argue all you like that A to B is a straight line, but the simple fact is that he moved in two different directions to get there, so his movement is not in a straight line. That makes the LOS 'straight' interpretation invalid.

As for crushing block, I agree (shnar's last post came in while I was writing this one) that it is the OL moving Steelhorns, not Steelhorns moving so CB movement does not count. OTOH unless the OL moves him along his line (or back along his line and he has Acrobat/Fly to pass through the Block) then his movement will not be in a straight line anymore. Either he continues in the same direction (which produces two parallel straight lines of Steelhorns movement joined by an offset line of OL movement) or he kinks around the block rejoining his old line (which produces a straight line with a kink in it around the block). Neither results in an overall straight line so he is out of luck.