It seems to me that Steelhorn's ability is almost useless, especially in RtL (small dungeons). Question to Descent vets: would Steelhorn become too good if only half of its move had to be in a straight line? i.e. its ability would read as follows: "Steelhorn can make one Melee attack when he declares a Run action. The last four steps of his movement must be in a straight line and he must end his movement after making the attack"

That looks about right. Compared to Tahlia he is now a decent character, not a highly situational character whose ability is unlikely to come up frequently enough to matter (and could end up never coming up in an entire game).

Personally, I don't think it would be terribly overpowering if you simply removed "The last four steps must be in a straight line." Make it so he can move however he wants, he just has to stop after making the attack. This would be a pretty good ability, but he'd still be FAR from broken the way some characters are (Zyla always, Nanok in RtL).

There are plenty of characters who need fixing of their special abilities or attributes. I don't mean that every ability should be useful in every situation but at least it should not be absolutely clear what to pick every time.

By letting Steelhorn to run and hit freely does not make him OP.

Udutont said:

Steelhorns is already quite good. The ability to get in a (n melee) attack while moving more than 6 spaces is very rare - basically only Steelhorns and One-Hand (well, Tahlia I guess).

He is also only worth 3 CT, not bad for a 16/1.

Give him a Reach weapon. He becomes quite nasty then (especially with Weapon Mastery, since the Reach weapons like surges).

Thanks for the feedback!

Corbon said:

Sure, Steelhorns is far from useless, however, his special ability seems to be. Yes, its ability to move more than 6 spaces and attack is very rare but it is even rarer that using it is the soundest tactical option (even with the reach weapon): the requirement to move straight is just too limiting. Well at least in theory - I do not know much about practice because we usually draw more than one character (also in regular Decent). Steelhorns has been selected only once. He did not use his special ability in that game and not because of poor tactical play. In short, Steelhorns is not a bad character but he is not too good either - IMHO not one whose power should be checked by an überspecialized ability.

Steelhorns has an average stat array, completely specialized traits and skills, and a low conquest value for his survivability. It's appropriate for his ability to be on the weak side (though it certainly shouldn't be the worst in the game).

Whether it's too weak can be debated, and if you want him to stand up to the best of the best, it probably is. But you could give him no ability at all and he'd still be far from the worst hero in the game. And lots of other heroes with good numbers are given extremely limited abilities (Silhouette, Astarra, Karnon...)

Antistone said:

Fair enough as regards Steelhorn. However, you got me puzzled as regards the others. Astarra's ability is extremely limited? The ability to activate glyphs at distance 6? I don't know maybe we play the game in a very different way but her ability has been a gamesaver for heroes many times in our games: Astarra securing that critical three CT, Astarra opening up that critical glyph behind a wall of monsters, Astarra running with 5 speed and 5 fatigue activating several glyphs. Also, Silhouette's ability is not that limited: e.g. you can get 3 extra fatigue with no risk of disruption. I dont find it particularly limiting compared to Steelhorns' ability.

We've yet to play Astarra, and haven't played any vanilla Descent since we got RtL, but it seems like she could be pretty useful in outflanking the enemy. She could move up close enough to activate a glyph, possibly using just fatigue and a potion so she can still battle. Then the rest of the group could pop out of the dungeon where they're safe. The 2-point runewitch dies a horrible death (assuming she couldn't also port out at the end of her last turn), and the heroes port in the glyph. It requires some fairly restricted circumstances involving the speed of the monsters and their placement, but could get past a wall of monsters and into the face of a boss.

Udutont said:

I have to admit to being puzzled by Antistone's choice of weaker hero ability examples. Both Astarra's and Silhouette's abilities rate quite highly IMO, if not as high as say, Tahlia, Kirga, Nanok or Carthos/Landrec. Well, maybe Silhouette is a middling only... Certainly there are better abilities, but if you want middling abilities Andira, Mordrog, Mok and Sahla would be examples, and weaker abilities would include Sir Validor, Ispher, Tetherys, Eliam and Trenloe among others.

OTOH, those heroes were primarily chosen for example because their other numbers (stats and trait/skill concentration) were very strong.

There are certainly better candidates for 'improvement' than Steelhorns.

Note that I was attempting to pick heroes with weak abilities that are otherwise excellent , which rules out many (if not all) if Corbon's "weak" suggestions.

Astarra's ability is useful specifically for guerilla warfare shenanigans, where you pop out of a glyph that would otherwise be unreachable, or get 3 CT a bit earlier if you're on the verge of losing the game. But those are somewhat limited in use, at least in vanilla; having her activate a glyph so the rest of the party can port in from town is risky going into an unrevealed area unless you've played the quest before, because there might not be a glyph in any useful position. The overlord can also block you for a turn by spawning a monster on top of the glyph with Hordes of the Things--it'll be forced to move off the turn after you activate it, but that's enough of a delay that you lose more than you gain. And if the OL doesn't do something to stop you, lots of other heroes are already tolerably good at this role. Also, if you're going to do this, it's often preferable for the runner to reach the glyph anyway, so they can teleport to safety instead of hanging around the wall of monsters--and if you want to do that, Astarra's ability buys you nothing at all.

And on the other hand, if you're not using those sorts of tactics, her ability does virtually nothing. Saves you a few movement points, maybe, during the least rushed part of the game (i.e. between fights, not during one).

Silhouette can get a guaranteed (almost--Leech exists) Rest order off, yes, but you're still spending a half-action to get that fatigue, and after paying her ability cost, it only gains you a net of 3 fatigue. Sacrificing a half-action in mid-combat to gain 3 fatigue on the next turn is usually a rather dubious play unless the Dodge helps you substantially, and at least in my group, placing a Dodge order is quite rare. And using her ability to transmute any order but a Dodge is hardly even worth considering. Maybe Dodge -> Guard, but even that's hard to use well because you can't make the interrupt attack until close to the end of the overlord's turn if you want to benefit from the Dodge.

Even when I drew Agility on Silhouette in Enduring Evil (place a Dodge order for 2 fatigue), so I could basically have a Dodge order all the time without ever spending an action on it (plus regain a fatigue each turn), I still found I often preferred to spend those 4 fatigue on something else.

Astarra and Silhouette certainly both have excellent stats, which was my point. But their abilities only matter in highly specific situations, and even in those situations, I think they're unlikely to have a huge impact. I'd usually trade their abilities for almost any other hero ability FFG has printed, including the zero-cost ones in the custom hero rules.

And Karnon is immune to a rare obstacle that can be jumped (and usually has no effect even if you don't jump it), plus a minor ability that shows up on an average of less than one monster per quest. (Yes, I know you didn't ask about him.)

Antistone said:

Dodge + Invisibility potion is every OL's worst nightmare.

Seriously.

Dodge gets used quite a lot in our games. A potion, some shields, etc, and suddenly that runner gets to run and be really hard to kill. And Silhouette is a very good runner, with superb backup as a shooter.
With a 'fast' party, she'll even get the nod over Kirga.

Antistone said:

I understand your point that chars with good stats do not need a good special ability. I can also agree that Steelhorns is better than some characters regardless of his pitiful ability. Nonetheless, I think that you picked a bad example with Astarra. Of course it depends on the tactics whether Astarra's ability is useful. But it certainly isn't too specific - you need to activate those glyphs. Of course, there are ways that OL can limit her usefulness. (Although it is rather difficult: it is not like you can have Hordes of Things cheaply and spawning on glyph to limit Astarra is often a waste of spawn etc) However, IMHO Astarra is extremely useful (the best character) for certain tactics. If you have Astarra, you will use these tactics. Steelhorns' ability cannot compete in any meaningful way.

Steelhorns ability is too limited if all his movement has to be in a straight line, and even worse, if you actually got the opportunity to use it, the OL could easily thwart it with a crushing block. Modifying it to a run that ends its move next to the target probably isn't overpowered, and you might also add in that the target needs to have been in Steelhorns' LoS from the start of his turn and/or that he must stop moving in the first space he reaches adjacent to the target

I have another question regarding Steelhorns's ability:

What is considered a straight line?

Is is only the 4 orthogonals, or the 4 orthogonals and the 4 diagonals? Or is it even any "line of sight"-straight line that I can trace and cross without obstacles?

If it is the latter, it would make the ability much better!

Celtic Joker said:

We started with orthogonals and added diagonals and have now simply decided the LOS route. If SteelHorns has LOS to the square he wants to move to, that means he can move in a "straight" line from where he is to that target square, or at least as straight as Descent's squares allow it. Gives his ability a little more flexibility.

-shnar

I agree Silhouette's ability is very weak (frankly, it would be merely slightly-above-average if it had no fatigue cost at all). I'm not quite so convinced about Astarra- as has been pointed out, at least you can virtually garuantee that it will do *something*, even if it only to save you 10 or so movement points over the course of the game. I think Antistone is underrating it.

Karnon's ability is of course quite weak. The fear immunity is probably the best bit of it, and even that is hardly spectacular even if it is relevant.

I do not believe his ability is too bad because Steelhorns is worth three CT and moves four. There are tanks with better health and armor but for his CT and speed I feel he has great stats. Steelhorns ability reminds me of Borgan who has a weaker ability than Mad Carthos but is the only person who rolls two ranged dice and is only worth two CT. Both abilities are not optimal but all on characters worth less than their peers.

As for how his ability can be used well, remember that not all the movement has to be used on "real" movement. I have once seen him hand off a potion and move 5 spaces then attack (6 movement points), and another time move one space, open a door, and move four spaces and attack (7 movement points).

As for tweaks and house rules, there is one I like. Once as overlord, I let someone use Steelhorn's ability even though he first used the Ring of Quickness's free move before the "charge." I know that is not RAW but I felt it was creative and did not break the intention of the ability as we interpreted it.

That's what I wanted to hear. Thanks.

We have recently started a new RtL campaign with Steelhorns. And the smaller size of the dungeons already limits his ability. The LoS ruling sort of makes up for it.

Now let's hope that our Overlord goes along with it.

one thing most of you have over looked with the rune witch is in an advanced campaign her ability is halfed so only 3 squares making her a lot less usefull

wblackthorn

Having thought a bit more about it, I think I'm definitely in disagreement that Astarra's ability is weak: if anything it's overpowered (I'm discussing the non-campaign game here, though off the cuff, I think it's still reasonable even at 3 spaces). The point of it is that it essentially increases your maximum runner-range by six, which is enormous. There is a great deal of value in a runner that can run all the way from one glyph to the next in one turn. Although they'll probably die at the end of their turn (unless they started in the dungeon, which they probably didn't, and have the movement to move to town after activating the new glyph), the overlord has no way to stop them other than traps, which mostly won't one-shot a hero and only delay them 2 spaces each, meaning the overlord probably needs 2-3 traps in their hand and the treachery to pay them to stop the runner.

Once the runner's grabbed a new glyph, the other heroes can come out of it and clear the area if necessary (if the runner has acrobat, which Astarra thankfully can't start with, this isn't even necessary), and the runner can repeat the operation. You lose 2 conquest per cycle (it takes about 2 turns per cycle, unless you're lucky with Acrobat), but that's OK because you gain 3 conquest + chests per cycle, which covers the occasional death of another hero as well.

Anyway, back on track, the best "normal" runners have a maximum range of 19 (5 move *2, +5 fatigue *2 -1 to drink a fatigue potion). Astarra gets 6 extra spaces on that, and essentially has Acrobat+++ for the last 6 spaces, as they can be blocked with anything whatsoever and she can still get the glyph. The overlord can't even stop it by getting a monster on top of the glyph.

In regards to Steelhorns, where in the rules does it say that if you declare a RUN action, you have to SPEND ALL of your movement points? Obviously, if he plans on moving less than his normal movement (4), then and ADVANCE action is the intelligent choice. But as other posters have pointed out, if he needs to open/close a door, drink a potion, or do anything else in the turn that takes up movement points, his ability isn't so bad. As for moving diagonally, as long as it's in a straight line, that makes sense.

Another thing to consider is on the SoB island maps and on the Revenge (which can get to be quite long) there is alot of space for for Steelhorns to really get a good charge in.

Also, Have you ever seen Steelhorns with the Acrobat skill? Shudder.

Oh yeah, and one other thing, you ever see Steelhorns cross the entire deck of the Revenge and then fire a cannon?

shnar said:

That's an excellent way of doing it, I'm setting that as a house rule for Steelhorns. Thx!

James McMurray said:

In RtL, aren't glyphs only usable on the turn where you start adjacent to or on the glyph? Page 18 of the RtL manual, first paragraph:

"However, to move through an activated glyph, a hero must begin his turn on or adjacent to it. "

Or was that FAQ'd out? I'll check . . .