I use the house rule that those without a presence in the warp or the Illuminati are immune to instead of resistant to Psychic energies. It has not caused any trouble in my games, I just plan for it. And when one enters the warp they suffer no ill effects from doing so, other than needing a vac sealed suit so the can breathe in some areas. Same goes for strong Psykers. They exert enough control over their immediate surroundings to be okay. Even to the point of making breathable air. I like this better because it makes the warp seem less unbeatable and inevitable. There SHOULD be a small number of people who are completely immune to chaos. They can still be cut in half with a chain sword or riddled with holes from a bolter so they're not unbalanced.

Why are you even playing 40k anymore... by your last few posts I cannot fathom what you actually enjoy about the setting except for the basic sci-fi elements of it. If you are set on subverting every aspect of the warp to suit your own ends then just create a homebrew system and be done with it.

Dude, depending on the source all the above mentioned character types used to be immune anyway. I feel they still should be. I love 40k, I just think it has some flaws and I'm smoothing them out in my own campaign. I'm not asking you to play in it. You're a purist, I get it. Anything I change makes me not really love the one true 40k as defined by you. It's a house rule. I'll play it my way and you can jump down off my back because you're getting kinda heavy.

I would suggest a change as Nulls have been shown in the books to be affected by powerful psykers before. Maybe do something like this; subtract the number of Untouchable Talents from the Psy Rating of the Power used. It gives Psykers a reason to over-cast occasionally, while providing plenty of protection. That said, a PR10 Psyker should be hard as hell to resist. Also, their sanity should still be shredded by direct exposure to the Warp. It'd be like looking at Cthulhu. Being a Null also provides no protection from Corruption. That comes from more than just Daemons and the Warp.

The Illuminati have no reason to be Psychic-Immune, as they're not Null. They're self-Exorcised, which doesn't prevent a Molten Beam from plowing a hole in your chest. Even if they're 'immune' to Chaos, that still wouldn't protect their sanity from the mind-warping of the Immaterium. They're your small number of Chaos-immune, so I'd suggest not giving the trait around willy-nilly. Even Sisters of Battle aren't immune in the game, they merely take the punch straight to the sanity along with whatever Insanity points they already earned by the event.

Psykers should definitely NOT be protected from the Warp; they're conduits connected to it. Unless they're actively sustaining some kind of powerful form of Theosophamy it is BAD for them to be exposed. And again, it's a sanity shredding vortex of energy.

I'm not going to get into the argument about whether the Warp should or shouldn't be inevitable. I'm suggesting you not start taking an extremely rare and plot-important thing and start handing it around like candy. If Nulls were immune to Corruption, they'd all automatically get drafted, just like if Psykers didn't have to fear the Warp and could control it like that, they wouldn't be feared and such a risk.

There SHOULD be a small number of people who are completely immune to chaos. They can still be cut in half with a chain sword or riddled with holes from a bolter so they're not unbalanced.

There shouldn't.

Even C'Tan and other monstrous non-psychic creatures aren't completely immune.

Well, seems I hit a nerve lol http://prntscr.com/9zwdxg . Deep and compelling evidence he provides there, really furthers the discussion.

I need no evidence. I don't have to defend my choices to anyone. I put my house rule in the house rule thread, you start mouthing off about how I like 40k wrong. Stop trolling and let it go. You don't have to like my ideas and I could care less if you do.

You provided no actual house-rule and no explanation for your proposed changes beyond you not liking the current status quo. Then you also found it necessary to insult me over private message and tell me to stop calling you out for the simple fact that you cherry-pick elements of 40k and shun the rest when they don't fit with your narrow perspective.

Furthermore, judging from your PM and the way you blatantly ignore anyone saying something opposed to your interpretation I daresay you should just keep your opinions to yourself and spare us your presence here.

Well, seems I hit a nerve lol http://prntscr.com/9zwdxg . Deep and compelling evidence he provides there, really furthers the discussion.

Please tell me that you clicked that report link in his PM.

A moderator has been informed, my job is done.

Yeah, your 'house rule' doesn't really fit the setting. Some of it, I get. Making Psykers SAFE in the WARP, of all places? Yeah, no.

There's nothing in my message that violates the terms on this site. And in the first thread I encountered you in SCKoNi you made enough of a compelling argument that I changed my approach a bit. I'm a reasonable guy but you seem determined to trash everything I say on here. I'm not going away so you just need to make peace with my presence.

I would suggest a change as Nulls have been shown in the books to be affected by powerful psykers before. Maybe do something like this; subtract the number of Untouchable Talents from the Psy Rating of the Power used. It gives Psykers a reason to over-cast occasionally, while providing plenty of protection. That said, a PR10 Psyker should be hard as hell to resist. Also, their sanity should still be shredded by direct exposure to the Warp. It'd be like looking at Cthulhu. Being a Null also provides no protection from Corruption. That comes from more than just Daemons and the Warp.

The Illuminati have no reason to be Psychic-Immune, as they're not Null. They're self-Exorcised, which doesn't prevent a Molten Beam from plowing a hole in your chest. Even if they're 'immune' to Chaos, that still wouldn't protect their sanity from the mind-warping of the Immaterium. They're your small number of Chaos-immune, so I'd suggest not giving the trait around willy-nilly. Even Sisters of Battle aren't immune in the game, they merely take the punch straight to the sanity along with whatever Insanity points they already earned by the event.

Psykers should definitely NOT be protected from the Warp; they're conduits connected to it. Unless they're actively sustaining some kind of powerful form of Theosophamy it is BAD for them to be exposed. And again, it's a sanity shredding vortex of energy.

I'm not going to get into the argument about whether the Warp should or shouldn't be inevitable. I'm suggesting you not start taking an extremely rare and plot-important thing and start handing it around like candy. If Nulls were immune to Corruption, they'd all automatically get drafted, just like if Psykers didn't have to fear the Warp and could control it like that, they wouldn't be feared and such a risk.

Fair points. The Illuminati I can see being affected by psychic powers wielded by non chaos entities. And you have a point with Nulls. Pariahs are full blown immune in my mind though. And powerful Psykers are affected by the warp in bad ways but what about Kaldor Draigo? He has been running around the chaos gods domains for a while now and he seems to be fine.

They should be affected by all psychic powers. Immunity to Corruption doesn't make you immune to being electrocuted or immolated or mind-probed. Now, their Willpower should be high enough that trying to read their mind is generally futile for anything that isn't a Herald of Tzeentch or worse, but that isn't immunity.

Kaldor Draigo is a singular entity. You can't use one to justify them all. His (and only his) ability to do so sort of highlights how rare it is. One Grey Knight out of the chapter, out of all Space Marines, out of all of Mankind, is shown to be able to do that. Seems is also a good way of phrasing it. That doesn't mean you should hand it out to every Null/Pariah (which are basically the same thing at the moment), Psyker or Illuminati floating around. It makes the Warp weak, much less of a threat than it should be.

P.S. Kaldor Draigo is an absolute **** example for 40K writing, in my opinion. He's one of the most Mary Sue characters in the setting. Killing a Daemon Prince by himself in his first fight? Banishing Daemonic Primarchs? Seriously? The theory that he's actually in some kind of Chaos-engineered pipe-dream manipulating his emotions is so much more interesting.

P.P.S. If you don't see what's wrong with what you said to SCKoNi, you might want to look it over again. Seriously?

Yeah I really don't. It was a short message. I said to back off, told him I'd been playing 40k since he was prepubescent, and pointed out that everyone is allowed to like the game in their own unique way. I told him these things in an aggressive manner but I see no reason for the b_tthurt to flow over that.

So what if it was short? Long or short, it's insulting. Your 'experience' doesn't mean squat, and trying to bring in their sexual experience is ludicrous. Sure, you can like the game whichever way you like (though people can diverge from the original sources to an extent that the connection is tenuous); that doesn't mean you should act in an 'aggressive' manner.

You don't even know their gender, or what they're into.

This isn't me saying your should apologize or anything like that; this is me saying maybe you should look at your 'experience' and act like you have some. It's called common courtesy?

First off, DH2 has different levels of nulls. Which makes sense in background, since not every null is going to be exactly as powerful as any other. So you can run the gamut from "barely resistant to warp energies" to "culexis assassin material".

Second, the warp is never safe. For anyone. A null exposed to pure warp energies for long enough will suffer and then die. A psyker is even worse, they are a living bridge to the warp to begin with. Both will last longer than a mere human if only because of stronger willpower (which matters more against the warp) but their fate is sealed.

Draigo is from that godawful 5th edition codex. The one mocked widely for such whoppers as "Grey knights murder Sororitas to make themselves even *more* immune to chaos".

Second, the warp is never safe. For anyone. A null exposed to pure warp energies for long enough will suffer and then die.

This obviously depends on one's interpretation of a Null, but I'm pretty much in the same boat. From my understanding, the difference with a Null or Pariah is that they "have no soul" (literally or figuratively) and as such are less connected to the Warp on a psychic level, so much so that they can be entirely invisible to daemonic entities.

However, they still inhabit a physical body, and this one is at risk from suffering a number of "side-effects" that exposure to the Warp can bring. The Warp, in my interpretation, is the raw stuff of creation, which is how and why conscious psychics (mortal or otherwise) can shape it into all sorts of things, from fireballs to objects to daemons. And just like the Warp gives birth to daemonic entities conjured by the galactic subconscious (e.g. Slaanesh), it can also give birth to less fantastical yet still dangerous effects within its domain, such as a sudden change of temperature, gravity, consistency, even time.

In short: Yeah, a Null may have a better chance or even outright guarantee of preventing psychic contamination, but they can still get cooked, frozen, torn apart, trapped or flash-aged. And maybe this helps explain Draigo a bit as well, as being a Space Marine may have provided that character with a higher resilience to counter those effects to some degree -- although I'd still caution to take legends in the fluff as 100% gospel. I've seen a number of rather peculiar fan theories about what Draigo could be, or what his entrapment means.

The one mocked widely for such whoppers as "Grey knights murder Sororitas to make themselves even *more* immune to chaos".

I actually think it was an intriguing scientific explanation. Up to this point, people didn't know how the GK - being psykers themselves - actually ensure their incorruptability. That some didn't like the answer because they preferred a different one ( "it's all in the geneseed! nevermind that even the Primarchs got corrupted" ) doesn't make this theory/option any less valid.

It's a matter of taste/preference, though. I am generally biased towards a somewhat less "Epic" 40k that's a bit more down-to-earth, and try to poke holes into various legends, possible hyperbole and supposedly supernatural events or abilities.

Second, the warp is never safe. For anyone. A null exposed to pure warp energies for long enough will suffer and then die.

This obviously depends on one's interpretation of a Null, but I'm pretty much in the same boat. From my understanding, the difference with a Null or Pariah is that they "have no soul" (literally or figuratively) and as such are less connected to the Warp on a psychic level, so much so that they can be entirely invisible to daemonic entities.

However, they still inhabit a physical body, and this one is at risk from suffering a number of "side-effects" that exposure to the Warp can bring. The Warp, in my interpretation, is the raw stuff of creation, which is how and why conscious psychics (mortal or otherwise) can shape it into all sorts of things, from fireballs to objects to daemons. And just like the Warp gives birth to daemonic entities conjured by the galactic subconscious (e.g. Slaanesh), it can also give birth to less fantastical yet still dangerous effects within its domain, such as a sudden change of temperature, gravity, consistency, even time.

In short: Yeah, a Null may have a better chance or even outright guarantee of preventing psychic contamination, but they can still get cooked, frozen, torn apart, trapped or flash-aged. And maybe this helps explain Draigo a bit as well, as being a Space Marine may have provided that character with a higher resilience to counter those effects to some degree -- although I'd still caution to take legends in the fluff as 100% gospel. I've seen a number of rather peculiar fan theories about what Draigo could be, or what his entrapment means.

The one mocked widely for such whoppers as "Grey knights murder Sororitas to make themselves even *more* immune to chaos".

I actually think it was an intriguing scientific explanation. Up to this point, people didn't know how the GK - being psykers themselves - actually ensure their incorruptability. That some didn't like the answer because they preferred a different one ( "it's all in the geneseed! nevermind that even the Primarchs got corrupted" ) doesn't make this theory/option any less valid.

It's a matter of taste/preference, though. I am generally biased towards a somewhat less "Epic" 40k that's a bit more down-to-earth, and try to poke holes into various legends, possible hyperbole and supposedly supernatural events or abilities.

I don't have a problem with darker explanations for the Grey Knights abilities. I can't recall the source but I'm pretty sure the creation of some of their wargear involves the sacrifice of truly innocent people.

One of my many problems with the "Khornate Knights" incident is that without the Sisters' blood splattered on them, the Grey Knights are implied to have been doomed. Which leads to the awkward question of "why don't they keep a stock of pure victims handy for when they need extra immunity in similar situations?". For me the whole sorry incident doesn't hang together. The specialised daemon hunters leaving themselves at the whim of whether expendable allies are present just sounds dumb.

Which leads to the awkward question of "why don't they keep a stock of pure victims handy for when they need extra immunity in similar situations?"

I've interpreted in as the GK's usually not needing this extra layer of protection. They have their special training and their wards, which usually is enough to shield them. This was an extreme case, however, so they really needed that +1.

It's also possible that the minimum level of purity required for this ritual isn't as easy to come by as you suggest. At least in GW studio material, the Sororitas are touted as being among the purest people in the Imperium (a trait manifested on the tabletop as special resilience against psychic powers in some editions), which probably goes back to their "blank slate" upbringing and devotional way of life.

I'm sure it could be reproduced in some way, allowing to take along a sacrifice similar to the role of the psykers that fuel the Golden Throne on Terra, but is it really practical to drag some poor shmuck along on every single deployment just on the 0.0001% off chance he's going to be needed? Including the possibility for them to die as collateral damage even during missions where their trait wouldn't be required, which the GK's wouldn't know before investigating anyways?

Alternatively, perhaps the level of purity required for the ritual isn't as high after all, and almost anyone would do, including a fellow GK. And perhaps this happened several times already and we just didn't read about them before. The only thing that matters is that the Grey Knights are equipped with this exotic knowledge in order to produce the desired effect when the situation calls for it, which probably isn't very often.

It's a bit like soldiers learning to make a campfire. They don't carry it as part of their equipment, but they know how to make one.

Apologies for playing devil's demon's advocate; I just considered this interpretation too interesting to pass up on.

Which leads to the awkward question of "why don't they keep a stock of pure victims handy for when they need extra immunity in similar situations?"

I've interpreted in as the GK's usually not needing this extra layer of protection. They have their special training and their wards, which usually is enough to shield them. This was an extreme case, however, so they really needed that +1.

It's also possible that the minimum level of purity required for this ritual isn't as easy to come by as you suggest. At least in GW studio material, the Sororitas are touted as being among the purest people in the Imperium (a trait manifested on the tabletop as special resilience against psychic powers in some editions), which probably goes back to their "blank slate" upbringing and devotional way of life.

I'm sure it could be reproduced in some way, allowing to take along a sacrifice similar to the role of the psykers that fuel the Golden Throne on Terra, but is it really practical to drag some poor shmuck along on every single deployment just on the 0.0001% off chance he's going to be needed? Including the possibility for them to die as collateral damage even during missions where their trait wouldn't be required, which the GK's wouldn't know before investigating anyways?

Alternatively, perhaps the level of purity required for the ritual isn't as high after all, and almost anyone would do, including a fellow GK. And perhaps this happened several times already and we just didn't read about them before. The only thing that matters is that the Grey Knights are equipped with this exotic knowledge in order to produce the desired effect when the situation calls for it, which probably isn't very often.

It's a bit like soldiers learning to make a campfire. They don't carry it as part of their equipment, but they know how to make one.

Apologies for playing devil's demon's advocate; I just considered this interpretation too interesting to pass up on.

It is an interesting argument and I certainly won't knock someone for playing devil's advocate.

On the scarcity of sacrifices and potential wastage, I point to the Grey Knight's gear and supplies in general. They are denied nothing the Imperium can provide. Their standard wargear includes items that would be relics in any other chapter. Wrist-mounted storm bolters? Warded armour? Unique patterns of force weapons? Their gear begins at that level and goes up if anything.

Considering that one thing the Imperium is not short of is humanity itself, I find it difficult to accept that if the Grey Knights knew of a potential weakness in their defenses, that they would be denied admittedly rare "pure" sacrifices-in-waiting. Even if a stasis chamber on their ships was only opened once a millennium, they would surely have it full of acceptable sacrifices for when those rare humans are otherwise unavailable.

Even if a stasis chamber on their ships was only opened once a millennium, they would surely have it full of acceptable sacrifices for when those rare humans are otherwise unavailable.

Well .. who says they don't?

I admit I didn't consider the existence of stasis chambers to effective put people "in the fridge", but then you still have the issue of ready availability. The Grey Knights would have to determine the sacrifice to be necessary, and actually return to their ship to prepare. That's an hour of time that could easily decide whether or not the GKs can still make a difference. So whenever possible, it'd make sense to use what is "locally available".

Oh, and I just thought of another possibility: Perhaps the sacrifice was wholly unnecessary and the GKs just carried it out because of some odd ritual's description in their tomes of forbidden knowledge. The sort of "ritual" that protects as well as making the sign of the Aquila, but which is taken at face value because in the 41st Millennium, people don't know the difference between knowledge and superstition. Grimdark!

(of course, even with this theory it could still make sense for them to keep their own sacrifices, similar to the test-slaves harvested for creation of new Astartes Chapters)

Even if a stasis chamber on their ships was only opened once a millennium, they would surely have it full of acceptable sacrifices for when those rare humans are otherwise unavailable.

Well .. who says they don't?

I admit I didn't consider the existence of stasis chambers to effective put people "in the fridge", but then you still have the issue of ready availability. The Grey Knights would have to determine the sacrifice to be necessary, and actually return to their ship to prepare. That's an hour of time that could easily decide whether or not the GKs can still make a difference. So whenever possible, it'd make sense to use what is "locally available".

Oh, and I just thought of another possibility: Perhaps the sacrifice was wholly unnecessary and the GKs just carried it out because of some odd ritual's description in their tomes of forbidden knowledge. The sort of "ritual" that protects as well as making the sign of the Aquila, but which is taken at face value because in the 41st Millennium, people don't know the difference between knowledge and superstition. Grimdark!

(of course, even with this theory it could still make sense for them to keep their own sacrifices, similar to the test-slaves harvested for creation of new Astartes Chapters)

The aquila *might* protect the Grey Knights better, between faith and seriously intense pysker training. While ignorance would be a more appropriate reason, I think it less likely. Still an improvement over the original text though!

The time delay is a good point. I can't help but think a drop-pod full of pure sacrifices held in stasis would be a bit much, even though this is 40k.

The aquila *might* protect the Grey Knights better, between faith and seriously intense pysker training.

I can see what you're going for here -- in a setting where psychic phenomena can be controlled by state of mind, even superstition can have an effect. The Sororitas are a prime example for this! That being said, the same applies to believing in the supposedly protective influence of "blood wards", and indeed, belief in them might be stronger simply because this is a speshul ritual rather than something every good citizen does every single day.

I can't help but think a drop-pod full of pure sacrifices held in stasis would be a bit much, even though this is 40k.

Hilarious mental image, though!

Truly, 40k lives on its stuff existing just an inch before crazy.

The aquila *might* protect the Grey Knights better, between faith and seriously intense pysker training.

I can see what you're going for here -- in a setting where psychic phenomena can be controlled by state of mind, even superstition can have an effect. The Sororitas are a prime example for this! That being said, the same applies to believing in the supposedly protective influence of "blood wards", and indeed, belief in them might be stronger simply because this is a speshul ritual rather than something every good citizen does every single day.

I can't help but think a drop-pod full of pure sacrifices held in stasis would be a bit much, even though this is 40k.

Hilarious mental image, though!

Truly, 40k lives on its stuff existing just an inch before crazy.

There may be something to it after all...