so this is an interesting scenario that happened during a game the other night. as you can see in the picture the falcon has just moved into the face of the phantom. The template just fit, but the bases were slightly touching. The best way to describe is that no overlap occurred but the bases did touch.

So we didnt know how to rule this and ended up coin flipping. ( the result was no bumping falcon gets an action, phantom fires 5 hits, C3po guesses 1 gets 3 evades goes down to 1 hull point. return fire destroys phantom)

So I'd like to hear some input on this case? ws the coinflip decision right?

"Touching" is one of those games terms that doesn't mean what it means in normal English. In X-Wing the only way two ships can become "touching" is as the result of an overlap. So if those guys really didn't overlap at all but were in contact after the Falcon's move, they aren't "touching" for game rules purposes. Nobody loses an action, nobody loses the ability to shoot anybody.

"Touching" is one of those games terms that doesn't mean what it means in normal English. In X-Wing the only way two ships can become "touching" is as the result of an overlap. So if those guys really didn't overlap at all but were in contact after the Falcon's move, they aren't "touching" for game rules purposes. Nobody loses an action, nobody loses the ability to shoot anybody.

This is all correct, but there's a weird wrinkle:

The overlap that resulted in touching doesn't have to be in the current turn.

So if there was overlap, and thus touching, and neither ship "moves away," on the next turn they are still touching (even in game turns). Note that it's not enough that they tried to move, or partially moved, or even did a 0-stop maneuver, they have to actually move away in order for "touching" to stop.

There are very, very strange consequences of this ruling, but it's the ruling.

(Personally, I believe the rule should be that touching can only be a consequence of overlapping on the current turn. It's easy to understand and apply, and it doesn't create weird corner-cases. But -- just to be clear -- that is not how the rules stand.)

I'm pretty sure even the slightest tough is considered an overlap, as that's all it takes to, say, trigger an asteroid.

I have never seen anything that leaves room for "just barely touching" after a manuever, and I think that would be impossible to accurately measure. If there is agreement the ships' bases are in physical contact, it's an overlap. Might not require moving back along the template to find the point of contact, but still results in loss of action and not being able to fire at each other in the following round (barring card exceptions to said rules).

Page 19 of the x wing rules reference under "Touching" states this.

◊ Sometimes a round will end with two ships
touching each other, parallel, and facing the
same direction. After both ships execute
a maneuver, boost, or barrel roll, they are
not touching (even if their bases are still in
physical contact) unless they overlapped.

Seems clear that you can "physically touch" without counting as "touching" per the rule book.

I'm pretty sure even the slightest tough is considered an overlap, as that's all it takes to, say, trigger an asteroid.

I have never seen anything that leaves room for "just barely touching" after a manuever, and I think that would be impossible to accurately measure. If there is agreement the ships' bases are in physical contact, it's an overlap. Might not require moving back along the template to find the point of contact, but still results in loss of action and not being able to fire at each other in the following round (barring card exceptions to said rules).

Wilder and digitalbusker have it right: you can absolutely be touching without overlapping. "Touching" is a state you can only enter via overlapping. All ships that are "touching" are in base-to-base contact, but not all base-to-base contact is "touching". Here's my standard spiel about it.

If you don't believe me, consider the "Overlapping In-Line Ships" FAQ entry. Say my ship overlaps yours, and the front of my base runs right up against the back of your base so that our bases are perfectly parallel to each other. On the following turn, we both execute a 2-straight maneuver. The FAQ explicitly says that even though our bases are in contact with one another, there's no overlap on this turn, so we're not "touching".

Making contact does not constitute "touching."

If your ship can be placed between the end of the template and the ship or obstacle without coming down on top or pushing it out of position, it has not overlapped.

Happens infrequently, but I have had the situation in a few games by my ship or an opponent ship do that.

Also don't forget that you can barrel towards a ship and move it so that the bases are touching, without it being an overlap.

Archie

If there is agreement the ships' bases are in physical contact, it's an overlap.

That's not correct. Touching is a function of overlap, overlap is not a function of touching. In fact, the FAQ explicates at least one *specific* instance in which ships can be physically touching and not be rules-meaning touching.

The overlap that resulted in touching doesn't have to be in the current turn.

So if there was overlap, and thus touching, and neither ship "moves away," on the next turn they are still touching (even in game turns). Note that it's not enough that they tried to move, or partially moved, or even did a 0-stop maneuver, they have to actually move away in order for "touching" to stop.

...

Not quite true. An overlap state is required to start a touch but then to maintain the touch neither ship can move. A "partially moved" ship will break the "touching" state although another ship may remain physically adjacent to it. If it remained touching it would need go all the way back to its starting position.

Not quite true. An overlap state is required to start a touch but then to maintain the touch neither ship can move. A "partially moved" ship will break the "touching" state although another ship may remain physically adjacent to it. If it remained touching it would need go all the way back to its starting position.

Unfortunately, although it seems that would be true, it isn't. (I have had this discussion, at length, with Alex Davy, and used this very example.) The ruling is that the ship must move away, such that the two ships are no longer in contact, before (rules-meaning) touching is broken.

Basically, once they have overlapped and are touching, one of the ships has to finish its activation out of contact with the other ship (it has to have "moved away") for (rules-meaning) touching to be broken.

Now, granted, this won't occur very often ... it's difficult to arrange a situation in which a ship touching another ship can (a) end up touching it in another place, without (b) overlapping. But if and when it happens, the two ships are still (rules-meaning) touching.

These kinds of things are why I argue for "touching is the resulting of overlapping this turn."

Not quite true. An overlap state is required to start a touch but then to maintain the touch neither ship can move. A "partially moved" ship will break the "touching" state although another ship may remain physically adjacent to it. If it remained touching it would need go all the way back to its starting position.

Unfortunately, although it seems that would be true, it isn't. (I have had this discussion, at length, with Alex Davy, and used this very example.) The ruling is that the ship must move away, such that the two ships are no longer in contact, before (rules-meaning) touching is broken.

...

WTF!

I had a hard enough time accepting that getting blocked back to the starting position would actually count as "not moving" and thus maintain touching but that is complete BS.

You means that if, for example, a shuttle runs into the forward side of say a Falcon and performs its Stop maneuver it would remain touching even if the Falcon got to move most of its length after attempting a forward but getting blocked to push it back a little ways down the template? I understood it when something blocking the front of a ship could keep it from moving and thus maintaining a touching situation with a ship on the side but now you're saying that a ship on the side could stay touching even if on ship managed to move most of its base length forward? That is complete and utter BS even if the situation rarely arrises.

Preaching to the choir.

Who's preaching. I'm just expressing my disgust at the situation. If a ship actually moves it should be free even if that move was cut short. If that is not the case then that section about parallel ships that are touching is just BS because they are still touching just as much as another.

You want a really odd situation? Let's just say a small ship run gets T-boned by a large ship. The next turn the small ship plans a 1 straight while the large ship sits Stops. Now assuming the small ship would slide across the large ship but the 1 straight doesn't entirely clear it is it still touching assuming it didn't clear the large base? Presumably the answer is no because it completed its maneuver. Now if it would just get the very end of its maneuver get blocked (darn nubs!) it would be moved back just a fraction; apparently this would still leave it touching the large ship even though it completed 99% of the maneuver which wouldn't have had it completely clear to start with. Now if you say it's still touching then it should be forced all the way back to where it started from.

You might want to Google the phrase "preaching to the choir."