Master of Lore could return?

By Mndela, in The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game

Actually, I do think Master of Lore would be broken if the errata was removed.

Out of the Wild (OotW) can become free because Master of Lore reduces the cost to 2, then secrecy reduces the cost to 0.

With 4 Lore heroes Scroll of Isildur is also free. So if your deck is empty you can play OotW -> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW -> Second Breakfast-> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW

That's 5 OotW for the cost of 1 resource (2nd breakfast) and 2 card draw (each card draw is worth ~1/3 resource with Mithrandir's advice (which takes one card to draw 4 cards for a gain of 3 at the cost of 1 resource)) for a total of 1.66 resources. You can repeat this 3 times before you need a Will of the West, allowing you to remove 15 cards for 5 resources. Then Will of the West for 1, and draw 9 cards (costs 3). We are now at a total of 9 resources spent to get back to where we started. You need to do this ~3.5 times to kill an encounter deck. That means the total cost to remove the encounter deck from the game is around 30 resources plus setup costs. It's expensive, but not hard to do with people cooperating with Legacy of Numenor and Parting gifts, etc.

That sort of scenario shouldn't be a worry for either designers or players.

Actually, I do think Master of Lore would be broken if the errata was removed.

Out of the Wild (OotW) can become free because Master of Lore reduces the cost to 2, then secrecy reduces the cost to 0.

With 4 Lore heroes Scroll of Isildur is also free. So if your deck is empty you can play OotW -> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW -> Second Breakfast-> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW

That's 5 OotW for the cost of 1 resource (2nd breakfast) and 2 card draw (each card draw is worth ~1/3 resource with Mithrandir's advice (which takes one card to draw 4 cards for a gain of 3 at the cost of 1 resource)) for a total of 1.66 resources. You can repeat this 3 times before you need a Will of the West, allowing you to remove 15 cards for 5 resources. Then Will of the West for 1, and draw 9 cards (costs 3). We are now at a total of 9 resources spent to get back to where we started. You need to do this ~3.5 times to kill an encounter deck. That means the total cost to remove the encounter deck from the game is around 30 resources plus setup costs. It's expensive, but not hard to do with people cooperating with Legacy of Numenor and Parting gifts, etc.

That's a pretty cool trick about using secrecy to get to zero cost.

With two draws and one second breakfast that's three resources spent, so that's 15 cards removed for 9 resources. With three errataed Master of Lore, it would be 15 cards removed for 15 resources. Since you're flush enough to get the resources to get this set up in the first place, does six less resources really break the game? I would think by the time you could afford this combo and have emptied the deck and have four Lore heroes, the quest would be completely under control already anyway.

Further, since you're cooperating with multiple players to set this up, why not throw in your deck (you're drawing the whole thing anyway) A Good Harvest and a couple copies of Stand and Fight? That way you can get five Masters of Lore, covering all the Out of the Wild plays. Get the first one from someone's discard and they can reduce the cost of all three of your Masters of Lore, so the additional setup cost is just another 9 resources. Does that make it not broken anymore, or is Master of Lore *still* broken, coaster that it is?

To the extent that this combo is abusive, broken, and worth worrying about, I think the offending party has to be Out of the Wild. It's the card that both made itself free to play *and* returned itself to the deck to be played again. If errata were necessary, I would think the card to target would be to make Out of the Wild remove itself (like Will of the West does), not to blame the whole thing on Master of Lore.

With 4 Lore heroes Scroll of Isildur is also free. So if your deck is empty you can play OotW -> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW -> Second Breakfast-> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW

So somewhere in this chain needs to be a Sword-Thain to make a 4th Lore Hero or a Desperate Alliance for someone to hand you a 4th Lore Hero, no?

Ok, good combos, but really hard to get all the cards.

With 4 Lore heroes Scroll of Isildur is also free. So if your deck is empty you can play OotW -> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW -> Second Breakfast-> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW

So somewhere in this chain needs to be a Sword-Thain to make a 4th Lore Hero or a Desperate Alliance for someone to hand you a 4th Lore Hero, no?

A second Master of Lore does it, too, if we're in the land where you can use the cost reduction more than once, right?

Same deal as Out of the Wild: Two cost reduction effects. Apply Master of Lore first since it's reduction is limited, then apply the reduction on the card. Secrecy or based on number of lore heroes.

You /could/ faq it so those reductions don't stack, but it seems better for the game to keep Master of Lore's ability limited to a max of 1 card.

Yes, I'm back (after a long hiatus) and ready to write more Hasty Strokes exploring the lore of the game we love!

The card, however, remains (sadly) nerfed...

With 4 Lore heroes Scroll of Isildur is also free. So if your deck is empty you can play OotW -> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW -> Second Breakfast-> Scroll -> OotW -> Draw -> OotW

So somewhere in this chain needs to be a Sword-Thain to make a 4th Lore Hero or a Desperate Alliance for someone to hand you a 4th Lore Hero, no?

A second Master of Lore does it, too, if we're in the land where you can use the cost reduction more than once, right?

Same deal as Out of the Wild: Two cost reduction effects. Apply Master of Lore first since it's reduction is limited, then apply the reduction on the card. Secrecy or based on number of lore heroes.

You /could/ faq it so those reductions don't stack, but it seems better for the game to keep Master of Lore's ability limited to a max of 1 card.

Second Master of Lore won't help with the Scroll of Isildur, because the cost is set first based on the number of heroes, and Masters of Lore (however many you have) can only reduce to 1. Out of the Wild can only get to free because its discount is applied *after* master of Lore. Sword-Thain is the obvious way to get to free Records.

I don't really see what the max of 1 card is really preventing, even if this extreme case. You can play multiple Master of Lore, and if you can get to the end of your deck with four Lore heroes and still in secrecy, you likely could've got six Out of the Wild plays for free already with just a single errated version before you get to the bottom of your deck.

And frankly, if you can churn your entire deck with mono-Lore and are still in secrecy, I think you deserve to be able to mess with the encounter deck, not that you're likely to need any help at that point with most quests. I'm sure Seastan could do that with his eyes closed, but the only way I can think to accomplish that is with a Spirit support deck and one of those deck-churning quests from Angmar Awakened. And I won't shed any tears over messing with those quests.

I don't think errata is necessary to prevent spectacular setups from accomplishing spectacular things, and this is clearly a case that takes substantial setup and substantial resources to pull off. I think any card that potentially can be used to generate unlimited resources, cards, willpower, attack, or defense should be limited. While cost-reducers may be necessary to create some combos with other cards that are not limited, but otherwise too expensive, I think they are the wrong piece of the combo to errata. Without targetting the unlimited cards, they're just waiting for another card to come along that can set up the unlimited combo. If Horn of Gondor would have been slapped with a limit instead of Master of Lore in the first place, the combo would've been killed and *both* cards would be more useful in the current pool.