Hi everyone,

I've been toying with a few notions in the 40k universe for a while.

I'm not as much knowledgeable in necron lore as I woud be for other species or other major themes of the 40k universe. But when I read and ressearch about the C'Tan and make comparisons to the Chaos Gods, theories come to me.

My first statement would be: I think C'Tan and Chaos gods are the same creatures.

Why?

First of all, look at the themes and how similar they are:

Nightbringer: Death, destruction, slaughter. It is said that when he was incarnated in a living metal body, he slaughtered lots of Necrontyrs just for its own amusement.

Deceiver: Plots, lies, conspiracies, the deceiver as as first nature to lie, to manipulate and to make convolute conspiracies to obtain, in facts, no real ends

Bot seems to me like Khorne and Tzeenthc to some extents.

But Yggran'ya (the modeler) could be well interpreted as Tzeentch also, while the Deceiver could be presented as Slaanesh since slaanesh is also very able at lies and giving people what they want in exchange for a terrible prince (it was him who lured the Necrontyrs for the soul transferance, after all).

My second statement: The C'tan were summoned from the warp.

C'Tan where described as beings of great strenght and existing on another plane of existence (an other dimension), not really conscious of the reality around. In 40k, the concepts of other dimensions are generally warp-related (or not very much detailed, at least). Necrons had to create an engine that would let them come from their dimension to the physical realm.

They where seen eating stars. At this time, the warp was so calm that there weren't enough wrong energies to feed from, so the warp gods that were the C'Tan were feeding of stars. We must remeber that gravity as still an impact (even if to a limited or deranged extent) in the warp. So they could come a feed off these great sphere of energies in the real world, energies that are existent in the warp.

Now, what doesn't add up straight:

1-We have many concepts that are hard to relate to chaos gods or have many C'Tan that could fit one chaos god.

2-We once had dozens of C'tan of what I understand.

3-C'Tan where there long before the existence of Chaos Gods.

4-C'Tan are not able to use psychic strenght and are vulnerable to it.

Now, my thoughts about these points:

1- As greater daemons and other very powerful warp entities, they could be just representations of said gods, but that's my weakest argument.

2- This could go well with the first point, there are dozens of daemon princes and greater daemons, after all.

3-Here is the interesting part.

Even if they didn't exist at that time, eldar gods did, so warp gods were possible. But this is also said in many places (Ennemy beyond also states it) that in the warp, time is meaningless and even if slaanesh exists only since a "few" millenia, now he always existed because the warp is not bound by time nor space. They could just have been shadows from the future, limited in their acts and powers because there isn't enough in the warp for them to sense, feels and experience the real world, so they where limited to eating stars and such.

4- If heretks (like the logicians of DH1 or the dark mechanicus in general) harness warp powers to create ammos or electrecity for a huge tesla gun, the gun still projects ammo/electricity.

My theories is that since the necrons made shells to contain their gods, their god's essence power up the shell to make it use all its weapons, powers and such, but those powers are on a physical level in par with the advanced science of the necrontyrs. So warp energies containted in the shells could very well be what powers and give thoughts to the machine, but its powers are very physical indeed. On the other hand, they could be psychic for what we care for, since so few is known about their powers.

About being psychically vulerable, daemons are and psychically attuned wargear is the best way to destroy beings of the warp. (psy-canon bolts, force weapon, straightforward psychic attacks, etc.). It could mean to me that breaking C'tan living metal shells with psychic powers would send straight back their essence in the warp and bannish them there.

There are instances in game/fluff terms. See the Slinnar War Machines in one of the Deathwatch expansions; these machines are chaos-wrought and powered by a human soul, they work with plasma canon and a plasma scythe, that are powered by the soul within the war-machine, but the war-machine exudes no warp powers of itself.

My personal opinion on this:

-I like very much the C'Tan being something else than warp gods. It makes the galaxy bigger and the threat more unknowable.

-On the other hand, if think the Warp and chaos can already give whatever you like as horrors and uncomprehensible that I don't think that having something else just for having something else is necessary nor very cool.

Tell me what you think about it.

They're likely more akin to the Old Ones, or the Eldar Gods (both of which are probably the same).

They both fought in the War in Heaven (or the Eldar Gods fought in two - unlikely). It is said that the Eldar Gods, in their civil war, occasionally switched sides. If both Wars in Heaven were one and the same, this adds up to C'Tan and Eldar being the same, or similar.

Many C'Tan were smashed into Shards. As was Khaine.

Both were involved in soul-trapping technology (the Necrons being shifted into metal bodies, Eldar soulstones).

-

They're not Chaos Gods, due to the lack of psyker-related things with C'Tan. Even Khorne's daemons are attracted to where the veil is thin. Meanwhile, Slaanesh was created by the Eldar, whereas the likes of Khaine and Isha weren't.

They're not Chaos Gods, due to the lack of psyker-related things with C'Tan. Even Khorne's daemons are attracted to where the veil is thin.

C'Tan likes to eat souls, which are psychic representations of mortal beings.

I don't share your view on this point.

They don't have Daemonic servants, and don't live in the Warp (although they do appear extra-dimensional).

Their eating of souls is very much different to the Warp-related psychic shenanigans we see from others.

However, it's entirely possible that the existence of the C'Tan could have inspired the creation of the Chaos Gods. Worship of them, or following their example, could have led psychically attuned species into inadvertently creating Gods sharing some of their characteristics.

But yeah, they aren't Chaos Gods. If they were like Chaos Gods, the Necrons would destroy the Chaos Gods pretty handily, or chain them up or whatever.

They don't have Daemonic servants, and don't live in the Warp (although they do appear extra-dimensional).

Well, as much as a daemonhost don't have daemonic servants because he is a host body and call upon them. The fact that they don,t live in the warp says nothing either; daemons are supposed to live in the warp, yet some have hosts and stays in the mortal world as long as they can, or are put into machines. In my theorie, if C'Tan are chaos gods, they have been offered an host that keep them in the mortal world more efficiently than a mortal body. They wouldn't have to live in the warp, since they could (and did) wreak havoc on the mortal world.

Their eating of souls is very much different to the Warp-related psychic shenanigans we see from others.

Alright. Where is it precised how a duke of change eats souls and how a C'Tan eat souls? This doesn't seem to be really precised, and a soul is a soul. It's a psychic imprint of some living creature, and they eat it.

If they were like Chaos Gods, the Necrons would destroy the Chaos Gods pretty handily, or chain them up or whatever.

Not sure I see the link... not because C'tan and chaos gods would be the same things or incarnations of said chaos gods that Necrons would instantly gain a magic way to destroy the warp gods.

And they did chain the C'Tan, like an Inquisitor could chain up a daemon host to stop it from doing bad things.

I must precise that my objective isn't of convincing you that C'Tan are chaos gods. Just that you actually put arguments that are either incomplete or not contradicting the premises of my theory.

The complete lack of Warp corruption surrounding them makes them not Chaos Gods. The fact that their artefacts work differently proves it too. Add on to the fact that they don't look Daemonic to psykers, and the Grey Knights haven't pointed that out either.

The fact that, during the War in Heaven, the Eye of Terror hadn't formed, the Enslavers hadn't turned up yet,and the Warp was less of a 'thing', means that, when the C'Tan were major players, the Chaos Gods weren't. They were formed by the consciousness of psy-active races. The C'Tan weren't - they were found eating stars.

The fact that Necron ships (their tech being stolen from the C'Tan) don't enter the Warp is another point against them being Warp creatures (as Chaos Gods are).

The C'Tan could be considered a 'just-as-evil-opposite' of the Chaos Gods (Order Gods?), but they aren't Chaos Gods. They don't see the Emperor as the Anathema (although they'll see him as a threat), you can't accidentally lose your soul to them with Marks of Chaos, possession or whatever.

They're an alien race, which is remarkably advanced. We're going down the Arthur C. Clarke route, where 'any technology sufficiently advanced enough can be considered magical'. The Eldar Gods were like this, to the point of being called deities. They too trapped souls (see: soulstones, Wraithguard), but weren't Chaos Gods. Even Khaine, remarkable similar to Khorne - is not a Chaos God. (This was considered different in WHFB)

Very little else contradicts your theory, but very little contradicts my theory that Marneus Calgar is dead and replaced by the Deceiver (I know, he's not.).

The fact that, during the War in Heaven, the Eye of Terror hadn't formed, the Enslavers hadn't turned up yet,and the Warp was less of a 'thing', means that, when the C'Tan were major players, the Chaos Gods weren't. They were formed by the consciousness of psy-active races. The C'Tan weren't - they were found eating stars.

These are not arguments useful to the discussion. The fact that what we actually know didn't exist then don't prove nothing.

The complete lack of Warp corruption surrounding them makes them not Chaos Gods. The fact that their artefacts work differently proves it too. Add on to the fact that they don't look Daemonic to psykers, and the Grey Knights haven't pointed that out either.

Sources, please. Because necron codex doesn't state any of this. It states that this is strange, this is an unknown phenomena, etc. etc.

As much as is often stated for warp creatures.

And there is no standard way for artefacts of the warp to work. The warp is unknowable.

Without sources, this can be interpreted in any sense.

The fact that Necron ships (their tech being stolen from the C'Tan) don't enter the Warp is another point against them being Warp creatures (as Chaos Gods are).

FOr what I know, Necrons use Dolmen Gates, which is a technology to breach the webway, which is a subdimension of the Warp.

They don't see the Emperor as the Anathema (although they'll see him as a threat), you can't accidentally lose your soul to them with Marks of Chaos, possession or whatever.

That's why there are C'tan maledictions, there was a case of C'Tan possession (the Deceiver investing the body of a planetary governor).

The fact that they don't use "marks of chaos" as is generally understood means nothing. Khorne doesn't use psykers and hates sorcery, while every other gods do. Khorne ain't a chaos god?

Very little else contradicts your theory, but very little contradicts my theory that Marneus Calgar is dead and replaced by the Deceiver (I know, he's not.).

Indeed. My objective is mainly to see what clearly contradicts it, because unless I get many clear signs, I consider this to be a grey zone I can use. I could always retcon stuff in my own games, but I do not like to get that far.