Indeed.

But the high cost of the starter kit is quite a deterring factor here, unless more players wish to divide the "weight" with the GM.

Erik Bauer said:

Dude, seriously. If the people at FFG were more into "moneymaking" they wouldn't be making boardgames and RPG's. It's not a very explosive market with huge profit potential, and it won't become one either in the forseeable future.

So please relize that it is a little ludicrous to claim that the directions taken with WHFRP is for "moneymaking purposes". If the gys and gals behind the games of FFG were actually out to make money first and foremost, they wouldn't waste their time creating games.

Sure, it's not a charity and you need to make sure that you have a roof over your head and food on the table, but chances are that if you're into making boardgames and RPG's you're doing it because you like them, not because you're interested in making the big buck, because if that's the case then you'd be delusional...

Varnias Tybalt said:

I am serious...

Yesterday evening I was talking about V3 with some of my players and as soon as I described them the content of the Dice Kit, showing them the amount of dies needed for resolving the action of an advanced character they told "... collectable anyone?".

Same thing when I described them the fact that Player's Kit are quite a must if you want to smoothly play with 7 players + GM.

So I'm not the only one to think this way about the new V3 incarnation. Maybe there is something I'm missing out there, but then please show it to me, because the V3 trend seems to be just that.

Erik Bauer said:

Well, I don't really care about your personal opinion on the matter, im just stating facts. The traditional gaming industry is not, I repeat NOT a booming industry where the people involved have a hope of making "the big buck". It never has been a booming industry and it's not gonna become one either. In fact it's just barely considered a "stable" market.

It's a niche market, and the thing about niche markets is that while they might have a more or less stable customer demographic, it rarely (if ever) grows any larger, making it effectively impossible to become filthy rich from.

So it doesn't matter if any product is made from a "collectible" standpoint or not, it's not gonna turn anyone into Rockefellers anytime soon. That's just the facts and not my personal opinion. If the guys and gals at FFG wanted to make the big break, then there are certainly better markets to latch onto. Even the porn industry is more expansive than the traditional gaming industry, and contrary to popular belief, the porn industry is actually not a big player on the stock exchange. (Hugh Hefner might seem like a rich old man, but the truth is his playboy brand couldn't even begin to compete with even the smaller automobile companies)

Also, the main kit and the Player's kit are supposed to be the "standard" merchandise for playing WHFRP 3rd ed. Meaning it's gonna be pretty mass produced. How exactly would that make it into a "collectible"?

I have a Rogue Trader: Collectors Edition over here that was only printed in 1000 copies. THAT*s a collectible. Mainly because it was printed in such limited numbers, and the second hand value of it will eventually rise after that. But how do you expect that the main merchandise would ever come close to that when it's being mass produced?

Sure if FFG had been a small time company run out of someones basement (like the first incarnation of Dungeons and Dragons used to be published back in the day), and have very limited resources to mass produce their first edition, then it might see a rise in second hand value. But mass produced merchandise will rarely (if ever) see a similar rise in value.

So im sorry, but I have to say that your argument that FFG are trying to turn WHFRP into a "collectible" just doesn't make any sense. A limited edition variant might have been just that, but the core rules in it's standard layout? Hardly...

Erik Bauer said:

Why is the dice pool representative of "collectible"? Have them read the diaries on combat and on how the dice pool works. There is nothing "collectible" about the dice pool. While more helps (so everyone has some to quickly roll), just like every game, the dice aren't "collectible".

Also, the Player's Kit is not a "must" to play with 7+. It helps, sure. So do expansions for other RPGs that have additional character sheets and new character careers/classes, etc. The Adventurer's Toolkit is just a "players" expansion. It doesn't make the game more "collectible" than any other RPG with expansions.

So, if your players see WFRP v2 as a collectible game, then it's possibly reasonable that they see v3 as collectible. Otherwise, they are greatly mistaken.

Personally, and I don't mean this as bad as it will probably come out so please don't take it personally (and this is entiremy my own opinion), I think the problem is that you aren't explaining v3 very well. Likely, since you have made it clear you don't have a very high opinion of the game, your personal opinion is coloring your attempts to explain the game. It can be hard for anyone to objectively describe something when they have an obvious bias. This occurs both ways, too, by the way. A negative stance will downplay the good elements and highlight the bad elements, while pro-bias will do the opposite.

As an example ... when you discussed "the amount of dice needed for resolving an action" how was it done and how many dice did you use for your example? A 'typical' roll will use:

4 characteristic or stance dice (3-5 typical)

1 skill die (we'll assume they are skilled)

0-4 fortune dice

1 challenge die (range is 0-4, but 1 seems typical)

0-4 misfortune dice

So, maybe 6-14 dice. Sure, it's more than other games. But remember, this single roll also includes damage and additional affects (boons/banes/comet/criticals), which are often separate subsequent rolls that get made in other systems. Just showing/saying the number of dice of course will sound negative, compared to other RPGs, when mentioned out of context like that. To understand why so many dice are rolled, you also need to explain boons, banes, comets, successes, challenges, etc. Explain how players and GMs can add fortune and misfortune dice to the pool, while roleplaying why the die is being added. Explain how additional boons can cause critical hits, or reduce recharge, etc. Explain how the dice pool works. Only once the reason and functionality of the dice pool are explained does the dice pool (and number of dice) make much more sense. Just telling people "You have to roll a dozen dice each time you want to do something", and leaving it at that, doesn't do anything but give a negative impression.

I tend to lisren to very little Chris Pramas has to say about WFRP. When the rights to the game were availiablr to purchase instead of doing the smart thing and makling a bid for them right away the procrastinated. First they had to ask the fanbase to see if they should etc.. I could understand that type of caution when it was your first time with WFRP and the economy yet they had worked on the game and knew how much it could and would sell. They acted like no one else was going to buy the intellectual properties and because of that lost them to FFG. What did he expect that Games Workshop was going to wait on hime before selling the rights. If someone is selling something who do you think the seller is going to listen to the guy wliiling to put money upfront for the product or the guy unsure about putting up any money. Chris Pramas is talented person yet when it came to how he and Green Ronin handled the whole affair imo they screwed up big time.

I totally see the rules move made with FFG buisness model. They sell quality componets. That's what they do. In a market of RPGs that are a dime a dozen, you have to be creative and different and FFG is playing to their strength, ie boardgame elements, not only makes them effective (because THAT's what they do) but it also makes something different out their in the marketplace.I'm not real keen on buying fiddly bits, I'm just not. Still, the game has some other elements which draw me to it.

But consider this

In DnD (either 3x or 4E) you buy books to gain new powers, so in Wahammer, you are going to buy componets for that. It's really not that different, just instead of all books, it's cards, and stuff.

As for the theme. I can tell you that not all DnD is the same. Ravenloft and Birthright bring a totally different feel to DnD than say forgotten realms. Ebberron is a totally different feel as well to generic DnD. Mechanics can lead to a settings feel. That's why 7th sea and L5R are basically the same system but used in 2 totally different ways to acheive a different "feel".

However, just saying "it's a boardgame" or "it's not percentiles" so it's not Warhammer isn't being fair. You have to play it, and evaulate it yourself. I played one session, and it's still not enough to say for sure. I can say that I felt that dark grittyness between the lethalness of combat, and the players treating the material as such.

superklaus said:

Just a note on designers.

Shane Hensely wouldn't be my first choice. Don't get me wrong, Shane is a great guy, Deadlands is brilliant, but savage worlds is so ordinary, and often over-rated.

I would choose Matt Forebeck, who not only worked on deadlands, and is a great game designer, but he also has experience with Games Workshop writing the novels and comic books for Blood Bowl.

Robin Laws has the ability to do some great work too.