Is 99 enough? Or isn't worth it to go lower? fvp usually comes in at and even 100, right?

whats the rest of the list, if it literally all hinges on Whisper being alive and you have 1-2 flex points 98 can not be understated.

There's also the movement aspect to take into consideration.

How often do you expect to see PS 9s ?

Any good Soontir list comes in at 98 points or less.

There are SOME players that built F-V-P lists to 100, but it's generally rare. I suppose there's an argument to be said for Vader being enough for Fel's competition, but I don't personally agree.

My Soontir/OL/Palpy list comes it at 97.

Go 98 or go home. If you don't shoot first you're only going to win against beginners and people who are stoned.

Go 98 or go home. If you don't shoot first you're only going to win against beginners and people who are stoned.

Good point. Are you playing in Colorado?

Go 98 or go home. If you don't shoot first you're only going to win against beginners and people who are stoned.

That's really only true against PS9 turrets (Han), and/or multiple PS9 ships that you are incapable of arc dodging every round. So, say, Soontir + Vader (or Whisper) with a bid, that choose to take initiative, will DEFINITELY give you a hard time, as both ships will shoot at Whisper uncloaked, and though you might be able to arc dodge one, getting out of the way of 2 is very difficult. One PS9 Ace could also be set up to block Whisper by boosting or rolling to set up a shot for the other ace.

However, if you ever get in a 1v1 end game situation where it is Soontir vs Whisper, and Soontir had chosen to shoot first, Whisper is definitely in a better position to arc dodge with barrel rolls and fancy flying. Where as, if Soontir gave Whisper initiative, Soontir can easily boost and barrel roll and out position.

To be honest, the way you choose to take or give initiative with Whisper largely influences how YOU play Whisper in the CURRENT match. I've played a lot of games with her recently in 100 pt lists, and even when I get to choose, it is never clear cut, and is largely determined by how I want to win that match.

100 points.

Han is an endangered species and the init bid was mostly for that matchup.

Nowadays the matchups are Poe, Vader, and Soontir. Init bids won't help at all against Poes, so you might as well take Intelligence agent and max your list.

Against PS9 Vader/Soontir, initiative doesn't matter as much with intel agent. If they give you init, then you can block the living daylight out of them. If they take init, then Soontir will always be in arc.

You want to be firing first, this means you want to guarantee the initiative. Go to 97 points to beat the jokers who go to 98.

Acewing games, especially ones with named Phantoms depend almost entirely upon getting the side of the initiative coin that is most favorable to you. Securing the initiative is of utmost importance and it astonishes me no one ever bids below 97-98.

Phantoms cannot arc dodge anymore with a reactive decloak at PS9. It's not too hard to guess the actual maneuver they're doing since you see where they decloak at essentially PS 0. There is a huge advantage to firing first though, not dying.

It is also possible to build Whisper in a manner that makes her less sensitive to Initiative. For example, Juke, ACD, Sensor Jammer, Kallus. Take an evade every time, use your Kallus mini-focus for accuracy, make them choose whether to use focus on offense or defense. With evade and jammer, she is fairly tough even at 2 Agl, and ships who spend their actions dodging her arc struggle to deal damage without focus.

Bottom line, it really depends on your list and particular Whisper build. If you absolutely must have Initiative for the lynch pin of your list to function, build to 96. If you build to 97 or 98 you will win initiative against lists that don't care but find yourself dicing off against the very lists you are most afraid of losing initiative to. If you build to 100, make sure your list is not sensitive to initiative in any way.

Juke, ACD, SJ, Kallus is an interesting build. So expensive though

Well yeah you can build Whisper like that if you want a suboptimal build of Whisper.

44 point Buzzsaw is the only way to go.

Juke, ACD, SJ, Kallus is an interesting build. So expensive though

Also, keep in mind that buzz saw Whisper has a "real" cost of 47 or 48 points because she absolutely requires a large initiative bid.

So, right back to what I was saying earlier. What do you have flying with her? If it's Soontir, go with Juke. If it isn't a ship that relies on moving last, go with VI.

Well yeah you can build Whisper like that if you want a suboptimal build of Whisper.

44 point Buzzsaw is the only way to go.

I found Kallus Whisper to be pretty strong for her price - especially when she allows you to pretty much ignore single TLTs.

I've just been running him with oicunn at 100. Any ps9 opponent will give you initiative so you move first and shoot first. Which is what you'd want for your whisper anyways. The only time you will really need initiative is verse a ps9 turret (Han Solo). I haven't seen a Han in my meta since tlt came out.

Go 98 or go home. If you don't shoot first you're only going to win against beginners and people who are stoned.

That's really only true against PS9 turrets (Han), and/or multiple PS9 ships that you are incapable of arc dodging every round. So, say, Soontir + Vader (or Whisper) with a bid, that choose to take initiative, will DEFINITELY give you a hard time, as both ships will shoot at Whisper uncloaked, and though you might be able to arc dodge one, getting out of the way of 2 is very difficult. One PS9 Ace could also be set up to block Whisper by boosting or rolling to set up a shot for the other ace.

However, if you ever get in a 1v1 end game situation where it is Soontir vs Whisper, and Soontir had chosen to shoot first, Whisper is definitely in a better position to arc dodge with barrel rolls and fancy flying. Where as, if Soontir gave Whisper initiative, Soontir can easily boost and barrel roll and out position.

To be honest, the way you choose to take or give initiative with Whisper largely influences how YOU play Whisper in the CURRENT match. I've played a lot of games with her recently in 100 pt lists, and even when I get to choose, it is never clear cut, and is largely determined by how I want to win that match.

Also, I must add, I've been running Whisper aongside something with Palpatine recently, so the need for an initiative bid is minimal, as Whisper is either getting auto 2 evades (Palp + Evade token) when attacked at 2 agility from other PS9 ships (also arc dodging those ships sometimes), or is defending with 4 Agility against other PS9 ships.

I'm still on the boat that VI is the go-to, though. Playing Whisper without VI is like playing Echo without as much mobility to get unanswerable positions. Whisper can do it, but it leaves you very open to being arc dodged from a wiley PS8+ Ace.

Kallus Whisper though, that stuff is money.

Any good Soontir list comes in at 98 points or less.

There are SOME players that built F-V-P lists to 100, but it's generally rare. I suppose there's an argument to be said for Vader being enough for Fel's competition, but I don't personally agree.

My Soontir/OL/Palpy list comes it at 97.

Funny thing is that NOW whisper wants to move AND shoot first, so you basically don't need that bid anyway except for games against PS9 PWT

PS9 and Initiative Bid? People still talk about PS9 like it's an important thing. I feel like it's way less relevant than it used to be. PS10 Poe and PS11 Vader be all over the place. Sometimes RAC and Boba at PS10, too. I guess the jump from 7 to 9 is important against Miranda and Soontir...end of list?

At this point I feel like Kath, Bossk, Whisper, and Xizor have better things to do than try to hit PS9 and then still be out-aced by the relevant players. I feel like in the new meta, VI is for hitting PS10 and up.

Funny thing is that NOW whisper wants to move AND shoot first, so you basically don't need that bid anyway except for games against PS9 PWT

PS9 and Initiative Bid? People still talk about PS9 like it's an important thing. I feel like it's way less relevant than it used to be. PS10 Poe and PS11 Vader be all over the place. Sometimes RAC and Boba at PS10, too. I guess the jump from 7 to 9 is important against Miranda and Soontir...end of list?

At this point I feel like Kath, Bossk, Whisper, and Xizor have better things to do than try to hit PS9 and then still be out-aced by the relevant players. I feel like in the new meta, VI is for hitting PS10 and up.

Glad I'm not the only one that thinks that lol.

Again, if we're talking about Whisper, the init bid was to compete with Han. Now that Han isn't nearly as popular, whether or not you get initiative with Whisper shouldn't be that big of a deal - especially if you have Intel Agent.

PS9 init bids still matter if you're flying Soontir and/or Vader, but for Whisper I've been flying at 100 pts for a while now.

If you're going to go, go big -- take the 13-point initiative bid and run Whisper + Echo at 87.

Go 98 or go home. If you don't shoot first you're only going to win against beginners and people who are stoned.

That's really only true against PS9 turrets (Han), and/or multiple PS9 ships that you are incapable of arc dodging every round. So, say, Soontir + Vader (or Whisper) with a bid, that choose to take initiative, will DEFINITELY give you a hard time, as both ships will shoot at Whisper uncloaked, and though you might be able to arc dodge one, getting out of the way of 2 is very difficult. One PS9 Ace could also be set up to block Whisper by boosting or rolling to set up a shot for the other ace.

However, if you ever get in a 1v1 end game situation where it is Soontir vs Whisper, and Soontir had chosen to shoot first, Whisper is definitely in a better position to arc dodge with barrel rolls and fancy flying. Where as, if Soontir gave Whisper initiative, Soontir can easily boost and barrel roll and out position.

To be honest, the way you choose to take or give initiative with Whisper largely influences how YOU play Whisper in the CURRENT match. I've played a lot of games with her recently in 100 pt lists, and even when I get to choose, it is never clear cut, and is largely determined by how I want to win that match.

@phil: far too thoughtful "colorful/grey", when some people are clearly in the "black and white" business ;-)

@hondo: I say go 77 or go home. better yet 71, to be safe.. else, stay home

sorry, couldn't restrain myself. I'm not in the trolling-business, please don't feel offended by some banter

After playing a Wampa, Palp, Whisper, Backstabber list that lost initiative to other PS9 Aces....it's really not super important and sometimes it's better or at least ok to lose initiative. If you put IA on your Whisper...which if you aren't...why the hell are you playing a Phantom...you can constantly block people with barrel rolling Ties or Whisper himself. Hell, with IA you can sometimes block people that move before you too with your decloak...it's absurdly powerful and only gets more powerful as ships start to die.

You don't run Intelligence Agent on a Phantom because the buzzsaw loadout is many times better.

With Whisper, Gunner and FCS are not only offensive upgrades but defensive ones. They guarantee that you hit with an attack so that Whisper's ability triggers. So when you pay for Gunner you're also getting Recon Specialist.

If you're going to go, go big -- take the 13-point initiative bid and run Whisper + Echo at 87.

No one is trying to say Intelligence Agent is more potent than Gunner.

What I am saying is that IA helps you ignore the initiative bid and allows you to spend more points elsewhere (almost like a negative points cost).

Gunner costs 4 points more and doesn't help you overcome a Soontir that moves after you.

If you're going to go, go big -- take the 13-point initiative bid and run Whisper + Echo at 87.

If you want to have some Echo fun, there's a PS12 tie fighter and Decoy EPT

have fun

re-cloaking at PS12!