People think Missiles and Torpedoes are crippled by the Discard Mechanic. They are not!

Again my proof for the argument is the 2x Proton torpedoes attacks against 2 HLC with target lock attacks.

HLC wins in this scenario even if you changed it to Proton Torpedoes + EM. (add MF to it and you essentially got near the same attack consistency as HLC for the same point cost.)

It is not the discard mechanic, it is the target lock mechanic that cripples missiles and torpedoes.

If thats the case why dont we see more deadeye builds and use of the munitions that don't spend the tokens/lock?

Deadeye: because if you're using that you're not using a better EPT to deal damage with your other options, and two of the four major ordnance carriers can't get EPTs anyway - the Punisher and the K-Wing, and the ones that can, often have better things to do with them anyway. Bombers would be about the only place I might see using it.

Ones that don't spend locks: (Thread tracers: not out yet, I think we will see them when they are), Advanced Homing MIssiles - very sharply limited range band, but a good effect. Probably don't see much use because of that range band, and because most of the carriers of them can do better with a primary shot or a different missile. Ion Pulse Missiles: piddling damage, good effect. I've used them on Punisher builds in the past, but it's always a toss-up between two low-damage utility options and one high-damage slightly less useful thing - IPM and Flechette or Ion Torp/Assault, for instance. Prockets: A-Wings mount them, but it costs them 2 extra points. Defenders could, but they're already expensive and come Imp Vets will basically never want to use Missiles, because they either lose them, or get a free cannon shot if they use their primary. Advanceds could, and maybe should, but in most builds I can find better uses for the points on other ships. I've seen Outriders use them to guard the donut hole a bit, which isn't a bad use although they didn't get fired in those matches. And Scyks... well, nobody flies them anyway, and if they did, putting missiles on them would often be a waste of points.

I think the real issue with most of them is that their effects don't justify their costs for a single shot. This might well change with Chimps; I think we'll start to see alpha-striking A- and Z-Swarms with Prockets and Clusters, and alpha-striking X-Swarms with some sort of torps - particularly with the Zs, they don't really use their mod slot at all, and being able to potentially through 5 or 6 cluster missiles downrange with some mods will be p. scary.

unlimited ammo for 0 points;

I bet it would kill the Star Wars Universe

or maybe even a new More Munitions card that is -2pts. Same as extra munitions but it takes up two torpedo slots so other ships with just one torpedo like T-70 cant use it.

You know the T-70 already can't really use Extra Munitions right? Because if you put extra munitions in it's torpedo slot, it has no other slots to, you know, put actual munitions in.

I've never found myself running out of ordnance on a Punisher. By the time I've fired off four shots (missiles + torpedoes + EM), I've either effectively won or the Punisher isn't going to survive the next turn anyway. But I'm looking forwards to Guidance Chips no end!

@Warpman: I don't think so ^^ ... I think its in between the X-Wing fix and the Tie Advanced fix.

I handicrafted this little card by almost completely reusing FFG artworks and texts, because an upgrade card says more then 1000 words:

In this approach I focused on Missiles and Torpedo upgrades to prevent possible shinanigens with mines.

I've never found myself running out of ordnance on a Punisher. By the time I've fired off four shots (missiles + torpedoes + EM), I've either effectively won or the Punisher isn't going to survive the next turn anyway. But I'm looking forwards to Guidance Chips no end!

In the worst case you would save 2 points for EM, in the best case you would fire more then 2 times using the same upgrade card.

Deadeye: because if you're using that you're not using a better EPT to deal damage with your other options, and two of the four major ordnance carriers can't get EPTs anyway - the Punisher and the K-Wing, and the ones that can, often have better things to do with them anyway. Bombers would be about the only place I might see using it.

This.

Furthermore, if you use Deadeye, yes, you do not need to spent a TL, thus can fire right away, neither telegraphibg your target. Sounds Ok so far, BUT you spend the focus to fire, so you use your highly point costing ordnance without any dice modifiers (apart from special cases like concussion), very risky as you can completely dud your shot, there go your points achieving nothing.

People think Missiles and Torpedoes are crippled by the Discard Mechanic. They are not!

Again my proof for the argument is the 2x Proton torpedoes attacks against 2 HLC with target lock attacks.

HLC wins in this scenario even if you changed it to Proton Torpedoes + EM. (add MF to it and you essentially got near the same attack consistency as HLC for the same point cost.)

It is not the discard mechanic, it is the target lock mechanic that cripples missiles and torpedoes.

If thats the case why dont we see more deadeye builds and use of the munitions that don't spend the tokens/lock?

Because the EPT slot is better filled with things like VI or PTL which would work for the entire game. Deadeye only works when you have torpedoes and missiles so it inherits the discard mechanics.

Now some may point out to crackshot as an EPT with a discard mechanic and I point out that crackshot is a powerful card that when discarded can ensure a ship is removed from the game. Because of the timing Crackshot basically kills a ship when it is discarded. Torpedoes and missiles discard at the start of the attack and since you have to first roll a hit and not have it get canceled by green dice it doesn't guarantee a kill when it is discarded. As for MF well if you need to get 2 hits and only got 1 you already discarded the upgrade. With crackshot if you need 2 hits and your opponent rolls 2 evades you can save crackshot for later.

Deadeye: because if you're using that you're not using a better EPT to deal damage with your other options, and two of the four major ordnance carriers can't get EPTs anyway - the Punisher and the K-Wing, and the ones that can, often have better things to do with them anyway. Bombers would be about the only place I might see using it.

This.

Furthermore, if you use Deadeye, yes, you do not need to spent a TL, thus can fire right away, neither telegraphibg your target. Sounds Ok so far, BUT you spend the focus to fire, so you use your highly point costing ordnance without any dice modifiers (apart from special cases like concussion), very risky as you can completely dud your shot, there go your points achieving nothing.

I have a Nera build and a Boba Fett build with Deadeye. Works great in the little I have used it. Combine it with Recon Specialist and you can fire and modify.

Nera - 39pts

Deadeye + EM + Adv Proton Torp + Bwing/E2 + Recon Specialist

She is basically flying death dealer at range 1 (getting to range 1 is another story, you can add an ion cannon for another 3pts). 360 degrees to fire 5 attack die at anyone. And with recon giving you two focuses, and APT letting you change 3 blanks to eyeballs, you essentially get 5 hits everytime (unless you roll 4 or more blanks). I took out an Awing in one shot - that was sweet

Boba Fett - 56pts

Deadeye + Cluster Missiles + Slave1 + EM + HLC + Recon Specialist

I just tried this out the other day. Range 1 you fire off those cluster missiles, range 2-3 HLC. With your two focuses, you can modify HLC, and still have one for defense. Boba Fett did some nasty damage at all ranges. Practically took out a bwing and t-70 by himself. Flew him with Carnor Jax and a TIE fighter. Jax got blocked and died early, so Boba did all the heavy lifting.

Guidance Chips will be awesome with Boba, changing any die to a crit. Will be doing my happy dance when firing cluster missiles

RecSpec plus deadeye is an argument, certainly, but there are a grand total of like... 6 ships that can use it? B Wing, Firespray, K-Wing, plus the rebel pancakes with missiles, and the Punishing One soon. And again, with most of those there are much better options for both EPT and crew.

Ok... the problem with the Punisher isn't running out of ordinance. I recently went up against a couple punishers in competitive play. Neither game did the punisher get two missiles/torpedoes launched. It is the same problem Nera has. Once you put a secondary weapon on it, it is a really quick to kill, very expensive ship. Compared to something like a TLT Y-Wing, which is similarly easy to kill, you are taking too many points off the board.

Deadeye: because if you're using that you're not using a better EPT to deal damage with your other options, and two of the four major ordnance carriers can't get EPTs anyway - the Punisher and the K-Wing, and the ones that can, often have better things to do with them anyway. Bombers would be about the only place I might see using it.

This.

Furthermore, if you use Deadeye, yes, you do not need to spent a TL, thus can fire right away, neither telegraphibg your target. Sounds Ok so far, BUT you spend the focus to fire, so you use your highly point costing ordnance without any dice modifiers (apart from special cases like concussion), very risky as you can completely dud your shot, there go your points achieving nothing.

I have a Nera build and a Boba Fett build with Deadeye. Works great in the little I have used it. Combine it with Recon Specialist and you can fire and modify.

Nera - 39pts

Deadeye + EM + Adv Proton Torp + Bwing/E2 + Recon Specialist

She is basically flying death dealer at range 1 (getting to range 1 is another story, you can add an ion cannon for another 3pts). 360 degrees to fire 5 attack die at anyone. And with recon giving you two focuses, and APT letting you change 3 blanks to eyeballs, you essentially get 5 hits everytime (unless you roll 4 or more blanks). I took out an Awing in one shot - that was sweet

...

If the Cluster Furballs post Wave 4 ever become a thing again this would be a very strong ship with advanced sensors. The only problem is she would become so expensive it would be an "all your eggs in a single basket" thing taking up most of the points in your list and making Nera the top priority for opposing ships.

As for me I tried Nera with regular Proton Torpedoes and Jan Ors. It tends to work very well at times but the torps can still miss even with the free focus to crit modification. Nera with ion torpedoes can make for a good control list. I was able to zap Whisper (before the cloak nerf) by hitting Oicunn with an Ion torpedo when Whisper flew too close. It was another trick shot.

Nera is really the best pilot with torpedoes, it is a shame that torpdeos are jsut so awful that you really have so many better options for the points you spend just to build up nera.

Guidance Chimps is going to Nera this crazy little mini Dash. Its gonna be AWESOME.

Also, really TheRealStarkiller... you shouldn't make the heavy bomber card equipable to K-wings. Sorry. Yes I know you want it for fluff. But listen to us that the Kwing is powerful enough already and that it also has more of a Turret concept currently.

If your card also said that it removes the turret upgrade slot, id be okay with. And even then the K with a PWT is still getting a good deal.

Guidance Chimps is going to Nera this crazy little mini Dash. Its gonna be AWESOME.

Also, really TheRealStarkiller... you shouldn't make the heavy bomber card equipable to K-wings. Sorry. Yes I know you want it for fluff. But listen to us that the Kwing is powerful enough already and that it also has more of a Turret concept currently.

If your card also said that it removes the turret upgrade slot, id be okay with. And even then the K with a PWT is still getting a good deal.

I see this the other way around. Right now there is no reason to not take TLT on the K-Wings because there is no cost efficient alternative. With this title card however, ppl would be encouraged to slap one or two munitions on and fly them as a Heavy Bomber and not as a gun platform. And it still would be an either or scenario - if you equip both, TLT and munitions you would just put all eggs in one basket.

Its like a freind of mine who just started with X-Wing recently thought it was a good idea to play with Major Rhymer with PTL, APT, Assault Missiles and Proton Torpedos (thats 44 points). He got the Assault Missiles off, thats all. He bought 2 Bombers because he liked the models and when we played X-Wing for the first time he was surprised that you can use munitions once only. So he just used Major Rhymer in the second game and gave him a lot of stuff to fire. He is of that kind of ppl who don't accept what others say until he made his own experience. So I teach him by beating him. Meanwhile he's a fairly good Tie Interceptor player.