The Tie Punisher and the K-Wing are both Super-Heavy Bombers, flying arsenals - as you can see by only looking at the models.

While the K-Wings don't 'need' help to get onto the table, because of TLT, they are commonly not used as a bomber.

Inspired by the card that comes with the Raider:

How about if Tie Punishers and K-Wings would never need to discard ordnance upgrade cards for 0 points?

I think this would be fluffy in terms of representing the vast ammo capacity of both Tie Punishers and K-Wings,

while having a reason to get common Tie Punisher pilots on the table. While K-Wings are not sole TLT/Tactician platforms any longer but also missile and torpedo platforms.

The same would go for any Scum Heavy Bomber, FFG would come up ... and this role could go to the Skipray Blastboat ... at least in EaW:FoC the Zann Blastboats had the role of a massive (or super heavy) torpedo bomber.

So, what do you think about if FFG would give the Super Heavy Bombers unlimited ammo for 0 points; maybe delivered in a possible box of a Skipray Blastboat expansion pack?

Compare a K-Wing with Homing Missiles and infinite ammo for a total of 28 points, versus an HLC B-Wing for 29 points. Both have 4 attack dice with secondary weapons (denying range defense bonuses) and dice modification at ranges 2-3, but the K-Wing has an extra hit point and a 2-dice turret back-up weapon. The K-Wing also has arguably better mobility with SLAM. I think the comparison looks pretty favorable for the K-Wing. Tack a Seismic Charge on there as well and the K-Wing gets even better.

They should have done it in the punisher release. But it's too late now.

And K wing still has turret. Don't think it needs it. Although it should be a heavy bomber. I think it gets more multi role with the turret primary and turret secondary.

Unfortunately the reduction of 2 points from removing extra munitions would have made the punisher competitive IMO.

Redline

Missile

Fcs

Preferably Carnor vi auto

Tie shuttle with Mara jade

Fo

Two really good blockers. Carnor to clean up and provide aoe support. And redline to chunk things.

I think that would be too powerful. People would just be dropping mines and bombs every turn all over the place. Having a limited supply makes you have to calculate precisely where and when to drop bombs mines, or when to shoot those missiles. I would prefer if extra munitions was 0pts, or maybe even a new More Munitions card that is -2pts. Same as extra munitions but it takes up two torpedo slots so other ships with just one torpedo like T-70 cant use it. That way, you get two ion or seismic bombs of your choice for free, or just reduce your build by 2pts. This could get these ships more play time.

I have enough trouble as it is getting off all my Plasma Torpedoes and Cluster Missiles with extra munitions.

Only paying a 1pt premium for each ordnance currently.

Guidance Chips is going to make the Punisher an absolute god soon anyway. I'd take it over Ordnance Tubes any day.

I have enough trouble as it is getting off all my Plasma Torpedoes and Cluster Missiles with extra munitions.

Only paying a 1pt premium for each ordnance currently.

Guidance Chips is going to make the Punisher an absolute god soon anyway. I'd take it over Ordnance Tubes any day.

Those 2 points matter.

It shouldn't be a modification, obviously, because you want to have Long Range Scanners or Guidance Chips, of course.

Redline with unlimited cluster missles???? SIGN ME UP

I think that would be too powerful. People would just be dropping mines and bombs every turn all over the place. Having a limited supply makes you have to calculate precisely where and when to drop bombs mines, or when to shoot those missiles. I would prefer if extra munitions was 0pts, or maybe even a new More Munitions card that is -2pts. Same as extra munitions but it takes up two torpedo slots so other ships with just one torpedo like T-70 cant use it. That way, you get two ion or seismic bombs of your choice for free, or just reduce your build by 2pts. This could get these ships more play time.

Actually you can litter the board with Proxy templates right now if you want to, by having 2 mines and Extra Munitions - thats 4 proxy on the map - anybody did it?

But I see this could be an issue. Possibly reduce the infinite ammo to missiles and torps then, just like on the Ordnance Tubes text.

Ah I thought you were saying that Extra Munitions wasn't enough in terms of ordnance supply.

I suppose. I guess you're suggesting that Extra Munitions should be free rather than Ordnance Tubes being available to Punishers since it takes up the modification slot.

O points?

For such a powerful upgrade it should be at least 10 points.

Not that it's ever going to bappen.

Guidance Chips make ordnance very potent, and a fully loaded missile boat is unlikely to run out before it dies in a 100pt match. And if it does, it's pulled some serious weight.

Ah I thought you were saying that Extra Munitions wasn't enough in terms of ordnance supply.

I suppose. I guess you're suggesting that Extra Munitions should be free rather than Ordnance Tubes being available to Punishers since it takes up the modification slot.

Yes ... technically Extra Munitions for free is almost the same solution.

I would like to see the Super Heavy Bombers to have their own role in the game - and not only the named pilots.

And it shouldn't be a modification. A title maybe.

O points?

For such a powerful upgrade it should be at least 10 points.

Not that it's ever going to bappen.

Not sure about 10 points, but definitely not free. I created a similar title card for my custom chiss clawcraft expansion in the reddit custom ship contest, but I gave it the downside of losing access to your primary weapon (basically like the outrider title but for ordnance). In that case, it made it so you had a limited range (no useful missle or torpedo has range 1-3 so you have a bubble somewhere) and if you bump, overfly an asteroid, have too much stress, wahtever, you lose the ability to attack entirely. The bubble in the case of punishers would be mitigated by the fact that you could have multiple ordnance to cover all ranges. FCS could also help mitigate the action denial. Both of which make it a lot more poewrful on a ship like the punisher than on my clawcraft.

While not as a universal upgrade I've long supported some kind of unlimited ordnance option.

I believe it would need to a be a NEW missile/torp/bomb type and in practice would run a lot like a cannon or turret does now.

Unlimited ammo of all types for zero points is a bit too scary if you ask me.

People think Missiles and Torpedoes are crippled by the Discard Mechanic. They are not!

Again my proof for the argument is the 2x Proton torpedoes attacks against 2 HLC with target lock attacks.

HLC wins in this scenario even if you changed it to Proton Torpedoes + EM. (add MF to it and you essentially got near the same attack consistency as HLC for the same point cost.)

It is not the discard mechanic, it is the target lock mechanic that cripples missiles and torpedoes.

Eh, functionally most ordnance is made unlimite by Extra Munitions. If you're firing EM ordnance dry before you die, you've probably won anyway.

The TIE Punisher should have a title that grants it the same ability as extra munitions for 0 points. You get double the munitions for free, and if you need more than that you can still slap on extra munitions.

The Missile Boat should come with unlimited missiles though.

In theory infinite ammo is cool, but In most of the games I play my Punisher, either his ammo lasts about as long as his hull does, or he kills everything there is before running dry. So it's not really necessary.

Still. I'd be less conservative with my shots. I usually need 3 missiles. So that would also save me 4 more points. For every shot being 4 dice. That's a lot more terrifying. And cheap cutlass squadrons and black eights would be amazing.

I bet the math supports this too.

Also unlimited seismics? Cooool

I like the idea of this. But instead of it being one of those "autoinclude" cards, it should give something in exchange of taking something else.

Because we don't want to abuse the bomb spamming too much, but to reduce it to torpedoes and missiles for Redline, I would go with something like:

Warhead Loadout

(Bomb)

Cost 1

Place 1 Munitions token over each (torpedo) or (missile) upgrade card equipped to you.

For the same price of Extra Munitions, you could equip two Warhead Loadouts, and have two Munitions tokens on each of your torpedoes and missiles.

It's not unusual that people equip Redline with Extra Munitions and 2 copies of Cluster Missiles to have 4 shots. That load costs 2+4+4=10 points in ordnance alone.

With Warhead Loadout, you could save points by equipping, for example, Extra Munitions + 2xWarhead Loadout + Cluster Missiles. For a total of 4 shots for 8 points.

Or bring a couple of utility torpedoes for the generics (ion torpedoes, flechette torpedoes) and still be able to have some munitions tokens even when there is not room for Extra Munitions.

This also makes it easier to include in a non TIE Punisher/K-Wing specific release.

Still. I'd be less conservative with my shots. I usually need 3 missiles. So that would also save me 4 more points. For every shot being 4 dice. That's a lot more terrifying. And cheap cutlass squadrons and black eights would be amazing.

I bet the math supports this too.

Also unlimited seismics? Cooool

Yes I think the Punisher needs more edge.

Like Major Juggler said in the last Nova Squadron Podcast, the only reason why to take a Cutlass over a Scimitar is the System Upgrade slot for the FCS - and now you pay 7 points for the FCS, because the Cutlass is 5 points more expensive. And thats exactly what I think about this.

You are going to need more benefit out of the Punisher, especially after the Imperial Veterans - since why shouldn't I just take Tie Bombers now instead.

For example you could go like this:

Cutlass 21

("Super Heavy Bomber" Infinite Ammo Title 0)

Clusters 4

FCS 2

Guidance Chip 0

= 27 points

I think this would be a solid 27 points while far from overpowered.

You could even have 2 of them on the table and a good fighter escord.

To actually see a Tie Punisher on the table, now that would be great.

Cutlass 21

("Super Heavy Bomber" Infinite Ammo Title 0)

Plasma Torps 3

FCS 2

Guidance Chip 0

= 26 points

Two of those and 4 Tie Fighters for a solid block. Thats what I would like to play.