What do you think? Will this make the expansion not suck? Do you think allowing people to draw two encounters at cult locations over-incentivizes it? Or will the various benefits and detriments make for good clean dirty intergalactic evil fun.

direct link: http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt307/avi_dreader/Theblackgoatofthewoods.jpg

Mmmm... The reason I said Dark Young are unaffected by the monster limit instead of just making them Spawn monsters is because I want them to be removable by the closing of gates (on the other hand, maybe I should change that because of Norman Withers). Errr.... Yeah... That's going to be changed. Tomorrow probably— errr, in less than 24 hours I mean. In other words, don't print this out yet.

I think I should also make it so Shub eats two monster trophies per failed check instead of one. Two or one? State your opinions. I think raising the monster limit and making it so two monsters spawn from early gates instead of one is going to make there be more trophies anyways, so... I don't want to actually make her weaker (of course, forcing everyone to fight off a wave of Dark Young each round of combat is probably enough). Opinions?

Cult Incentive: Problem is, even with what little we've seen of the Cult Encounter Deck, nobody I know is impressed. And now, nobody is going to damage themselves or waste precious trophies joining it, even if you make it easier. It's not really a bonus Encounter if you suspect it's always going to suck. The only way I think a Cult Card is going to work is if it operates like a Curse: you ARE a member until you can get rid of it somehow.

Monster Limit: That should work. No lowered limit on the Outskirts?

Dark Young: Mobile and constantly moving, but all 7 in with the rest of the Cup. By cutting down on the odds of getting one on the board makes this mechanic a bit less common and thus a real motivator when it does come up. Dark Young in Dunwich or Innsmouth comes with a very short timer .

Gates: Works with the new Monster Limit.

Corruption: This is the only part of the official Black Goat that I like. What if you have to draw a second Corruption if you defeat a Dark Young? (Or maybe pull off all Green ones so that that second one is Red, then place the Green ones back on top?)

Shub: Eh, I dunno. Extra combat during a Final Battle (especially with weapons that require refreshing)? And against one of the Physically Immune AOs? I suppose you might have something there, but my gut reaction is that you're making the Final Battle too busy. (Do I get to keep these phantom Dark Young as trophies?) I think raising Shub's appetite to two trophies might be more than enough. Or maybe take a page from the Crawling Chaos, and make everyone lose a monster trophy before they make the Sneak Check to find out if they lose ANOTHER one.

jgt7771 said:

Somebody forgot that Shub makes DYs Endless I think . Of course, if you have Johnny Legs/Petrifying Solution...

jgt7771 said:

Hrm... I happen to disagree about the usefulness of the cult deck... If anything I'm worried that even with the price to join it, there's too much incentive to use it. Buuut... Perhaps I should just make the price 2 stamina and 1 sanity. (That'd save a bit of card text too). Think that'd work better. The other alternative is to go with your idea of making them mandatory. Any investigator who has an encounter at The Woods, Black Cave, or Unvisited Island must pay 2 stam, or 1 stam 1 san and join the cult. That way you'd have at least one cult member per game. I could go with that ;') Anyone else have an opinion on this issue? I think I better review what is actually *in* the cult deck before making up my mind... Hmmm... how about mandatory initiation, and a choice of spending two stamina or three toughness worth of monsters? You do realize that there are 24 cards, and one of them lets you search the spell deck, and another lets you remove a doom token? Then again, I suppose the fact that you'd get swarmed with corruption to farm for them will provide enough incentives against card hunters (unless they are Ursula, Darren, or have The Dragon's Eye). Hmmm... And I suppose they'd also have to deal with normal encounters at those locations (i.e. they can't just sit there safely while going through the deck at leisure)... Okay, I'm sold :'D (I still think you're wrong about their usefulness though— you'll see, once it isn't such a rarity).

Dam already covered me in explaining why Dark Young with Shub ;'D I'd be worried about the endless trophy gathering ally, but since Dark Young have nightmarish, there is a time limit even there— and of course, he'd only benefit one investigator. Weapons would not refresh. It's not a new round of combat. Do you really think it's that big an issue? Everyone just rolls a quick horror check and combat checks. If anything it might make final combat shorter (especially if a team is somewhat unprepared) because the Dark Youngs will quickly pick off ill-equipped investigators (having to pass horror checks against them will also require investigators to their will— so...) I'm going to leave that as it is. I think it's enough to make Shub a real monster, and I think you're underestimating how quickly investigators will fall to them in final combat unless they deliberately their will to fight them— which still leaves them with the problem of being destroyed by Shub, nightmarish, or accidental hits taken while trying to evade— I don't think most investigators will survive more than four rounds of combat, but maybe I'm being optimistic. Just use a Dark Young trophy as a reference for the entire team as to what it does, and if you don't want to search for Dark Young every turn (assuming you can capture them, unlikely) just give the player that can collect endless monsters proxy monsters (i.e. leave the Dark Young marker out, just give him random monsters instead— it makes no difference in terms of scoring or Shub food).

The idea behind the Shub's final battle was to make it an exciting challenge for a team of 2 or 3 (instead of moderately difficult, but really not very hard if they stock a decent amount of trophies), and *very* unpleasant for larger teams :') lets face it, larger teams shouldn't be winning final battles anyways ;') they have no excuse for not winning by sealing. But as I said before, this herald was intended to be used with anyone— although I think it'd be especially fun with extra tough monsters and Dark Young running around the streets.

Re: corruption. 2 corruption for Dark Young. Hmmm... I like it :')

"Dark Young: Mobile and constantly moving, but all 7 in with the rest of the Cup. By cutting down on the odds of getting one on the board makes this mechanic a bit less common and thus a real motivator when it does come up. Dark Young in Dunwich or Innsmouth comes with a very short timer ." What do you mean by this? Particularly, "By cutting down on the odds of getting one on the board makes this mechanic a bit less common." The intention of the card is that they'd appear even if you had already reached the monster limits (so instead of them going to the outskirts, they'll go wherever they were supposed to go). I can see I might need to do a little bit of editing and rules changing on this tonight... Also, drawing one of them is more likely due to increased monster limits and the higher number of surges that will result from better guarded gates.

I don't think lowering the outskirts limit is necessary. Monsters there are going to be enough of a problem as it is, (since players are going to be busier dealing with the extra monsters, and the double monsters may make it take longer for investigators to get to some gates, there are likely to be more monster surges— it'll work out just fine).

So to sum up my proposed rules changes (as of now):

One must join the cult when at a cult location, by paying two stamina or three toughness of monster trophies.

Dark Young does not count against the monster limit or go to the Outskirts. An investigator who kills one.... Must pay the cost for a cult member ship or draw a cult encounter if they are already a cult member :'D Oh good ;') you just got a Dark Young. (This won't take place during final Battle though).

I think I'm going to add in a rule that adds a mythos phase for final combat (only while playing Shub) so you then also have to contend with corruption issues. That'd probably be add much thematic fun (and fighting the Dark Young will lead players to the red corruption deck). And just to clarify before anyone asks, the final battle doesn't specify where you are, so I'm going to assume that Uncontrollable Rage just has no effect. Heeee... We're going to make it to the Red Deck ;'D

Hmmm... Or I could just stick with your original idea of having Dark Young cause two corruptions, and have Shub's final battle changes involve the drawing of mythos movement, eating two monster trophies instead of one, but only having the first player have to deal with a Dark Young each round. Mm?

Avi_dreader said:

Please leave feedback, I really want to make sure that this thing is lots of fun (and balanced), which is why I gave extension rationalizations for my thoughts about this card. I want BGotW fixed right!

I think I better review what is actually *in* the cult deck before making up my mind... You do realize that there are 24 cards, and one of them lets you search the spell deck, and another lets you remove a doom token?

I looked again, and I guess you're right. There are a lot of card draws in there, and there is indeed a Livre d'Ibon clause. (But the "remove a doom token" comes with a DEVOURING.) And they all come with corruptions. So you have a point. But I still think that joining the Cult should be a bit more compulsory, or else I know my Cultists will just ignore it.

Regarding the Final Battle Dark Young: it says "Investigators must fight or evade a Dark Young after Shub attacks." That's an extra combat every round, and with all those weapons that work once and exhaust, you could be forcing Investigators to withhold attacking Shub just to stay armed for a somewhat extraneous melee. Maybe you should walk me through a round of this Final Battle, timing and all.

Is Shub REALLY that easy to fight, even without your new brutal attack? It feels like you're forcing gearing up, or else this battle is impossible. Do these Dark Young not need a Horror Check? So I would still have to balance my Will in a Final Battle where I don't need one? What about Epic Battle cards? I appreciate that you might find Shub a bit easy, but before you pile on a dozen extras, why not just try acing up Shub's attack without adding any minions?

What do you mean by this? Particularly, "By cutting down on the odds of getting one on the board makes this mechanic a bit less common."

I meant compared to the official Black Goat. When there were 7 Dark Young in the "hexagon cup", they came out all the **** time. And since that Black Goat meant playing "Speed Horror", all those Dark Young interrupted the game in an irritating way. Your way puts the Dark Young into a bigger pool, and thus they enter play a bit less often. Even with the increased monster limit, you still won't be grabbing a Dark Young EVERY TIME you put out a Gate. But since you have them ALWAYS moving, they become a larger threat, especially if they're two stomps away from a vortex. Thus, the mechanic occurs less often ("less common"), but there's a lot more motivation to risk facing a rampaging tree.

Which is why I think a Dark Young should be worth 2 Corruptions, or, as you suggest below, a Cult Membership. They won't want to put their hand in the wasp's nest, but they won't have a choice.

Have you given any thought to adding Corruptions to closing Hexagon Gates? Since hexagon monsters leave with their gates as normal, the offending player should get dinged, yes?

One must join the cult when at a cult location, by paying two stamina or three toughness of monster trophies.

Agreed.

Dark Young does not count against the monster limit or go to the Outskirts. An investigator who kills one.... Must pay the cost for a cult member ship or draw a cult encounter if they are already a cult member :'D Oh good ;') you just got a Dark Young. (This won't take place during final Battle though).

OOOO. That's GOOD. Memberships all around! "The Mistress has given you one of her spawn! You are one of us now!" "....I am??"

I think I'm going to add in a rule that adds a mythos phase for final combat (only while playing Shub) so you then also have to contend with corruption issues. That'd probably be add much thematic fun (and fighting the Dark Young will lead players to the red corruption deck). And just to clarify before anyone asks, the final battle doesn't specify where you are, so I'm going to assume that Uncontrollable Rage just has no effect. Heeee... We're going to make it to the Red Deck ;'D

You have so many ideas for the Final Battle, but you really shouldn't use them ALL. (Not without testing a few simulated Final Battles anyway.) That said, drawing a Mythos card for purposes of activating Corruptions is an outstanding idea. It would be like Cthulhu's regeneration step. I much prefer that to any Dark Young fighting.

Aaaand, this might be the final version (I'm pretty happy with it— and will remain so unless playtesting reveals that the cult encounters as currently designed are too exploitable— I don't think they will be though, there's a built in balance to mess up camping). If you don't have Black Goat of the Woods, feel free to just turn off the corruption features. It'll still work (kindof). The added monster limit, and double gate spawning is enough to drastically alter the game, and the mobile Dark Young would add a little more spice. ::Shrug:: it is intended for players who own Black Goat of the Woods though. Hopefully it will be good enough to persuade fence sitters to buy it :') If you can think of any suggestions on how to improve it or criticisms, let me know (I'm not promising that I'll change it, but I will at least consider it especially if it deals with a thematic or balancing issue).

direct link: http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt307/avi_dreader/Blackgoatofthewoods.jpg

Thanks jgt7771, I think this version is probably an major improvement over the last in terms of theme and fun-factor, but if it turns out to be too easy, I'm going to blame you ;') By the way, one of the reasons I left in a Dark Young fight at the end (even though it's now just for one player instead of the whole team) is it provides a mechanism to increase corruption by two every round (and to pick off weak investigators). Its nightmarish will also finish off investigators who have the red corruption card that reduces their sanity to 1. Joy :')

I've actually gotten a few really easy wins against her with teams of two, and can usually beat her in combat with teams of three. Her main problem is her attack is pretty slow, and if you're careful at all, you can have an entire team of investigators easily surviving 8 rounds against her. Not anymore ;')

Anyways, I think final battle will be really exciting now... :') some of those corruption cards can *really* mess investigators up, and some are a bit more of a mixed blessing (pun intended).

G'night.

It's probably obvious that you don't draw more than one cult membership, but if you don't or can't, then your introduction seems to indicate that you lose 2 stamina or must pay 3 monster trophies at the cult locations. Is that intended?

Since you gain your cult membership at the end of movement (phase?), then you will have a cult encounter (assuming you survive any monsters). When does movement end for this? Before or after you fight monsters? The rules state, for example, you pick up clues at the end of your movement but I think one of the FAQs clarifies that you don't do that until after you've engaged monsters which are still in the movement phase. This might be more of a general rule question.

Half the time the Dark Young, when starting on the street will return to their original spot. In addition, because they move always on the black, they are predictable. Also when do they move? At the beginning or end of the Mythos phase or (first) player's choice? It even makes a difference when they move out of a location.

If the cult encounter sends you to the streets, do you still have a normal encounter? Or do they take place simultaneously?

Be gentle.

mageith said:

Yes :') you do not accumulate more than one card (I would've been more explicit, but the text there was pretty crammed, and, as you said, it's pretty obvious). You are right about the wording though... As it's currently written it sounds like you pay it every time you go to the location (when it's only supposed to be paid if you don't have a membership). I'll probably post a fixed version tonight or tomorrow morning (just on the off chance someone else has corrections, I'd rather not post a *third* version).

All monster movement is predictable. When does a monster ever move more than twice? I know what you mean, you might gamble on a monster not moving and be in a location next to it (I almost never do). The possibility of a double movement adds a little unpredictability. And besides, that's not the only intention of them. It's to get them wandering (and cluttering) the town, never clustering with other monsters, and rushing into vortexes if you don't take them out. And of course, being vessels for corruption :') Not all monster movement needs to be the same, consider them having special movement now.

You can house rule whether you draw a cult card before or after fighting a monster (personally, I'd be inclined to say after, but to be honest, I didn't give it any thought). You definitely have encounters the turn you land there (I put it in movement to make that clear, but apparently I created another rules dilemma ::sigh:.

If the cult encounter sends you to the streets, you do not have a normal encounter ;') another reason I put the cult encounter first.

Anyways, thanks for providing the correction, the way the cult membership rule was to be played would only be obvious to people who saw the original version of the card and discussion (the wording's incomplete).

Here is what I *hope* is the final copy (I fixed a few issues with the flavor text that have been annoying me too).

direct link: http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt307/avi_dreader/BlackgoatofthewoodsFINAL.jpg

I'm still curious as the order of movement for Dark Young.

For example, the DY move out of location on black and then move according to the Mythos card (say white), then they move white on the streets. However if they move out of the location on white (mythos), then they will move black on the streets. If you give players this choice then that's a lot of(unreal?) control. Same thing if they are on the streets. If an investigator is adjacent on another arrowed street, the order of DY movement determines if the investigator is ignored or encounters the DY. It gives the investigator (or the first player) the choice. Is that your intention?

The order of your wording perhaps intimates that the black movement is first, but its not airtight.

Yeah. The Black movement is first ::sigh:: but I don't think it'll make a huge difference in the game dynamics, so, if players want to leave it to their interpretation (in their favor) that's fine with me (more fine than me posting *another* copy anyways).