Of course, those same people had wiped an entire planet off the map to make "a point", and generally ruled the galaxy with a iron fist. The force took exception to such a disruptive group of people being wiped out evidently.

Circumstances is everything. By merely being on that station they had become a thrall of the darkside and thus disposable to the force in the simpliest possible simplification; they had to die to stop the station from firing again.

Well they view conflict as literally being conflicted with one's self ie you kill someone "oh my god I just killed someone am I an evil person? was it ok?"

How do you folks handle PC input on conflict decisions?

They bash at me for complaining and rules lawyering then usually say something to refer to the star wars lore, at least one of the non GM's does

My final word of advice is that the fun isn't in rules lawyering, min/maxing, or power gaming. The fun is sitting around a table with like minded individuals and enjoying the story that we face together.

I didnt buy the book just cause it looked cool. The base rules are there for a reason I only rules lawyer because some of my players misinterpret A LOT of the abilities and the GM doesnt realize. Then they say "put down the book man this is suppose to be fun" agreed, but that doesnt mean you can just break the rules willy nilly ven if its not on purpose "GM final say" fair enough but if the GM doesnt know the rules hes trying to follow it's an issue like then whats the point of even spending exp to further your character if we can just break the rules and do something we shouldnt be able to

I dont rules lawyer to be annoying I do it cuz some of them, if not all, dont remember or misinterpret the rules so I step in to make sure they're not cheating by accident so the game is fair for everyone

Fairness = Fun

Sounds like that the group you are in is not suited to you. My best advice is no game is better than a bad game. Find a different game that you will like. If the GM fails to do his job as enforce the existing rules or arbitrates existing rules then leave. You're not going to change anything other than your group's opinion of you. Let me tell you the more you disrupt the game the more of a reputation you will get locally, if you are doing local games, of being someone that is a disruptive player. You will never find a game once that label is on you.

How do you folks handle PC input on conflict decisions?

They bash at me for complaining and rules lawyering then usually say something to refer to the star wars lore, at least one of the non GM's does

My final word of advice is that the fun isn't in rules lawyering, min/maxing, or power gaming. The fun is sitting around a table with like minded individuals and enjoying the story that we face together.

I didnt buy the book just cause it looked cool. The base rules are there for a reason I only rules lawyer because some of my players misinterpret A LOT of the abilities and the GM doesnt realize. Then they say "put down the book man this is suppose to be fun" agreed, but that doesnt mean you can just break the rules willy nilly ven if its not on purpose "GM final say" fair enough but if the GM doesnt know the rules hes trying to follow it's an issue like then whats the point of even spending exp to further your character if we can just break the rules and do something we shouldnt be able to

I dont rules lawyer to be annoying I do it cuz some of them, if not all, dont remember or misinterpret the rules so I step in to make sure they're not cheating by accident so the game is fair for everyone

Fairness = Fun

Sounds like that the group you are in is not suited to you. My best advice is no game is better than a bad game. Find a different game that you will like. If the GM fails to do his job as enforce the existing rules or arbitrates existing rules then leave. You're not going to change anything other than your group's opinion of you. Let me tell you the more you disrupt the game the more of a reputation you will get locally, if you are doing local games, of being someone that is a disruptive player. You will never find a game once that label is on you.

He cant memorize every little rule so when he's busy with someone else and Im doing nothing I refer to my book. The GM isnt the issue

He cant memorize every little rule so when he's busy with someone else and Im doing nothing I refer to my book. The GM isnt the issue

Talk to the GM. Sometimes it is better to point out things to the GM after the game as opposed to during the game. But if your use of the rules is spoiling other peoples fun then you need to accept that and either stop or find a new game. This is a group activity. If most of the group wants to go rules light and doesn't really care that they are following all the rules then that's how the game should be played. But rules lawyering the other players isn't the way to go man. It's only going to make the group angry at you.

Ultimately if you can't accept their playstyle you have to find another group.

I'm all for players rights and everything, but you have to understand that if the group wants to do something else you either go along with it or you leave the game. But the more you butt in with the rules and it's not welcomed the more you become the problem. They sound like they find their current playstyle fun though soooooooo I mean I know it sucks but unless the GM is asking you to keep track of the rules he can't for the group then you gotta either roll with their idea of fun or drop the group.

I know it sucks but that's the reality of gaming. Group trumps player. If the group as a whole have made a decision then you going against it is only going to ruin the game for everyone. And as the Patriot has pointed out, once you get labeled as a bad gamer that kinda sticks with you. Gaming can be a small community at times and people regularly talk about who is cool and fun to game with and who isn't. You may want to consider bailing before you get a negative stigma attached to yourself.

He cant memorize every little rule so when he's busy with someone else and Im doing nothing I refer to my book. The GM isnt the issue

He cant memorize every little rule so when he's busy with someone else and Im doing nothing I refer to my book. The GM isnt the issue

Talk to the GM. Sometimes it is better to point out things to the GM after the game as opposed to during the game. But if your use of the rules is spoiling other peoples fun then you need to accept that and either stop or find a new game. This is a group activity. If most of the group wants to go rules light and doesn't really care that they are following all the rules then that's how the game should be played. But rules lawyering the other players isn't the way to go man. It's only going to make the group angry at you.

I know it sucks but that's the reality of gaming. Group trumps player. If the group as a whole have made a decision then you going against it is only going to ruin the game for everyone. And as the Patriot has pointed out, once you get labeled as a bad gamer that kinda sticks with you. Gaming can be a small community at times and people regularly talk about who is cool and fun to game with and who isn't. You may want to consider bailing before you get a negative stigma attached to yourself.

I'm all for players rights and everything, but you have to understand that if the group wants to do something else you either go along with it or you leave the game. But the more you butt in with the rules and it's not welcomed the more you become the problem. They sound like they find their current playstyle fun though soooooooo I mean I know it sucks but unless the GM is asking you to keep track of the rules he can't for the group then you gotta either roll with their idea of fun or drop the group.

The GM is going by the rules as much as possible (like i said he cant remember all of them) if someone breaks it w/o knowing i usually mention it after the session via text unless it's super game changing or there are questions that need answering

and by that logic I guess since everyone else is cheating and it's fun for them, I suppose it's okay for me; time to go spam non bought force powers and upgrades in the next session and maybe I'll parry a lightsaber with my fists and reflect a blaster bolt with a stick while I'm at it (Group trumps player only if it's the whole group fyi. the GM sides with me just not openly)

Cheating is fun and all, but not for the one trying to follow the rules

I am kinda with NinjaX. Our group is not interested in accidentally cheating and one of our GMS is Dyslexic. In addition to that we rotate systems every 8 weeks. Having someone at the table that is not the GM as a rules prompter/finder we find keeps the action flowing. This usually falls to me as I seem to be the best at learning systems and finding obscure rules.

An example.

GM. Ok you enter the cave and in front of you is an Ancient sith ghost take a difficult fear check as a feeling of dread creeps over you.

Players 1,2,4 and me pass player 3 fails miserably.

Player 1: ok I'm gonna try and attack it!

GM: the attack passes right through.

Player 2: hold on I think I have a talent that let's player 3 retake his fear check how does that work.

Me: I will look it up.

GM: ok we will come back to that in a second and skip to player 4.

Note hasty written example pulled from thin air, talent may not exist etc.

He cant memorize every little rule so when he's busy with someone else and Im doing nothing I refer to my book. The GM isnt the issue

He cant memorize every little rule so when he's busy with someone else and Im doing nothing I refer to my book. The GM isnt the issue

Talk to the GM. Sometimes it is better to point out things to the GM after the game as opposed to during the game. But if your use of the rules is spoiling other peoples fun then you need to accept that and either stop or find a new game. This is a group activity. If most of the group wants to go rules light and doesn't really care that they are following all the rules then that's how the game should be played. But rules lawyering the other players isn't the way to go man. It's only going to make the group angry at you.

I know it sucks but that's the reality of gaming. Group trumps player. If the group as a whole have made a decision then you going against it is only going to ruin the game for everyone. And as the Patriot has pointed out, once you get labeled as a bad gamer that kinda sticks with you. Gaming can be a small community at times and people regularly talk about who is cool and fun to game with and who isn't. You may want to consider bailing before you get a negative stigma attached to yourself.

I'm all for players rights and everything, but you have to understand that if the group wants to do something else you either go along with it or you leave the game. But the more you butt in with the rules and it's not welcomed the more you become the problem. They sound like they find their current playstyle fun though soooooooo I mean I know it sucks but unless the GM is asking you to keep track of the rules he can't for the group then you gotta either roll with their idea of fun or drop the group.

The GM is going by the rules as much as possible (like i said he cant remember all of them) if someone breaks it w/o knowing i usually mention it after the session via text unless it's super game changing or there are questions that need answering

and by that logic I guess since everyone else is cheating and it's fun for them, I suppose it's okay for me; time to go spam non bought force powers and upgrades in the next session and maybe I'll parry a lightsaber with my fists and reflect a blaster bolt with a stick while I'm at it (Group trumps player only if it's the whole group fyi. the GM sides with me just not openly)

Cheating is fun and all, but not for the one trying to follow the rules

So talk to the players and the GMs. Right now it just sounds like you want to complain and cheat. Currently though your plans will likely make things worse.

Are you more vested in screwing with them or actually gaming?

As someone else said, there are enough disagreements on what actions are conflict-worthy to show that people aren't necessarily on the same page despite Star Wars' black-and-white morality. I like the rule to notify prior to conflict as a default rule because it enables groups to get a bead on what prompts conflict before a player suddenly finds themselves plummeting to the dark side because the GM holds them responsible for all the innocent contractors on that unfinished Death Star. It is an easy thing to house rule away once the group reaches an understanding about how the morality of Star Wars plays out at that particular table.

Star War's black and white morality doesn't actually mean that any action is black or white, just that one side is evil and one is good, and so the good guys actions are good and the bad guys actions are bad. They get round moral questions of whether the good guys violence is justified by having pure evil villains with evil schemes which need to be squashed (or by making the enemy robots... and then accidentally opening the moral question again by giving the robots qualities that suggest they are actually a sentient slave class who have no choice in what they are doing). The "heroes" shoot people almost at a drop of the hat, the great guardians of Galactic peace are primarily a force of mystical warriors who cut people's arms off. It is just it is all ok, because those guys were bad guys. Violence is ok as long as it is directed at the right people (certain things like torture aside). Blowing up the Death Star, and all its crew was ok, because those were bad guys (rather than the actual reason being that it was a genocidal weapon that needed to be stopped at all costs).

Also i never liked the whole black and white morality thing is it true that thats how Lucas originally planned it to be?

Doesn't really look that way. Actually, as I say, the morality is a bit... troublesome if looked at objectively. However, the main thing is that Star Wars is a pulpy adventure story, and so the level of moral thought involved suits it fine.

I have in multiple occasions removed rules lawyers, min/maxers, and power gamers from my games as a GM. Their behaviour inhibits the other players' enjoyment as well as my own. I didn't remove them without warning, but I had a talk with them and told them what behaviour I expected from them. This is coming from a player and GM with 32 years of experience in PnP RPGs. Yes, I was once all three of those disruptive behaviours and grew out of them because my actions had a detrimental effect on the game.

My final word of advice is that the fun isn't in rules lawyering, min/maxing, or power gaming. The fun is sitting around a table with like minded individuals and enjoying the story that we face together.

There is a difference between giving rules advice, possibly drawing attention to something the players and/or GM were not aware of, and rules lawyering. Saying "that's not how the rules actually say to do it, which is x" is fine. It is what happens after that. If the GM decides "That's not how I want to do it", "I know, but I don't like it" (as long as such rulings are applied fairly), "Well, ok, didn't realise, but this time I think we will stick with this" or "I think x is more appropriate in this circumstance" then yes, that should be the matter dropped. It is a point of information, making sure everything is above board giving someone the input of your knowledge, and it may be the GM does decide they prefer the "official" way to do it, but as you say, the GM's rule is final. It is only a problem if the player tries to insist on their interpretation, tries to gain personal advantage from the ruling or is essentially trying to take control of the session (which I have seen, and yes, is disruptive and uncomfortable for everyone involved).

I am kinda with NinjaX. Our group is not interested in accidentally cheating and one of our GMS is Dyslexic. In addition to that we rotate systems every 8 weeks. Having someone at the table that is not the GM as a rules prompter/finder we find keeps the action flowing. This usually falls to me as I seem to be the best at learning systems and finding obscure rules.

An example.

GM. Ok you enter the cave and in front of you is an Ancient sith ghost take a difficult fear check as a feeling of dread creeps over you.

Players 1,2,4 and me pass player 3 fails miserably.

Player 1: ok I'm gonna try and attack it!

GM: the attack passes right through.

Player 2: hold on I think I have a talent that let's player 3 retake his fear check how does that work.

Me: I will look it up.

GM: ok we will come back to that in a second and skip to player 4.

Note hasty written example pulled from thin air, talent may not exist etc.

Yes, this exactly. In the main group I play with we usually have a couple of players (including myself) who often look things through the rules, either to resolve someone's question about something, or while waiting for other players before we make decisions on what we will do (D&D spells are a particular cause of this, as essentially each spell is its own goddam rule, so no one can memorise them all). We might also check up on rules calls we find a bit odd or unexpected. However, we won't overrule the GM, just say if we find something (which will often be after the fact, and I don't think any of the GMs have every retrospectively applied rules corrections, just kept them in mind for the future), and then leave it to the GM what he will do with it.

to be fair time was of the essence

Also we stopped the previous session right before we were gonna leave so we kinda just forgot that the stormtroopers were there

Time aside conflict seems to be appropriate gain because the good path isn't always the easy one. For example lets say you defeat an opponent who was trying to kill you and they're unconscious on the ground. You know if you leave them they might give word of you to the empire or even come after you themselves.

Killing them would give conflict, not the full 10 because they are a serious threat and have attempted to kill you but a good amount none the less since they are, at least at the time, a non-threat. Killing them in the heat of battle however when they're actively attacking you would not give threat however UNLESS, like in your situation, you could have avoided it without bringing excessive harm to others by doing so.

As for loosing in game knowledge out of game that's unfortunate, perhaps suggest to your GM to give a brief overview of what happened last session in the future, it's what I do to avoid that very circumstance.

As someone else said, there are enough disagreements on what actions are conflict-worthy to show that people aren't necessarily on the same page despite Star Wars' black-and-white morality. I like the rule to notify prior to conflict as a default rule because it enables groups to get a bead on what prompts conflict before a player suddenly finds themselves plummeting to the dark side because the GM holds them responsible for all the innocent contractors on that unfinished Death Star. It is an easy thing to house rule away once the group reaches an understanding about how the morality of Star Wars plays out at that particular table.

Ik theoretically by their logic Luke should be the grandmaster sith lord with like -50,000 morality by the end of A New Hope

Well Supreme Murderhobo Luke killed 1.7 million people on the Death Star, so at the Conflict rating of 10 points for each murder his Morality rating would be at -17 million.

I don't see it that way, if you look at the morality rules it doesn't state that merely killing someone for any reason gives you 10 conflict, in fact it makes it abundantly clear that context matters.

Ie jumping a random person and killing them is 10 conflict, getting into a fight and killing a drunken bar goer who started harassing you is bad but not a full 10, defending yourself from a foe who assulted you with no provocation then killing them after they went unconscious because you know they'll do so again after they awake is an even smaller bit of conflict, and killing someone who is actively attempting to kill you who you did not provoke at all and/or attempted to avoid combat against before resorting to violence is 0 conflict.

In the case of Luke the Empire built a giant planet destroying weapon which they used and intended to use again. No amount of diplomacy was going to stop them so destroying it was not, I feel, a conflict worthy action as it was what was necessary to save billions of other innocent lives.

As someone else said, there are enough disagreements on what actions are conflict-worthy to show that people aren't necessarily on the same page despite Star Wars' black-and-white morality. I like the rule to notify prior to conflict as a default rule because it enables groups to get a bead on what prompts conflict before a player suddenly finds themselves plummeting to the dark side because the GM holds them responsible for all the innocent contractors on that unfinished Death Star. It is an easy thing to house rule away once the group reaches an understanding about how the morality of Star Wars plays out at that particular table.

Ik theoretically by their logic Luke should be the grandmaster sith lord with like -50,000 morality by the end of A New Hope

Well Supreme Murderhobo Luke killed 1.7 million people on the Death Star, so at the Conflict rating of 10 points for each murder his Morality rating would be at -17 million.

I don't see it that way, if you look at the morality rules it doesn't state that merely killing someone for any reason gives you 10 conflict, in fact it makes it abundantly clear that context matters.

Ie jumping a random person and killing them is 10 conflict, getting into a fight and killing a drunken bar goer who started harassing you is bad but not a full 10, defending yourself from a foe who assulted you with no provocation then killing them after they went unconscious because you know they'll do so again after they awake is an even smaller bit of conflict, and killing someone who is actively attempting to kill you who you did not provoke at all and/or attempted to avoid combat against before resorting to violence is 0 conflict.

In the case of Luke the Empire built a giant planet destroying weapon which they used and intended to use again. No amount of diplomacy was going to stop them so destroying it was not, I feel, a conflict worthy action as it was what was necessary to save billions of other innocent lives.

I was being sarcastic about Luke.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread actually believes Luke got conflict for blowing up the Death Star. I just threw it out as a random absurd example of a "gotcha" moment, and I'm rather bemused that it's become a serious point of discussion.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread actually believes Luke got conflict for blowing up the Death Star. I just threw it out as a random absurd example of a "gotcha" moment, and I'm rather bemused that it's become a serious point of discussion.

I'm surprised as well, but then I was coming from that thread about murderhobos.

Sorry but Poe's law, hard to spot sarcasm on the internet when it's not clearly implied, especially since we where just talking about whether morality was black and white and when it should be rewarded.

Sorry but Poe's law, hard to spot sarcasm on the internet when it's not clearly implied, especially since we where just talking about whether morality was black and white and when it should be rewarded.

True, but when I phrased it "Supreme Murderhobo" would clue someone in that I was being humorous.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread actually believes Luke got conflict for blowing up the Death Star. I just threw it out as a random absurd example of a "gotcha" moment, and I'm rather bemused that it's become a serious point of discussion.

Oh, I presumed you were being sarcastic... just it does raise the question of morality in Star Wars (ie the complete lack of thought given to the moral quandries of their actions, which to be fair, suits the setting fine).

During a d6 Star Wars game we came to the conclusion that Grand Moff Tarkin was using the Death Star to "level up" his character. The only way Dark Side characters could get character points (which were used to improve your skills) was by gaining more Dark Side points... so Tarkin was going to blow up planets to harvest those points, just he got killed before he got a chance to spend them.

He cant memorize every little rule so when he's busy with someone else and Im doing nothing I refer to my book. The GM isnt the issue

He cant memorize every little rule so when he's busy with someone else and Im doing nothing I refer to my book. The GM isnt the issue

Talk to the GM. Sometimes it is better to point out things to the GM after the game as opposed to during the game. But if your use of the rules is spoiling other peoples fun then you need to accept that and either stop or find a new game. This is a group activity. If most of the group wants to go rules light and doesn't really care that they are following all the rules then that's how the game should be played. But rules lawyering the other players isn't the way to go man. It's only going to make the group angry at you.

I know it sucks but that's the reality of gaming. Group trumps player. If the group as a whole have made a decision then you going against it is only going to ruin the game for everyone. And as the Patriot has pointed out, once you get labeled as a bad gamer that kinda sticks with you. Gaming can be a small community at times and people regularly talk about who is cool and fun to game with and who isn't. You may want to consider bailing before you get a negative stigma attached to yourself.

I'm all for players rights and everything, but you have to understand that if the group wants to do something else you either go along with it or you leave the game. But the more you butt in with the rules and it's not welcomed the more you become the problem. They sound like they find their current playstyle fun though soooooooo I mean I know it sucks but unless the GM is asking you to keep track of the rules he can't for the group then you gotta either roll with their idea of fun or drop the group.

The GM is going by the rules as much as possible (like i said he cant remember all of them) if someone breaks it w/o knowing i usually mention it after the session via text unless it's super game changing or there are questions that need answering

and by that logic I guess since everyone else is cheating and it's fun for them, I suppose it's okay for me; time to go spam non bought force powers and upgrades in the next session and maybe I'll parry a lightsaber with my fists and reflect a blaster bolt with a stick while I'm at it (Group trumps player only if it's the whole group fyi. the GM sides with me just not openly)

Cheating is fun and all, but not for the one trying to follow the rules

So talk to the players and the GMs. Right now it just sounds like you want to complain and cheat. Currently though your plans will likely make things worse.

Are you more vested in screwing with them or actually gaming?

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

I don't think cheating is ok, that is in no way what I said. What I said is that you resorting to cheating is not cool. Exploiting the rules because you know them better than the rest of the table is not ok. And it's also not cheating if they don't really know the rules, which is what you've indicated. But you've also indicated that they don't really care about knowing all the rules or even playing by them. Which is cool too.

If you desire a game that adheres closer to the rules and the group doesn't then you ultimately have to either decide to move on and find another group or just settle for the one you have. You can't force people to play your way. That's not the right way to game.

The simple truth is not everyone cares to play by the rules or all the rules. Some people play lose. Some strictly adhere. You can be as snarky with me as you like but I'm not the one who was talking about cheating everybody else because you knew the rules better and could exploit them better. Group trumps player but don't be the player that everyone hates. Because I can promise you this, the moment the rest of the players realize you're exploiting the rules due to your better knowledge you'll be the bad guy and you'll be the guy they tell other groups to avoid.

This group, as you describe them, doesn't sound interested in adhering to all the rules. That's ok if that's what the group wants. You want something else then ..... find a group that games the way you do. I hate hack and slash gaming. I don't join a group that hack and slashes and then tries to force them to spend more time on story and less on killing. I join groups that play the way I enjoy playing. You need to do the same.

Or don't, it's not my reputation on the line and it's not me who has to live with the fallout of what you're doing. But forcing the rest of the group to play the way you want to when they clearly don't want to or don't find it fun is wrong. It's bad gaming.

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

So talk to the players and the GMs. Right now it just sounds like you want to complain and cheat. Currently though your plans will likely make things worse.

Are you more vested in screwing with them or actually gaming?

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

Sounds like to me that you're being childish and throwing a temper tantrum because the group doesn't want to play the way you want them to. You have posted numerous times on how to exploit the rules to powergame and min/max. To me that's cheating since you are taking the Rules As Intended to make it into something that barely resembles the spirit of the game. If you were at my table and doing these disruptions I would point out that you are cheating the group with your exploiting of the system and that you are acting like a child when things aren't going your way. Yes, I would call you out in front of the whole group to respond to your disrespect and inhospitality towards the group. If you didn't toe the group ground rules after the first warning then I would tell you to pack your stuff and get out of my house. If someone asked me about your behaviour at my table I would tell them the truth and there goes any chance of you ever getting a group again locally.

Start being an adult and conform with the group. If you don't then it's your duty to find a different group that fits your playstyle. Suck it up like an adult or move on.

Dude it would be one thing if you where stating the rules and the other players at the table where receptive but you made it clear their not and not enjoying what you're doing. I get your intent but you've been rather hostile with your responses here when people didn't pat you on the back and tell you to keep it up. I'm sorry but they're right, if the other players don't like what you're doing then continuing to do it won't help that situation. I like playing by the rules to but if your group doesn't want to be that strict and finds constantly being corrected to be annoying (especially if your attitude thus far to people merely pointing out you might want to find a new group more in line with your play style instead of trying to shove a round peg through a square hole) then no amount of continuing this behavior is going to help you, it's just going to make them resent you more and more.

That or you should GM because then you tell the players what checks to make and what they can and can't do.

I'm sorry but they're right,

Yeah the reason they dont like it is because they want to be right so when I whip out my book they they say stop, I stop then after session I look it up *GASP* you were cheating the entire time w/o knowing **** if only I took 10 secs to look it up

This usually applies to one player in particular so now I have to wait till afterwards and most of the time they ended up cheating w/o knowing. Though it does give my GM more incentive to look over some other rules for future sessions just in case so all in all we're pretty good now

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

So talk to the players and the GMs. Right now it just sounds like you want to complain and cheat. Currently though your plans will likely make things worse.

Are you more vested in screwing with them or actually gaming?

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

Sounds like to me that you're being childish and throwing a temper tantrum because the group doesn't want to play the way you want them to. You have posted numerous times on how to exploit the rules to powergame and min/max. To me that's cheating since you are taking the Rules As Intended to make it into something that barely resembles the spirit of the game. If you were at my table and doing these disruptions I would point out that you are cheating the group with your exploiting of the system and that you are acting like a child when things aren't going your way. Yes, I would call you out in front of the whole group to respond to your disrespect and inhospitality towards the group. If you didn't toe the group ground rules after the first warning then I would tell you to pack your stuff and get out of my house. If someone asked me about your behavior at my table I would tell them the truth and there goes any chance of you ever getting a group again locally.

Clearly my words have been misinterpreted some where along the way

First of all those "exploits" were jokes sorry if that wasn't obvious enough cuz ya know...internet, no talking, no tone of voice, blah blah blah and further more "cheating by exploiting the rules" is literally an oxymoron (being dishonest and disobeying the rules by completely following the rules; makes perfect sense) granted none of us do that, but how nice of you to assume that that's what I do solely based on my posts (assuming makes an ASS out of U... nope that's it I forget the rest)

Second I've already stated that now I only break out the book if its a game changer or if they ask, if not I simply send a text afterwards stating what was wrong then its fixed next session

Third Good to know that if I'm ever in your group to not get on you bad side, but for now MY GM the one I'M playing with is ok with how I'm doing the rules thing so ... yea that's it done and done

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

I don't think cheating is ok, that is in no way what I said. What I said is that you resorting to cheating is not cool. Exploiting the rules because you know them better than the rest of the table is not ok. And it's also not cheating if they don't really know the rules, which is what you've indicated. But you've also indicated that they don't really care about knowing all the rules or even playing by them. Which is cool too.

Once again I NEVER SAID I WAS EXPLOITING THE RULES, I only said what i said was because you said I should go along with the group, not caring about the rules (The GM DOES care about the rules if i didn't say that enough already)

If you are breaking the rules, whether you know them or not, you are cheating, not intentionally, but cheating nonetheless which I can understand

They care about the rules and so does the GM however if they make a mistake they expect the GM to catch it which he cant always do so the person with a book is there just in case. thankfully most incidents are fairly minor so now I just mention it afterwards via text

Just in case no one caught it before I NEVER SAID I WAS EXPLOITING THE RULES

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

So talk to the players and the GMs. Right now it just sounds like you want to complain and cheat. Currently though your plans will likely make things worse.

Are you more vested in screwing with them or actually gaming?

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

"Suck it up like an adult"

On the flip side I can fight for what I think is right (like an adult of course) and eventually come to a peaceful agreement that we all can agree to which I already have

or could have done that, bent over, submit, and inevitably not have fun

good thing I didn't

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

So talk to the players and the GMs. Right now it just sounds like you want to complain and cheat. Currently though your plans will likely make things worse.

Are you more vested in screwing with them or actually gaming?

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

"Suck it up like an adult"

On the flip side I can fight for what I think is right (like an adult of course) and eventually come to a peaceful agreement that we all can agree to which I already have

or could have done that, bent over, submit, and inevitably not have fun

good thing I didn't

I'm sorry but they're right,

Yeah the reason they dont like it is because they want to be right so when I whip out my book they they say stop, I stop then after session I look it up *GASP* you were cheating the entire time w/o knowing **** if only I took 10 secs to look it up

This usually applies to one player in particular so now I have to wait till afterwards and most of the time they ended up cheating w/o knowing. Though it does give my GM more incentive to look over some other rules for future sessions just in case so all in all we're pretty good now

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

So talk to the players and the GMs. Right now it just sounds like you want to complain and cheat. Currently though your plans will likely make things worse.

Are you more vested in screwing with them or actually gaming?

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

Sounds like to me that you're being childish and throwing a temper tantrum because the group doesn't want to play the way you want them to. You have posted numerous times on how to exploit the rules to powergame and min/max. To me that's cheating since you are taking the Rules As Intended to make it into something that barely resembles the spirit of the game. If you were at my table and doing these disruptions I would point out that you are cheating the group with your exploiting of the system and that you are acting like a child when things aren't going your way. Yes, I would call you out in front of the whole group to respond to your disrespect and inhospitality towards the group. If you didn't toe the group ground rules after the first warning then I would tell you to pack your stuff and get out of my house. If someone asked me about your behavior at my table I would tell them the truth and there goes any chance of you ever getting a group again locally.

Clearly my words have been misinterpreted some where along the way

First of all those "exploits" were jokes sorry if that wasn't obvious enough cuz ya know...internet, no talking, no tone of voice, blah blah blah and further more "cheating by exploiting the rules" is literally an oxymoron (being dishonest and disobeying the rules by completely following the rules; makes perfect sense) granted none of us do that, but how nice of you to assume that that's what I do solely based on my posts (assuming makes an ASS out of U... nope that's it I forget the rest)

Second I've already stated that now I only break out the book if its a game changer or if they ask, if not I simply send a text afterwards stating what was wrong then its fixed next session

Third Good to know that if I'm ever in your group to not get on you bad side, but for now MY GM the one I'M playing with is ok with how I'm doing the rules thing so ... yea that's it done and done

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

I don't think cheating is ok, that is in no way what I said. What I said is that you resorting to cheating is not cool. Exploiting the rules because you know them better than the rest of the table is not ok. And it's also not cheating if they don't really know the rules, which is what you've indicated. But you've also indicated that they don't really care about knowing all the rules or even playing by them. Which is cool too.

Once again I NEVER SAID I WAS EXPLOITING THE RULES, I only said what i said was because you said I should go along with the group, not caring about the rules (The GM DOES care about the rules if i didn't say that enough already)

If you are breaking the rules, whether you know them or not, you are cheating, not intentionally, but cheating nonetheless which I can understand

They care about the rules and so does the GM however if they make a mistake they expect the GM to catch it which he cant always do so the person with a book is there just in case. thankfully most incidents are fairly minor so now I just mention it afterwards via text

Just in case no one caught it before I NEVER SAID I WAS EXPLOITING THE RULES

Thanks for proving me right that you are childish and throwing a temper tantrum. The hostility you are directing at me for telling you to be an adult and conform with the group is astounding. You are lashing out like a 5 year old that had his toys taken away. As such, I will direct my attention elsewhere and have an adult conversation with the rest of the adults on the board.

I'm sorry but they're right,

Yeah the reason they dont like it is because they want to be right so when I whip out my book they they say stop, I stop then after session I look it up *GASP* you were cheating the entire time w/o knowing **** if only I took 10 secs to look it up

This usually applies to one player in particular so now I have to wait till afterwards and most of the time they ended up cheating w/o knowing. Though it does give my GM more incentive to look over some other rules for future sessions just in case so all in all we're pretty good now

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

So talk to the players and the GMs. Right now it just sounds like you want to complain and cheat. Currently though your plans will likely make things worse.

Are you more vested in screwing with them or actually gaming?

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

Sounds like to me that you're being childish and throwing a temper tantrum because the group doesn't want to play the way you want them to. You have posted numerous times on how to exploit the rules to powergame and min/max. To me that's cheating since you are taking the Rules As Intended to make it into something that barely resembles the spirit of the game. If you were at my table and doing these disruptions I would point out that you are cheating the group with your exploiting of the system and that you are acting like a child when things aren't going your way. Yes, I would call you out in front of the whole group to respond to your disrespect and inhospitality towards the group. If you didn't toe the group ground rules after the first warning then I would tell you to pack your stuff and get out of my house. If someone asked me about your behavior at my table I would tell them the truth and there goes any chance of you ever getting a group again locally.

Clearly my words have been misinterpreted some where along the way

First of all those "exploits" were jokes sorry if that wasn't obvious enough cuz ya know...internet, no talking, no tone of voice, blah blah blah and further more "cheating by exploiting the rules" is literally an oxymoron (being dishonest and disobeying the rules by completely following the rules; makes perfect sense) granted none of us do that, but how nice of you to assume that that's what I do solely based on my posts (assuming makes an ASS out of U... nope that's it I forget the rest)

Second I've already stated that now I only break out the book if its a game changer or if they ask, if not I simply send a text afterwards stating what was wrong then its fixed next session

Third Good to know that if I'm ever in your group to not get on you bad side, but for now MY GM the one I'M playing with is ok with how I'm doing the rules thing so ... yea that's it done and done

I want to prevent future mishaps by addressing the rules when ppl break them so ppl like me dont feel cheated since we were trying to follow the rules

but if you think that its ok if everyone cheats and they all agree then so be it why do we even need a rule book at this point

group trumps player after all well guess what, GM trumps group and GM is going by the rules

I don't think cheating is ok, that is in no way what I said. What I said is that you resorting to cheating is not cool. Exploiting the rules because you know them better than the rest of the table is not ok. And it's also not cheating if they don't really know the rules, which is what you've indicated. But you've also indicated that they don't really care about knowing all the rules or even playing by them. Which is cool too.

Once again I NEVER SAID I WAS EXPLOITING THE RULES, I only said what i said was because you said I should go along with the group, not caring about the rules (The GM DOES care about the rules if i didn't say that enough already)

If you are breaking the rules, whether you know them or not, you are cheating, not intentionally, but cheating nonetheless which I can understand

They care about the rules and so does the GM however if they make a mistake they expect the GM to catch it which he cant always do so the person with a book is there just in case. thankfully most incidents are fairly minor so now I just mention it afterwards via text

Just in case no one caught it before I NEVER SAID I WAS EXPLOITING THE RULES

Thanks for proving me right that you are childish and throwing a temper tantrum. The hostility you are directing at me for telling you to be an adult and conform with the group is astounding. You are lashing out like a 5 year old that had his toys taken away. As such, I will direct my attention elsewhere and have an adult conversation with the rest of the adults on the board.

Excuse me if I don't just sit there and "suck up" you bashing on and insulting me. I'm not afraid to say what I mean unlike others who hide behind a passive aggressive nature. Its fine if some ppl dont agree with me I can accept that, but when they out right insult me (or passively w/o looking like the bad guy when they are) then well yes I will retort, kindly at 1st then hostile and non passive aggressive 2nd. And I still dont know why you responded I already said the matter was resolved...

Word to the wise: don't punch someone in the face and not expect them to shove your face into a wall