This is an article that I re-read every once in a while. Whilst the depiction of an American victory against my own British blood galls me, nonetheless it's a fantastic tale of two old-fashioned ships using some glorious tactics to outdo one another, all whilst being completely class about the whole thing.

My favourite line from it all has to be:

When the Lieutenant boarded Guerriere and asked if Guerriere was prepared to surrender, Captain Dacres responded "Well, Sir, I don't know. Our mizzen mast is gone, our fore and main masts are gone - I think on the whole you might say we have struck our flag."

There's plenty of awesome naval fiction out there, but this is a great bit of real-world inspiration for my Armada games. Just thought y'all might appreciate the share.

Such encounters with the US Navy heavy frigates led to the standing order to all Royal Navy ships 5th rate and below, to only engage the US frigates in squadron.

The Royal Navy did regain some of her naval prider later on in the war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_USS_Chesapeake

I will save the Battle of Lake Erie & the Battle of Lake Champlain for others, but both were brilliant examples of Squadron tactics. (The US won those too.)

Though, I will mention, it was Commodore Perry's change of flag ship mid battle on Lake Erie, that inspired me to suggest a version of the Escape Shuttle card in DA's custom cards.

Good ole' Iron Sides. I understand that the American produced frigates at the time were the superior ship in that class and the U.S.S. Constitution was the epitome of American Oak, big gunned frigates. It didn't help that Guerriere was French built haha (no offense to our French players out there). Thanks for sharing, I'm a big fan of the age of wooden ships and iron men.

Good ole' Iron Sides. I understand that the American produced frigates at the time were the superior ship in that class and the U.S.S. Constitution was the epitome of American Oak, big gunned frigates. It didn't help that Guerriere was French built haha (no offense to our French players out there). Thanks for sharing, I'm a big fan of the age of wooden ships and iron men.

USS United States 1797-1865

On 15 June (1862), she was fitted out as a receiving ship with a deck battery of 19 guns for harbor defense.

In this role, she served her new owners well but was ordered sunk in the Elizabeth River, Virginia, to form an obstruction to Union vessels when the Confederates abandoned the navy yard in May 1862. The old timbers of the frigate were so strong and well-preserved they ruined one whole box of axes when attempts were made to scuttle her, and it was necessary to bore through the hull from inside before she was sunk.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_USS_Chesapeake

That Captain Broke was a bloody hero! Reading about all of his gunnery shenanigans... Just awesome.

So, I see him as being aboard a Paragon Assault Frigate Mark II , with Gunnery Teams and Enhanced Armament , 'cause, y'know, BROADSIDES.

Such encounters with the US Navy heavy frigates led to the standing order to all Royal Navy ships 5th rate and below, to only engage the US frigates in squadron.

The Royal Navy did regain some of her naval prider later on in the war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_USS_Chesapeake

I will save the Battle of Lake Erie & the Battle of Lake Champlain for others, but both were brilliant examples of Squadron tactics. (The US won those too.)

Now let's be fair.....the big American 44 gun frigates, actually operated around 50 guns ( including carronades) that put them well in the fourth rate class ( 48 to 60 guns), therefore a British fifth rate frigate ( generally 36 to 38 guns) with less and lighter guns, lighter walls and smaller crews had no hope.

The order not to engage was given as A) The 44 gun frigates were officially fifth rate and therefore "officially" the small 36 and 38 gun frigates were their peer ( even through they were operationally no where near) B) the Royal Navy did not expect its captains back down from a peer on peer engagement and had shot the odd senior officer for doing just that. c) The general culture of the Royal Navy at that time was was bugger the odds..... Attack......... Therefore giving this order was official acknowledgment that the American 44,s were in fact a different class of warship and not a peer,so don't feel bad about legging it and ....o... Yes we won't shoot you for cowardice.

Same sort of thing happened in the Second World War with the German "pocket battle ships", officially they classed around the same as a heavy cruiser, but they would simple eat any heavy cruiser alive with those 11inch guns (see battle of river plate and 3 very Broken RN heavy and light cruisers).

Note that by convention carronades were never included in the gun count, and many British ships mounted more cannons than their "official" ratings. Guerriere herself mounted carronades. But your point that the Americans outgunned the Brits is still true, as the Constitution mounted long 24-pound cannon vs the Guerriere's 18-pounders.

And I suppose WGNF's comment was mostly in jest, but for historical accuracy most French ships were better designed, and handled better than British designed ships. The Royal Navy just had better men and officers to crew the ships.

If only there were wind in space - then we could really replicate some of these classic battles using Armada!

Oh, and for further inspiration I highly recommend the Hornblower novels. Once you've got those under your belt you can start in on the ultimate addiction, Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-someone series (Master & Commander, etc).

Quite true, except for the 4th rate part. 4th rates were generally older ships, or converted, big West India traders, and were structurally not a match for the American heavy frigates. Now a closer analogous ship would be the British Razee Frigates, like the HMS Indefatigable, also rated as a 44 gun 5th rate after the razeing.

Oh, and for further inspiration I highly recommend the Hornblower novels. Once you've got those under your belt you can start in on the ultimate addiction, Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-someone series (Master & Commander, etc).

Stephen Maturin was the ship's doctor and the other name in the title "Aubrey-Maturin Series".

They are well-written and I must also say that they definitely make an enjoyable read. Very atmospheric.

Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves. Most

important lesson for Armada is to finish your croquet game and let your opponent play round 1 own. You'll still win.

Note that by convention carronades were never included in the gun count, and many British ships mounted more cannons than their "official" ratings. Guerriere herself mounted carronades. But your point that the Americans outgunned the Brits is still true, as the Constitution mounted long 24-pound cannon vs the Guerriere's 18-pounders.

And I suppose WGNF's comment was mostly in jest, but for historical accuracy most French ships were better designed, and handled better than British designed ships. The Royal Navy just had better men and officers to crew the ships.

If only there were wind in space - then we could really replicate some of these classic battles using Armada!

Oh, and for further inspiration I highly recommend the Hornblower novels. Once you've got those under your belt you can start in on the ultimate addiction, Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-someone series (Master & Commander, etc).

Re the carronades not counting in the gun count... That's not quite true.... There are a large number of RN ships of that period in which the carronades were counted in their official gun count and rating......cynanbloodbanes razee 44 gun frigates (of which 6 were carronades) included. I believe where they were added to an already rated older ship it kept its original rating and the additional couple of carronades did not count. If it was added as part of a rebuild as in a razee or a new construction it would have been included in the official gun count/rating.

Cynanbloodbane remember that from 1813 the RN razee frigates (from cut down 74s) all got reclassed as fourth raters even after getting cut down....

Just checked up on th carronade rule and official gun count.... It's muddled...... Generally if a carronade replaces a cannon it was included in the gun count, if it was just added it was not.... But this was not always the case.. So you had some of the later 50 gun fourth raters frigates carrying 30 cannon and 30 carronades but only being rated for a total of 50 guns. It all got cleared up in 1817 when all carronades were included in the gun count.....

I did say "generally", and the 64 gun razees were not only comparable, but also very successful, making them the better comparison. I agree, an argument can be made either way.

The 4th rate category is colored by such famous dilapidated beasts as the Leopard. I do so wish that the USS Construction had faced off against the HMS Leopard during the war. I personally believe the result would have been that no 4th rates or below should engage a US Heavy Frigate except in squadron. The Leopard, like many 4th rates couldn't fire a true broadside anymore due to structural issues, and were forced to use a staggered broadside to prevent damage to the ship. Other than the 74 razees, 4th rates were not a coveted command in the Royal Navy. My point was that the razees were the best analogous ship tu the US Heavy Frigate, so I picked the most famous British razee as a comparison.

Oh, the gun count was one of the most fudged stats in the classification system. Carronades were counted if they wanted them to be. There was at least one 64 gun 3rd rat that was fitted with only carronades. While lacking range of accuracy, she fired a heavier weight of broadside than HMS Victory.

It didn't help that Guerriere was French built haha (no offense to our French players out there).

I was all ready to post a reply demolishing this statement, a boyhood spent reading Patrick O'Brian having thoroughly indoctrinated me to the idea that as a result of having access to the whole of the continental system French built ships were superior in design and material as compared to their British counterparts.

However as a result of looking for some scholarly backup for my post it turns out I am completely dished, French naval architecture being markedly inferior to the British.

In return for leading me to learn something new in a subject I was sure of I give you my sources and a master and commander meme.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-057.htm

https://books.google.com/books?id=zbmfAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=napoleonic+wars+french+build+vs.+british+built&source=bl&ots=0LrjKL9CvZ&sig=BNoqrfrxEgkYaPeyuzvmeEFc5_c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5rpXtj9_KAhUJyT4KHbERCcYQ6AEIQTAG#v=onepage&q=napoleonic%20wars%20french%20build%20vs.%20british%20built&f=false

Fascinating reading! I couldn't get the details of the Osprey book, but the theory of the first post is neat. What I take away is that French ships were designed to be better sailors in light weather, but were poorly built. Not to mention crew amenities (or lack thereof). I don't think it's conclusive evidence, but certainly is circumstantial!

I did say "generally", and the 64 gun razees were not only comparable, but also very successful, making them the better comparison. I agree, an argument can be made either way.

The 4th rate category is colored by such famous dilapidated beasts as the Leopard. I do so wish that the USS Construction had faced off against the HMS Leopard during the war. I personally believe the result would have been that no 4th rates or below should engage a US Heavy Frigate except in squadron. The Leopard, like many 4th rates couldn't fire a true broadside anymore due to structural issues, and were forced to use a staggered broadside to prevent damage to the ship. Other than the 74 razees, 4th rates were not a coveted command in the Royal Navy. My point was that the razees were the best analogous ship tu the US Heavy Frigate, so I picked the most famous British razee as a comparison.

Yep agree that those 4th rate ships in the RN at the start of the 1812 war would have been lambs to the slaughter If sent against an American 44.The late and post war 24 pounder 4th rate, 50 (60) gun frigates were different beasts and were commissioned to combat the American 44s.

Not sure if the RN 44 gun razee frigates can compare to the American 44s (close but no prize for second place), they had lighter armament (less 24 pounders, more lighter guns) and were getting on 30 years old. So I think it would have only gone one way...... After all the U.S. did build its 44s to specifically beat any European frigate and run from any ship of the line.

This is why I play Sails of Glory from Ares games

Based off the wings of war/glory system, not unlike x-wing, but with broadsides and wind and grog!

If you havent read it, I highly suggest "Six Frigates".

http://www.amazon.com/Six-Frigates-Epic-History-Founding/dp/039333032X

It reads very much like an O'Brian novel, with much of its source material being the correspondence of the ships captains.

Wooden Ships and Iron Men is an old Avalon Hill game I love and one of the first games I played in my youth.

Yes, the comment on French vessels was meant in jest (mostly) as you should never underestimate your opponent. However, as a whole system, a British or American vessel against a similar French warship would win the engagement (tactical positioning and luck notwithstanding). Some of that is due to better ships and equipment, but most of it is due to better crew. The British (and by extension the American) fleets had better conditions on board and had discovered how to beat scurvy (citrus, hence the nickname for British sailors, Limey) and therefore keep more of their sailors longer. French and Spanish ships generally had larger, less experienced crews onboard to absorb the losses expected from scurvy et al. diseases. Then there were the ravages of the revolution …

The razees were an excellent idea and I do wonder how Constitution would have fared against one. The purpose built vs the converted.

I agree with the carronades assessment that they GENERALLY were not counted but might have been in some cases. Good thread.

One of the US Navy's longest serving ships was a razee. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Independence_(1814)