I really, really hate to do this, but I really, really hate inconsistency more, so I have to.

Grit. (You are not prevented from moving while you are engaged by only 1 squadron.)

Heavy . (You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving.)

If my squadron is at range 1 from an enemy squadron, and an enemy squadron with HEAVY, can it move away? I have to say yes, I can move away, since HEAVY does not prevent engaged squadrons from moving.

This is answered by the FAQ:

Q: Is a squadron with grit prevented from moving while engaged with two squadrons, one with heavy and one without heavy?

A: Yes

I really, really hate to do this, but I really, really hate inconsistency more, so I have to.

Grit. (You are not prevented from moving while you are engaged by only 1 squadron.)

Heavy . (You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving.)

If my squadron is at range 1 from an enemy squadron, and an enemy squadron with HEAVY, can it move away? I have to say yes, I can move away, since HEAVY does not prevent engaged squadrons from moving.

Grit no longer applies because you are engaged by two squadrons. Grit doesn't check/care if squadrons are Heavy. It cares how many there are. Hence the ruling in the FAQ.

Didn't know it was in the FAQ. Thanks for the heads-up.

This is very poor for consistency. Still not as bad as Attack Wing, but between this and the Tractor Beam ruling, I am rather unhappy.

Seriously?

Didn't know it was in the FAQ. Thanks for the heads-up.

This is very poor for consistency. Still not as bad as Attack Wing, but between this and the Tractor Beam ruling, I am rather unhappy.

Seriously?

I'm with Green Knight on this one. I don't understand why you feel it's poor consistency. Grit specifically states that you are not prevented from moving when engaged by only one squadron. If you're engaged by two or more squadrons, Grit does absolutely nothing, even if both of those squadrons are Heavy. In that case, you'd still be able to move (and attack ships!) due to both engaging squadrons being Heavy. If you're engaged by two squadrons and one is Heavy and one is not, Grit has been turned off and the non-Heavy squadron keeps you stuck in place.

Short version: Grit does not read "you get to ignore one squadron of your choice that is engaging you."

If a HEAVY squadron can't be the reason you're forced to attack a squadron, why can it be the reason you're prevented from moving? The wording on HEAVY is the same for both conditions.

Things like this are why I'm not in Game Design anymore.

If a HEAVY squadron can't be the reason you're forced to attack a squadron, why can it be the reason you're prevented from moving? The wording on HEAVY is the same for both conditions.

Good question!

If a HEAVY squadron can't be the reason you're forced to attack a squadron, why can it be the reason you're prevented from moving? The wording on HEAVY is the same for both conditions.

I thought the same thing about it being the same reason.

If a HEAVY squadron can't be the reason you're forced to attack a squadron, why can it be the reason you're prevented from moving? The wording on HEAVY is the same for both conditions.

I thought the same thing about it being the same reason.

The more I thin about it, the weirder it sounds:

1. All squads with or without Grit, can ignore Heavy squads

2. A squad WITH Grit can ignore a single non-heavy squad (others can't)

3. But one "normal" squad and one heavy squad invalidates Grit?

There might be a game balance issue hidden in here, but it does sound a bit contrived now that I think on it.

The Squadron with Heavy isn't what's preventing you from moving, the Squadron without Heavy is.

There is no other way for Grit to function without being errata'd.

The Squadron with Heavy isn't what's preventing you from moving, the Squadron without Heavy is.

There is no other way for Grit to function without being errata'd.

Yeah, I get that.

It's just kind of sad that Grit is negated by a squadron that it would normally just ignore... but now there is another squadron it could also normally ignore... and then it's stop.

Seems contrary to the thinking behind the Instigator ruling - here the intent of the Heavy keyword was given great weight.

I thought the idea is that only one squadron isn't enough to prevent the Grit squadron from doing as it wishes.

With the additional even if Heavy the non-Heavy squadron now has enough help/traffic/cover/targeting assistance that it can negate the Grit squad's tactics and keep it locked down. It is a simple representation of numerical advantage out doing superior piloting or a more maneuverable and faster vessel.

Maybe to get by even a Heavy squadron you have to slow down enough for another squadron to outpace you. The Heavy might force a course choice that is easily read and moved to counter. The Heavy squadron must still shoot at the squadron with Grit (assuming it is a non-Heavy.) The Heavy doesn't ignore the Grit squadron.

The Squadron with Heavy isn't what's preventing you from moving, the Squadron without Heavy is.

There is no other way for Grit to function without being errata'd.

Compare this to the recent ruling on Instigator. It was ruled that the HEAVY fighter could not be the reason you were required to attack squadrons. But for GRIT a HEAVY fighter can be the reason you're not allowed to move.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your position. I argued it in the Instigator thread, and I think it is correct. But the Official Word says otherwise. I'm trying to understand why it's one way here, and another way there. Inconsistency troubles me.

The Squadron with Heavy isn't what's preventing you from moving, the Squadron without Heavy is.

There is no other way for Grit to function without being errata'd.

Compare this to the recent ruling on Instigator. It was ruled that the HEAVY fighter could not be the reason you were required to attack squadrons. But for GRIT a HEAVY fighter can be the reason you're not allowed to move.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your position. I argued it in the Instigator thread, and I think it is correct. But the Official Word says otherwise. I'm trying to understand why it's one way here, and another way there. Inconsistency troubles me.

The FAQ ruling on Grit was one of the main points for my position in on the Instigator debate. But, a ruling is a ruling, and so we must abide.

Right. I didn't realize it was in the FAQ when I posted.

Now, I'm just worrying about the inconsistency. I was burned pretty bad by Attack Wing, and while Armada would have to get out a really big shovel and start digging, fast, in order to get that bad, ruling that words mean one thing here, and the same words mean another thing there was the first part of their slide into insanity.

Actually, that's not true. The first part was when ships were assigned points by summing their primary stats and multiplying by two. No concession made for maneuverability, upgrade slots, firing arcs, intrinsic abilities, or any other **** thing.

Inconsistency was the second thing.

In the case of the Instigator you have two things that could never force you to not attack ships, when combined they still can't create that circumstance. That was the ruling on that subject, you don't get an ability in tandem that niether would have had under normal circumstances.

In this case you have one thing that can't prevent you from moving combined with another thing that can prevent just that. The former is only rendering the keyword that was preventing the later from doing what it normally does inactive.

There really isn't an inconsistency there. If you were worried about inconsistency then you should be concerned if Grit was to work any other way, as then it would be inconsistent with what the ability actually says.

Once you are engaged with more then 1 Squadron Grit no longer applies.

There really isn't an inconsistency there. If you were worried about inconsistency then you should be concerned if Grit was to work any other way, as then it would be inconsistent with what the ability actually says.

Once you are engaged with more then 1 Squadron Grit no longer applies.

This is very similar to what I said above. Grit is turned off the moment you're engaged by two squadrons. Period. Doesn't matter whether they're Heavy or not (although if all squadrons engaging you are Heavy then you can do whatever you please due to them being Heavy, but not due to Grit). The FAQ merely clarifies that the Grit ability works as it is written and not as people sometimes misremember it (which is "you get to ignore one squadron you're engaged with", which is wrong).

The Instigator FAQ is another matter entirely and you could make a cogent argument for or against FFG's ruling, but the Grit ruling doesn't require any rearrangement or interpretation of the rules. It merely reminds you to apply the rule exactly as it is written on the card.

The Squadron with Heavy isn't what's preventing you from moving, the Squadron without Heavy is.

There is no other way for Grit to function without being errata'd.

this was one of the main reasons I thought the Instigator worked with heavys

Yeah, I get that.

It's just kind of sad that Grit is negated by a squadron that it would normally just ignore... but now there is another squadron it could also normally ignore... and then it's stop.

Seems contrary to the thinking behind the Instigator ruling - here the intent of the Heavy keyword was given great weight.

In the case of the Instigator you have two things that could never force you to not attack ships, when combined they still can't create that circumstance. That was the ruling on that subject, you don't get an ability in tandem that niether would have had under normal circumstances.

In this case you have one thing that can't prevent you from moving combined with another thing that can prevent just that. The former is only rendering the keyword that was preventing the later from doing what it normally does inactive.

There really isn't an inconsistency there. If you were worried about inconsistency then you should be concerned if Grit was to work any other way, as then it would be inconsistent with what the ability actually says.

Once you are engaged with more then 1 Squadron Grit no longer applies.

There really isn't an inconsistency there. If you were worried about inconsistency then you should be concerned if Grit was to work any other way, as then it would be inconsistent with what the ability actually says.

Once you are engaged with more then 1 Squadron Grit no longer applies.

This is very similar to what I said above. Grit is turned off the moment you're engaged by two squadrons. Period. Doesn't matter whether they're Heavy or not (although if all squadrons engaging you are Heavy then you can do whatever you please due to them being Heavy, but not due to Grit). The FAQ merely clarifies that the Grit ability works as it is written and not as people sometimes misremember it (which is "you get to ignore one squadron you're engaged with", which is wrong).

The Instigator FAQ is another matter entirely and you could make a cogent argument for or against FFG's ruling, but the Grit ruling doesn't require any rearrangement or interpretation of the rules. It merely reminds you to apply the rule exactly as it is written on the card.

You two make some good points. This may not be as inconsistent as it seems at first.

I really don't get the issue here. . . You are still engaged with Heavy units. . . They get to count for Swarm so why would they not get to count for Grit?

I thought the heavy ship would not affect GRIT at first, but the golden rule with this game seems is that we need to follow cards as literally as possible. Heavy says you do not prevent a squadron your engaged with from moving, not that you don't engage. I think it's a load of crap but that's the word for word breakdown. Funny thing, two squadrons with heavy will also negate Grit. Doesn't matter because you can move normally, but that's the wording on the card.

Now I have a semi on topic question...

Xwings and escort, multiples of em, full on engage an enemy "swarm". The enemy has Intel. Your xwings are heavy. Your ships are within range of enemy bombers. During squad phase... Are those bombers locked to attack the xwing even if they are heavy BECAUSE they still have escort and are TECHNICALLY engaged? Or do they still get to shoot your ship?

Now I have a semi on topic question...

Xwings and escort, multiples of em, full on engage an enemy "swarm". The enemy has Intel. Your xwings are heavy. Your ships are within range of enemy bombers. During squad phase... Are those bombers locked to attack the xwing even if they are heavy BECAUSE they still have escort and are TECHNICALLY engaged? Or do they still get to shoot your ship?

Escort only kicks in if the enemy is choosing to attack squadrons. Provided the enemy is only engaged by Heavy squadrons, he can choose to attack ships instead.

PLEASE NOTE that Heavy does not stop you from engaging enemy squadrons. It just means that engaging them does not prevent them from moving or attacking like normal. This is important for rules like Grit and Swarm.

So to answer your question, the bombers still get to shoot your ship.