So, I'm currently building a Screed fleet with an ISD-II leading the charge. It's got an empty Ion Cannon upgrade slot - and the card Ion Cannon Batteries stands out as one I've never used before. My eye has always been drawn to the much more glamorous Overload Pulse, but the ICBs are cheaper by 3 points, and also have a cool ability.

Their critical effect is to allow me to choose one of my opponent's command tokens and discard it. If he doesn't have any tokens, then it does one extra point of damage to the shields on the defending hull zone.

Given that critical effects are resolved before normal damage is applied, this is a surprisingly useful feature - getting an extra damage out of a critical effect is nothing to be sniffed at, especially given that it will be immune to defense tokens.

Plus, being able to strip command tokens - especially in conjunction with, say, a Tractor Beam, could limit my opponent a great deal.

What are your thoughts on and experiences with the Ion Cannon Batteries? Are they worthy of filling that useful Ion Cannon slot?

I have a question on Ion Canon Batteries. I agree that the crit effect applies before damages are calculated thus allowing you to potentially chose one of your opponent's defense token and discard it.

However, aren't defense token declared before?

Hence my question: if my opponent declare a Brace Token which I then force him to discard using the Ion Batteries, does the Brace effect still applies in the current damage phase?

My anwser would be Yes because you declared the Brace Token before. Now, for the next round my opponent will start with one less Brace token that is for sure but for the current damage phase he can still benefit from the Brace effect.

I have a question on Ion Canon Batteries...

The Ion Cannon Batteries I mentioned in my post discard Command tokens, rather than defense tokens.

Overload Pulse, on the other hand, is more relevant to your question. Overload Pulse forces your opponent to exhaust (turn to red) all of their Defense tokens, but this happens AFTER he uses them in that specific attack, as Critical effects are resolved after Defense tokens are spent. So, if you are hit by an Overload Pulse, it's in your interests to spend as many of your Green Defense tokens as you can to mitigate the damage from that attack, because they're all about to be turned Red anyway.

I have a question on Ion Canon Batteries. I agree that the crit effect applies before damages are calculated thus allowing you to potentially chose one of your opponent's defense token and discard it.

However, aren't defense token declared before?

Hence my question: if my opponent declare a Brace Token which I then force him to discard using the Ion Batteries, does the Brace effect still applies in the current damage phase?

My anwser would be Yes because you declared the Brace Token before. Now, for the next round my opponent will start with one less Brace token that is for sure but for the current damage phase he can still benefit from the Brace effect.

Ion canon batteries effect strips a command token not a defense token.

If you are thinking NK-7's effect, critical effects comes after the defense tokens have been spent. So just like overload pulse, the discard effect happens AFTER you have declared which tokens you have spent.

To answer the original post, I think this upgrade has its place, but i generally much prefer SW-7 Ion Canons as they pretty much gurantee your ISD2 is doing a minimum 4 dmg from its front arc. Its also the same cost.

I have a question on Ion Canon Batteries. I agree that the crit effect applies before damages are calculated thus allowing you to potentially chose one of your opponent's defense token and discard it.

However, aren't defense token declared before?

Hence my question: if my opponent declare a Brace Token which I then force him to discard using the Ion Batteries, does the Brace effect still applies in the current damage phase?

My anwser would be Yes because you declared the Brace Token before. Now, for the next round my opponent will start with one less Brace token that is for sure but for the current damage phase he can still benefit from the Brace effect.

you're thinking of nk7s, the brace would still be applied

Don't forget leading shots. spending 1 blue to reroll any you want can be really nice

I'm not terribly impressed with the Ion Cannon Batteries. The extra damage is nice (as is zapping command tokens in the right circumstances) but there are better ion cannon upgrades.

If you're building for a Screed ISD-II, I'd give strong consideration to the Overload Pulse + Heavy Turbolaser Turrets combination. When most players see a blue crit coming from Overload Pulse they (wisely) use up as many defense tokens as possible to get as much value from them as they can before they're flipped to red. Heavy Turbolaser Turrets punishes you for doing this so long as it includes the best defensive token, the Brace. Then all the tokens get exhausted and your other ships can hopefully take advantage of those exhausted defense tokens in subsequent attacks.

I'm not terribly impressed with the Ion Cannon Batteries. The extra damage is nice (as is zapping command tokens in the right circumstances) but there are better ion cannon upgrades.

If you're building for a Screed ISD-II, I'd give strong consideration to the Overload Pulse + Heavy Turbolaser Turrets combination. When most players see a blue crit coming from Overload Pulse they (wisely) use up as many defense tokens as possible to get as much value from them as they can before they're flipped to red. Heavy Turbolaser Turrets punishes you for doing this so long as it includes the best defensive token, the Brace. Then all the tokens get exhausted and your other ships can hopefully take advantage of those exhausted defense tokens in subsequent attacks.

Kind of want to try this now...

Taking away a command token sounds great, however so far I have not made any use of it and was only getting one add shield damage out of it. Once at mid range (where you have to be to use those batteries) people tend to not generate tokens a lot but spend commands as they come in. Extra tokens (from Tarkin, Raymus) are spent together with a matching command 9/10 times. So the only real catch is a ship under garm that somehow did not manage to spent all tokens in one activation, a wulffi ship or something like that.

On an ISD, almost any other ion upgrade beats the ICBs, like one said go with leading shots on that beast..

Don't forget leading shots. spending 1 blue to reroll any you want can be really nice

Frankly I think that this upgrade is very strong on the ISD. It can protect against too many accuracies, but also too many blanks.

I think their main use is to make tractor beams a little more effective by banishing a NAV token. Also good for disrupting enemies who rely on Engine Techs for extra movement. The extra damage is nice but is a weaker version of the APT for 1 more point.

A quick rule clarification if I may....

If an Ion Cannon Battery volley hits a ship with no command tokens and no shields does the 1 extra shield damage transfer to the target ship's hull?

No, it does not. As it is not one Damage, it is "Loses one Shield instead".

You would, of course, in this situation, be best served by taking the Standard Critical Effect instead.

I think their main use is to make tractor beams a little more effective by banishing a NAV token.

Probably preferably not on the same ship, though: the tractor beam takes effect at activation, before the ICB can trigger for the round.

The extra damage is nice but is a weaker version of the APT for 1 more point.

Nah, same price. And yes, weaker, but balanced by increased range and the primary effect.

Remember that the extra damage to the shield or the loss of a command token happens before any damage are resolved from the attack.

They might seem unimpressive, but I find them quite decent, and after all it's a support upgrade rather than a damage upgrade (which is more linked to the Ordnance upgrade).

Smaller ships are unlikely to store many tokens, and if they do it's because they have a plan for them (or it's because they missed their tempo and end up not having to use it), so smaller ships are likely to lose an extra shield which is quite interesting.

Larger ships are likely to count on banking different tokens for later use, in order to have multiple orders going on and have excess shielding, and you can really cripple their strategy.

Because you choose and discard a command token, you can effectively debuff your opponent's strategy.

IT's not a bad upgrade, but it's not a game changer, and its point cost shows that.

So, if you are using Screed:

1. He actually has strong synergy with red dice. If you roll blanks, it allows you to flip other dice to crits. If you roll many blanks, you drop one and add a crit. If you need to trigger a blue crit effect, you can also drop a red blank to do this.
2. So when we look at the potential available upgrades in this light, we have:
   1. ICB - this is good because you can auto-trigger the crit effect, but is that crit effect good enough? It's 1 command token (minorly annoying) or 1 shield if they have them. What it does not do is anything to a ship with no command tokens and no shields.
   2. Leading Shots - this is terrible with Screed. You don't want effects that cause you to sacrifice dice to re-roll when you can already sacrifice dice to just flip something to a crit. This has anti-synergy with Screed and is wasted points.
   3. NK-7 Ion Cannons - pricey as hell, but discarding a defense token is great versus big ships. The problem here is that if you are facing mostly small or medium ships, it's wasted points compared to the effect.
   4. Overload Pulse - great because it exhausts defense tokens, bad because they can still use them first and the ISDII is your heavy hitter.
   5. SW-7 - you can eat your accuracy for damage, but with Screed, if you wanted this, you can just flip to damage discarding a blank.

So, in short, after looking at all of these... I'd probably take nothing. The points are probably better spent somewhere else. At most you get 1 damage, sometimes. With Screed, I'd much rather be putting APT/ACM somewhere, or taking the Needa / TRC combo.

I could see them being used with Tractor Beams to soft counter token heavy builds.

I could see them being used with Tractor Beams to soft counter token heavy builds.

The problem is the Tractor Beams trigger on activation of the ship, prior to the attack. If your opponent is hording Navigate tokens across his whole fleet it might pay off but there's not as much synergy there as you might think.

I could see them being used with Tractor Beams to soft counter token heavy builds.

The problem is the Tractor Beams trigger on activation of the ship, prior to the attack. If your opponent is hording Navigate tokens across his whole fleet it might pay off but there's not as much synergy there as you might think.

Indeed !

I've also found that synergy between cards to be relatively limited in general : there are some interesting effects but usually a large diminishing return on the combo that also makes the ships clunky.

Example : Dutch/Wedge combo costs 35 points for an extra 1 damage (2 blue dice) on a single squadron. Compared to 2 X-Wings + a Y-Wing doing more damage on average against squadrons (5 vs 4.5) and more damage against ships (2.5 vs 2).

Add in Yavaris and it makes the pair even less mobile, just to trigger 2 extra damage per turn on a single squadron or 1 or 2 squadrons...

I have only ever used them against an imperial player I know *NEVER* plays any commander other than Tarkin with defence liaisons. I don't usually tailor my fleet against a specific opponent, but in this case it was too funny, therefore was rude not to.

I could see them being used with Tractor Beams to soft counter token heavy builds.

The problem is the Tractor Beams trigger on activation of the ship, prior to the attack. If your opponent is hording Navigate tokens across his whole fleet it might pay off but there's not as much synergy there as you might think.

The other problem is that if the enemy fleet wants to stay at long range or is a side-mover, you are actually probably helping them if you use your tractor beams.

I find that they are very good only against fast moving fleets that want to close. Otherwise, they are frequently wasted points.

I'm not terribly impressed with the Ion Cannon Batteries. The extra damage is nice (as is zapping command tokens in the right circumstances) but there are better ion cannon upgrades.

If you're building for a Screed ISD-II, I'd give strong consideration to the Overload Pulse + Heavy Turbolaser Turrets combination. When most players see a blue crit coming from Overload Pulse they (wisely) use up as many defense tokens as possible to get as much value from them as they can before they're flipped to red. Heavy Turbolaser Turrets punishes you for doing this so long as it includes the best defensive token, the Brace. Then all the tokens get exhausted and your other ships can hopefully take advantage of those exhausted defense tokens in subsequent attacks.

This is a really good idea, and the first use for HTT that I've seen and really liked.

Kind of want to try this now...

Haha, apparently this combination hadn't occurred to many people because I was absolutely flooded with "like" notifications this morning (I logged in, saw 9 notifications and was like "wait, what?!?"). This combination occurred to me last week and I am also trying to get it to the table in a Screed or Vader fleet, maybe tonight.

I think HTTs get something of a bad reputation. In our most recent Store Championship there were ECMs all over the place (on ISD-IIs and numerous larger Rebel craft) to counter the expected XI7s + accuracy results that are common in Rebel fleets and on ISD-IIs. When ECMs are around in sufficient numbers, I think you're better off simply debuffing the Brace with HTTs, especially with your high-damage ships, than you are relying on XI7s. The Overload Pulse, however, makes the HTTs into something of a mean combo attack (especially with Gunnery Teams, where you can hypothetically zap two such ships in one turn) that is particularly useful against larger ships, where it flips all 4 defense tokens.

The other problem is that if the enemy fleet wants to stay at long range or is a side-mover, you are actually probably helping them if you use your tractor beams.

I find that they are very good only against fast moving fleets that want to close. Otherwise, they are frequently wasted points.

It depends on how many you bring and how well you focus-fire them. You can separate a conga line with good concentrated Tractor Beam usage (by either slowing down the head ship enough to potentially cause collisions or slowing down the rear ship enough that it cannot keep up and gets separated from the pack), but a single Tractor Beam often won't make a meaningful difference. You are correct that you need to be careful as to when you use them. Just blindly zapping anything that's near you can result in you helping your opponent to decelerate once they're in shooting range, which is what they wanted to do anyways.

...but I'd prefer we don't really make this into a Tractor Beams thread if possible.

...but I'd prefer we don't really make this into a Tractor Beams thread if possible.

Even if this thread could take off, it could never get past that tractor beam!

I think HTTs get something of a bad reputation. In our most recent Store Championship there were ECMs all over the place (on ISD-IIs and numerous larger Rebel craft) to counter the expected XI7s + accuracy results that are common in Rebel fleets and on ISD-IIs. When ECMs are around in sufficient numbers, I think you're better off simply debuffing the Brace with HTTs, especially with your high-damage ships, than you are relying on XI7s. The Overload Pulse, however, makes the HTTs into something of a mean combo attack (especially with Gunnery Teams, where you can hypothetically zap two such ships in one turn) that is particularly useful against larger ships, where it flips all 4 defense tokens.

So, I'm mulling this over in my head, and there's a confusion I have, which is:

X-17s prevent any redirects from occurring. Therefore, your opponent is left with Brace as his primary defensive option at close-range - or not, depending on accuracies.

Heavy Turbolaser Turrets force your opponent to pick between Redirecting or Bracing at close-range.

In either case, Overload Pulse will exhaust all Defense tokens, turning them red.

So if I'm shot at with X-17s, I have to Brace regardless, using my Electronic Countermeasures, let's say, because whatever happens, I can't (effectively) Redirect any damage.

If I'm shot with HTTs, then I can choose to either Brace or Redirect, using my ECMs.

Either way, I'm only using one token, so I don't see what's better about HTTs and X-17s in this regard.

Am I missing something? I'm not saying what you've said is wrong, just... I'm struggling to see why it's so good compared to X-17s...

Even if this thread could take off, it could never get past that tractor beam!

Here, take every internets, ever, you have earned them you wonderful human being.

@Jhox : When you do the math, Heavy Turbolasers work a lot better on hulls without shields remaining, while XI7 works better when there are still shields up. You can force more damage on the naked hull especially with big rolls. So, if you have something to drill through shields first like squadrons, it's a good upgrade.