I love the VSD's. I consistently run a 4 VSD list in tournaments and place well in every tournament. The sheer number of hull that has to be chewed through is insane and if you stager them right they cover each other just fine. One generally isnt in the fight at all as its placed first then you opponent places on the other side of the map to avoid it but you still have 3 more he has to deal with. Oddly it benefits you as well..with one not in the fight your opponent will almost never table you and if by chance he turns to get away from your other 3 you have placed he runs right into your 1 charging him. Again i find teh VSD a fun ship to play. Like it was said though you have to understand how to use its weakness to your advantage.

I love the VSD's. I consistently run a 4 VSD list in tournaments and place well in every tournament. The sheer number of hull that has to be chewed through is insane and if you stager them right they cover each other just fine. One generally isnt in the fight at all as its placed first then you opponent places on the other side of the map to avoid it but you still have 3 more he has to deal with. Oddly it benefits you as well..with one not in the fight your opponent will almost never table you and if by chance he turns to get away from your other 3 you have placed he runs right into your 1 charging him. Again i find teh VSD a fun ship to play. Like it was said though you have to understand how to use its weakness to your advantage.

Out of curiosity, how do you stagger your VSDs ? I'm working on proper deployment for the Imperial fleet and I find that there is a sweet spot right outside the blue range, but I was curious to see your take on that.

I just want to be sure I'm not throwing 73 points away when I take a VSD in a list. The boogyman of Wave 2 is Ackbar... and when designing a list to counter a typical heavy-hitting Ackbar list, the VSD has serious liabilities. In fact, any VSDs going against a Home-One supported list will never use their brace.

So again, it comes down to what will your VSDs do against Accuracy and XI7 users.

If your opponent doesn't use them for whatever reason (which will be hard since every ship in the game except Raiders, GSDs, and CR-90Bs) can use XI7 or H9s... then we can think about using VSDs competitively.

But saying you can joust a long range works only to a point, since all Star Destroyers are designed to close with their enemy. And for whatever size class your ship is, Ackbar can still give it more red dice than you can shoot out of your front arc.

Against Ackbar conga line + Home One, I think it's fair to say that in most circumstances you shouldn't be running only VSDs and you should be using them with a commander who benefits them if you do bring them (Motti all day long is my vote). They should be supporting whatever ships you have that can disrupt the conga line - ISDs and/or Gladiators and/or bomber blobs can do the trick. Ideally the VSD exists as more of a deterrent to "catch" the conga line if it turns inward. In my experience the conga line would rather turn inward so it can keep blasting away at you but avoiding the front arcs and giving itself lots of room to maneuver. Turning outwards usually keeps them (for at least a turn) in your front arcs and with less room to maneuver for fear of sailing off the table.

I'll also restate that Tractor Beams in sufficient quantities can really mess with a conga line and VSDs love Tractor Beams when you're not building them as dedicated carriers. You need to give consideration to which ships are best zapped in order to cause logjams and other difficulties, but if sufficiently focus-slowed you can cause some problems. An ISD accompanying your fleet helps here to zap the occasional MC80.

I feel like you're underestimating the durability of a Victory-class for its cost. I grant that losing access to the Brace is frustrating, but you still have 8 hull points (10 with Motti, who is best at running them in my opinion) and 10 total shields. If you're sailing into the shooting gallery, you'll want to be Engineering constantly to shift shields towards your front arc (against XI7s anyways) until they're exhausted and then regenerating them from there on out. That's a lot of beef to get through for ships that are throwing out an average of 4 damage a turn. The Brace will save you 2-3 damage per turn, but the cheapest way you're getting the ECMs to keep your Brace safe is on a 127 point ISD-II. Let's be honest and admit that ISD-II will also have Gunnery Teams and XI7s/Heavy Turbolaser Turrets which brings it to 140 points. That's almost twice the investment of a lightly-upgraded VSD-I.

The last point is simply returning to the original basic argument of VSDs are cost-effective carriers. About the only way to run only-VSD fleets nowadays is with a substantial squadron presence and Rhymerballs properly supported can do a number on Ackbar fleets, who are often very squadron-light and whose flak dice are often insufficient to handle a mob of 5HP or 6HP bombers.

I just want to be sure I'm not throwing 73 points away when I take a VSD in a list. The boogyman of Wave 2 is Ackbar... and when designing a list to counter a typical heavy-hitting Ackbar list, the VSD has serious liabilities. In fact, any VSDs going against a Home-One supported list will never use their brace.

So again, it comes down to what will your VSDs do against Accuracy and XI7 users.

If your opponent doesn't use them for whatever reason (which will be hard since every ship in the game except Raiders, GSDs, and CR-90Bs) can use XI7 or H9s... then we can think about using VSDs competitively.

But saying you can joust a long range works only to a point, since all Star Destroyers are designed to close with their enemy. And for whatever size class your ship is, Ackbar can still give it more red dice than you can shoot out of your front arc.

Very true, but the point raised that you will never see your brace used against a typical home one/ackbar list is true for any other capital ship as well, except for the ISD-II with the go-to def retrofit. And same goes for the abundancy of Xi7s at the moment, every other imperial ship is suffering from this in a similar way a VSD does.

For the moment and till wave 3 is announced, you have to accept that a typical rebel list is able to bring more long range firepower to the field than you, and from a more convenient arc. Shock, we imperials cannot simply blast everything with our darn shiny star destroyers anymore.

But a single VSD-I can boss a decent rhymerball around, which is effectively giving it a greater range than red dice. In fact, its the most cost effective way to toss squadrons at someone, and the carrier role somewhat counters the lack of manouverability since you dont have to keep things in tiny arcs, and helps with command orders as you mostly will need squadron and engineering, may be a turn 1 nav command for the token.

Heaviest problem I have is a mental one, seeing our wave 1 bosskilla-battleship with all sort of brizzling upgrades being reduced to a stripped down carrier that goes boom in any real firefight. I miss those days, but my VSD is accepting his carrier role to avoid early retirement.

Moffzen,

It really depends on what you go against and what your mission is. I tend to have 1 go straight up the middle and then have the two side on pointed at a slight angle outwards from the center one. With running 8 tie fighters i sometimes get the deployment edge over my opponent so then i can really get my VSD's put right where they need to be. Like i said before though it really depends on the mission taken how you set things up. I generally take Contested outpost, Minefield and Advanced gunnery.

Recently I came back to my 2 VSD-II 1 ISD-II list with six TIEs and a mix of upgrades... against Ackbar even! And they did well! Granted I think the player was new, and I didn't give him the chance to concentrate fire, but it's helped my opinion on VSDs some that they won't wither and die instantly any time Ackbar shows up.

I think what gets me the most about Ackbar is that you can't take a general all-comers list against him. However, a good amount of points have to be spent on knocking VSDs out as easily as that, and they don't have easy access to re-rolls at red range. Only Vader does that, and he's on our side.

3 VSD 1 + Motti + wing of ties/bombers = fun

My local meta is literally two big nasties and whatever they have left over in points...I don't think a Victory has caught the table in awhile around there.

So I'ma pulla Thrawn.

The most important thing about the VSD is that it is significantly cheaper than the ISD, so if you are like me and want a significant focus on squadrons + an ISD-II as the flagship, you simply don't have the points to include a second ISD. The ISD can be twenty times as powerful stat-wise, if you don't have enough points to include it the VSD will still be better.

3 VSD 1 + Motti + wing of ties/bombers = fun

My local meta is literally two big nasties and whatever they have left over in points...I don't think a Victory has caught the table in awhile around there.

So I'ma pulla Thrawn.

I'm testing out a 3 VSD/Bomber Swarm list with Tarkin. Squadron tokens every round eliminates the need for Expanded Hangars, freeing up the slot for Boosted Comms. And Ruthless Strategists means you can avoiding sinking points into brittle TIE Fighters. Sure, the VSDs may be slow. But if they're pushing eight bombers around the board, you're going to take some damage. And even if you blow all of the bombers up, that's less than 100 points. They'll take more than 100 points with them before they die.

3 VSD 1 + Motti + wing of ties/bombers = fun

My local meta is literally two big nasties and whatever they have left over in points...I don't think a Victory has caught the table in awhile around there.

So I'ma pulla Thrawn.

I'm testing out a 3 VSD/Bomber Swarm list with Tarkin. Squadron tokens every round eliminates the need for Expanded Hangars, freeing up the slot for Boosted Comms. And Ruthless Strategists means you can avoiding sinking points into brittle TIE Fighters. Sure, the VSDs may be slow. But if they're pushing eight bombers around the board, you're going to take some damage. And even if you blow all of the bombers up, that's less than 100 points. They'll take more than 100 points with them before they die.

I'm gonna try that out down the line, I'm taking what I own currently to a comp and going from there.

I to like the huge fleet, and whilst I'm down with the mega xl pizza slice...I love the Victory far far more.

I'm cozying up to the VSD. I really didn't play at all until a few weeks ago. Just a few intro games with my friends. It can serve well as a support to an ISD. They work well in multiples (three or four) as the mainstay. They can even work as a flagship, though are probably better as a carrier flagship with GSDs and Raiders running around. And having them operate as a carrier for a bomber group sort of nullifies their weakness. Sure, your CR90 can zip around them. . .but can it eat four black dice to the face, one at a time, for two or three turns?

I'm cozying up to the VSD. I really didn't play at all until a few weeks ago. Just a few intro games with my friends. It can serve well as a support to an ISD. They work well in multiples (three or four) as the mainstay. They can even work as a flagship, though are probably better as a carrier flagship with GSDs and Raiders running around. And having them operate as a carrier for a bomber group sort of nullifies their weakness. Sure, your CR90 can zip around them. . .but can it eat four black dice to the face, one at a time, for two or three turns?

Run a conga line and watch the hilarity insure.

I love the VSD's. I consistently run a 4 VSD list in tournaments and place well in every tournament.

Out of curiosity (and potential play; though I only own 1 VSD right now) what is your list? Are they VSD-1s, and are they upgraded at all? Motti as the Commander for 40 hull?

Funnily enough, the VSDs are starting to become real MVPs in my Wave 2 battles ! Last game it destroyed 2 Corvettes in a turn (granted, it was a Riekaan list where the death of the Corvette still allowed it to fight back, but that's still a decent performance from the humble old VSD I find !).

I postulate that they are going to get even more action than before : Due to the low maneuvrability of ISDs (yes !) due to their large base, and the fact that large ships offer a clear activation disadvantage, I find that ISDs are starting to get quite easy to avoid, especially for smaller ships. So having the VSDs as catchers for stuff that avoids the ISDs usually makes them see more action than one might predict.

EDIT : Besides, players would rather take their chances against a VSD than against an ISD, which helps predict enemy movements.

From a rebel player point of view:

I want to isolate your fleet one ship at a time and kill you piecemeal (even with my gunnery team AFmk2). So although a vic is a very points efficient carrier, it's immobility places a weakness in you fleet that I can exploit. So I will be looking to draw out your faster elements and then hit the components in isolation.

From a rebel player point of view:

I want to isolate your fleet one ship at a time and kill you piecemeal (even with my gunnery team AFmk2). So although a vic is a very points efficient carrier, it's immobility places a weakness in you fleet that I can exploit. So I will be looking to draw out your faster elements and then hit the components in isolation.

Typical and efficient Rebel bait Although, nothing easier to "olé" and let live for the rest of the game without fearing a front arc than an ISD moving at Speed 3, then switch back on the Victory.

That said, if the Imperial fleet is flown in concert, then it becomes a bigger chore to isolate

From a rebel player point of view:

I want to isolate your fleet one ship at a time and kill you piecemeal (even with my gunnery team AFmk2). So although a vic is a very points efficient carrier, it's immobility places a weakness in you fleet that I can exploit. So I will be looking to draw out your faster elements and then hit the components in isolation.

This is exactly the reason I avoided buying the ISD.

I rarely fly my ISD at Speed 3 for that issue. It may bank a token to leap up at the endgame when I'm in Pursuit rather than Assault... But my IVV list is usually Speed 2, 2, 1, with the 1 being my Admiral so he hangs back for a turn or two.

I would never use any of the "officer" class.

They are crutches. Points better spent elsewhere.

Can't say I agree with this, I personally find officer upgrades quite useful; not as useful as some other upgrades, but some are definitely worth having.

I *think* he was referring specifically to the Navigation Officer, Engineering Captain, Tactical Expert and Wing Commander upgrades. If that's the case, then I agree - for me, the heart of the game is picking your orders in advance to match with your strategy, and the ability to change those orders is a bit like turreted ships in X-Wing - I've always felt X-Wing was about flying tight and hard to get your enemy in your crosshairs and avoid his - but turrets contradict that element.

It's why I think the ISD title Relentless is so good - it adds flexibility to the vessel in exactly the spirit of the game. The ability to change orders after you've picked them feels against the spirit of the game, at least for me.

However, some of the other officer upgrades are great. Captain Needa is fantastic fun, and Veteran Captain is another great example of a simple increase in adaptability that feels very "thematic".

X-Wing is my primary game and I wouldn't dream of playing a list that didn't have at least a little bit of cowbell turrets. You have a choice: embrace all your options or be brushed aside. Swimming upstream is not a winning strategy.

From a rebel player point of view:

I want to isolate your fleet one ship at a time and kill you piecemeal (even with my gunnery team AFmk2). So although a vic is a very points efficient carrier, it's immobility places a weakness in you fleet that I can exploit. So I will be looking to draw out your faster elements and then hit the components in isolation.

And if the Imperial player lets you bait them like that, they don't deserve the win. A good Imperial player is going to know that the VSD is slow and clunky. It cannot respond to fast-moving threats. That's why you never leave it by itself. Ever.

Taking the VSD as a dedicated carrier means one of three things - you're taking multiple Vics with a LOT of fighters/bombers, you're using it to support a gun-toting ISD, or it's your flagship and you're spending your points on GSDs and RDRs.

Option one, you're not going to isolate any ships. Three VSD carriers are probably going to have Boosted Comms, meaning their threat range is far beyond that of your red dice. They'll probably castle up somewhere and let the bombers do the heavy lifting, maybe trading shots against you at Long range. There's no reason to advance and allow yourself to be drawn out. The fast bait ships are either going to stay at range with a handful of red dice and plink shields, or increase their threat level by making a fast flanking maneuver. If it's the latter, I wouldn't even bother to turn and face them. The bombers are faster, and can destroy CR90s and MC30cs pretty quickly. The AFs would be the bigger threat, so with good deployment and decent maneuvering, the VSDs should be able to keep them from flanking.

Option two, that'll be a tough thing to isolate. If it's commanding squadrons so an up-gunned ISD doesn't have to, it's going to be hiding right behind Big Brother. AFs are not fast enough to dodge around an ISDs front arc without suffering a lot of damage, and if you're focusing your efforts to kill the VSD, you're ignore the much more powerful ISD. However, the ISD will take longer to kill and the VSD will be throwing it's own respectable battery dice and squadrons at you. Again, there is no reason to separate the two and allow either to be isolated.

Option three, I probably have more ships than you in this scenario. If a VSD is my flagship, the rest of the fleet is likely GSDs and RDRs, so the strategy would be flipped. The VSD would probably be the bait, because its lack of speed and its clunkiness mean it's a tempting target. So if you rush in to kill it, then I'm the one flanking and isolating with my faster ships.

I'm not saying I'd be guaranteed victory in these scenarios. I'm just arguing that the VSD is not an easy thing to isolate and kill if the admiral knows how to use it. Proper deployment and early maneuvering will make it very difficult to exploit the weakness of the VSD, its lack of maneuverability. But combined with squadrons and more maneuverable ships, it is a cost-efficient anvil that can put out very respectable damage and suffer a lot in return. Bear in mind, the VSD has the same hull and almost as many shields at the Rebels' toughest ship. And as a dedicated carrier with Boosted Comms, it doesn't have to move.

I offered up my ISD as bait. And ALWAYS run the carrier Vic behind. You make take my ISD, but you're gonna pay for it hard.

Just had a store champs where top 4 had vsds. The 1st placer only had 2 and a gsd!

I was ready to write off the VSD, but managed to use it to great effect in my local tournament this weekend. A VSD-1 acted in the role described above as a gunship escort to my ISD-1. In two games I let it run ahead of my fleet (through activations, not speed!) and it soaked up a pounding like a champ. This let the ISD-1 and GSDs get in position and beat the stuffing out of the opponent's big ship in return.

Due to lucky placement and first player, it pretty much single handedly wrecked a pimped out ISD-2. With 3 reds and 3 blacks out of the front arc, you can't afford to ignore the flying piñata!

Victory SD OP !

I'm probably going to run one (maybe 2 !) in the store champ next week.

Mine see heavy use as starfighter herders, ontop of the black dice they toss at close range...I think they are pretty solid.