Many people have doubts about the viability of the VSD, I or II variety dismissing it as a carrier at best. I have a different viewpoint, especially when you add in the Navigation Officer.

A primary complaint is the VSD's lack of mobility, but that little 6 point officer can greatly change that problem, allowing you to select a navigate command when needed to gain an extra yaw.

Doing this we can now maneuver as well as most other ships of the same size.

Taking this a stage further, we can add in the Q7 Tractor Beams and our VSD can now hunt targets that may otherwise have outpaced her.

Gun for gun she is also punching top of her class.

I am putting this list to the test, but I'm interested in other peoples take on the VSD now.

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 392/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Minefields

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Navigation Officer ( 6 points)
- Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points)
- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
- Navigation Officer ( 6 points)
- Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points)
- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)
- Relentless ( 3 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- SW 7 Ion Batteries ( 5 points)

1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)
3 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 24 points)

Even used as a carrier, it's got plenty of hull and dice at it's disposal. Just because other ships turn better, doesn't mean it's obsolete.

I would never use any of the "officer" class.

They are crutches. Points better spent elsewhere.

VSD viability depends on how well it can answer opponents with easy accuracy access and XI7s.

My current estimation is: not well. Best hope your opponent is tired of using Ackbar and Home One to win all the time and presents you with a list that you can stand a chance beating.

I would never use any of the "officer" class.

They are crutches. Points better spent elsewhere.

Can't say I agree with this, I personally find officer upgrades quite useful; not as useful as some other upgrades, but some are definitely worth having.

I would never use any of the "officer" class.

They are crutches. Points better spent elsewhere.

Can't say I agree with this, I personally find officer upgrades quite useful; not as useful as some other upgrades, but some are definitely worth having.

I *think* he was referring specifically to the Navigation Officer, Engineering Captain, Tactical Expert and Wing Commander upgrades. If that's the case, then I agree - for me, the heart of the game is picking your orders in advance to match with your strategy, and the ability to change those orders is a bit like turreted ships in X-Wing - I've always felt X-Wing was about flying tight and hard to get your enemy in your crosshairs and avoid his - but turrets contradict that element.

It's why I think the ISD title Relentless is so good - it adds flexibility to the vessel in exactly the spirit of the game. The ability to change orders after you've picked them feels against the spirit of the game, at least for me.

However, some of the other officer upgrades are great. Captain Needa is fantastic fun, and Veteran Captain is another great example of a simple increase in adaptability that feels very "thematic".

Doing this we can now maneuver as well as most other ships of the same size.

This is the issue with the Victory class - you're incorrect that it can ever turn as well as other ships. Because, to get that manoeuvrability, even without the additional 6-point spend on an officer - which I feel is a waste, since if I want Navigation every turn, just I will pick that; if I don't, then I place the emphasis on myself to plan my orders appropriately - but in any case, the point is that you're using a Command dial to get that extra click of Yaw, to which other ships have free access whilst getting full use of the rest of their commands.

The fact is, the ISD is more manoeuvrable than the VSD, even whilst spamming Repair orders every turn. The Assault Frigate Mark 2 is more manoeuvrable whilst getting an extra die from Concentrate Fire, every turn. If the only way to keep the VSD in the fight in terms of its firing arcs is to remove its ability to use other orders (such as the extremely valuable Repair order) then it's still doing worse than other ships in the heat of combat.

IF I elect to use a Navigate command for my ISD, I get an extra click of Yaw - meaning I'm more manoeuvrable than a VSD that's throwing everything it has into turning, and that is a brutal advantage to have. Indeed, a Speed-2 ISD with a Navigate command can turn almost as well as a CR90 at the same speed - the VSD is less fortunate.

This is the heart of the matter, for me - to get the VSD to the point that it can keep up with any other vessel in the game, you have to limit yourself in lots of other ways, and at that point, I'd rather just take the equivalent points in Gladiators and Imperials - or even Raiders.

I would never use any of the "officer" class.

They are crutches. Points better spent elsewhere.

Can't say I agree with this, I personally find officer upgrades quite useful; not as useful as some other upgrades, but some are definitely worth having.

I *think* he was referring specifically to the Navigation Officer, Engineering Captain, Tactical Expert and Wing Commander upgrades. If that's the case, then I agree - for me, the heart of the game is picking your orders in advance to match with your strategy, and the ability to change those orders is a bit like turreted ships in X-Wing - I've always felt X-Wing was about flying tight and hard to get your enemy in your crosshairs and avoid his - but turrets contradict that element.

It's why I think the ISD title Relentless is so good - it adds flexibility to the vessel in exactly the spirit of the game. The ability to change orders after you've picked them feels against the spirit of the game, at least for me.

However, some of the other officer upgrades are great. Captain Needa is fantastic fun, and Veteran Captain is another great example of a simple increase in adaptability that feels very "thematic".

Ah! I get you now! Yes, sorry for that previous misunderstanding @mikemcann.

I would never use any of the "officer" class.

They are crutches. Points better spent elsewhere.

Can't say I agree with this, I personally find officer upgrades quite useful; not as useful as some other upgrades, but some are definitely worth having.

I *think* he was referring specifically to the Navigation Officer, Engineering Captain, Tactical Expert and Wing Commander upgrades. If that's the case, then I agree - for me, the heart of the game is picking your orders in advance to match with your strategy, and the ability to change those orders is a bit like turreted ships in X-Wing - I've always felt X-Wing was about flying tight and hard to get your enemy in your crosshairs and avoid his - but turrets contradict that element.

It's why I think the ISD title Relentless is so good - it adds flexibility to the vessel in exactly the spirit of the game. The ability to change orders after you've picked them feels against the spirit of the game, at least for me.

However, some of the other officer upgrades are great. Captain Needa is fantastic fun, and Veteran Captain is another great example of a simple increase in adaptability that feels very "thematic".

What good is the Enginering Captain, when what you need is a Nav command, but the top dial is a Squadron command ???

So you still need some planning ahead.

Weapons or Defence Liason offers a better flexible choice at half the cost, but at the expense of an existing command token. (They fit nicely with Tarkin or Garm)

So it all depends on the situation

Or worse your opponent has concentrated on shooting at all your ships the whole game, accept the one with the Enginering Captain = 6 points wasted.

So like any upgrade, if you use it alot the whole game, then it has been its points worth.

But if an expensive ugrade is only used once in a game, for meager results, its points is wasted, or the least its value is put into question.

In short any upgrade applied, has to figure in some place of value, in your overall strategi and planning, in order to be worthwhile.

And with the zillion ways of making combos, aswell as what you will be facing, its impossible to make the perfect upgrade setup.

So plan, plan , plan and plan some more ahead, is still a signicient part of the game, regardless which upgrades you use.

I agree with Norsehound here, the bane of VSDs is the abundance of easy and reliable ways to negate/mitigate their defense options, with no available upgrades to counter said options. A single brace is nowhere nearly as powerful as it was during wave 1, and the double redirect has limited value as most rebels prepared for anti-imp duty will bring Xi7s.

Manouverability is not a new issue, imps got used to driving a brick since the core release. If there would be a way to somehow get a def retrofit on my VSDs or otherwise getting a chance to protect the def tokens I think I would release them from carrier duty immediately.

In this forum it seems to be a usual thing to open a new thread even if there are already existing ones (this is shown dramatically by all these Wave III threads)

So, again: I think the VSD is a good ship.

Positive Aspects:

- very affordable (73/85pts)

- 6 dice front arc (still one of the most powerful arcs in the game)

- 8 hull points (same/more like any other rebel ship in the game)

Negative Aspects:

- slow and clumsy

- no defensive slot

From my point of view, the positive aspects are stronger. The lame maneuverability can be improved with navigate commands. The missing defensive slot truly is a negative aspect, but there is no ship in the game with more than 1 brace token (except the Nebulon) so there definitely is defensive capability.

If you're no longer satisfied, I'll give anyone a trade in value of $5 for any VSD (Model, Base, Ship Token and Ship Card) that gets sent in...

I don't see calling it a good carrier as an insult. It is the most cost efficient carrier in the game. The lack of defensive retrograde, while irritating, helps keep the cost down. Combined with Rhymer, however, they out range everything in the game. They're a great Ackbar counter when teamed with Rhymer in this regard. Boosted Comms makes it **** near broken. I'm running a double VSD and Demolisher list using an old school swarm of TIE Bombers (plus Dengar) in the Vassal World Cup right now. I'm doing well enough to make the quarterfinals.

I don't see calling it a good carrier as an insult. It is the most cost efficient carrier in the game.

I believe that, point-per-squadron, an ISD-I with Expanded Hangar and Wulff Yularen is actually cheaper whilst still having an available offensive retrofit slot for Boosted Comms.

A Nebulon-B with an Expanded Hangar is also cheaper, but that uses up its offensive retrofit slot.

Find me a Nebulon B with an Offensive Retrofit Slot... Because I WANT IT.

A Nebulon-B with an Expanded Hangar is also cheaper, but that uses up its offensive retrofit slot.

Find me a Nebulon B with an Offensive Retrofit Slot... Because I WANT IT.

Hey, look, is that Halley's Comet?

Sorry, no, that's just the Post Office tower, my mistake.

Nebulon-Bs with Offensive Retrofit slots would be, well, offensive... Yavaris Double Tapping to Long Range? Thankyou.

The thing is, the VSD doesn't need some of those bonuses...

Even when you compare it to the Nebulon itself, at base, its 50% more expensive, but baseline administers 50% more Squadrons... So, that makes sense, right?

Its firepower is otherwise comparable (and potentially deadlier at close range)....

I certainly find it, naked, quite useful.

If someone wants to use their Concentrated Fire MC80 with Home One shot on a Victory. Bonus for me. It'll be at long range, subject to fickle red dice, generally won't kill me in one hit, and keeps my more important, or more fragile stuff, from taking that shot instead...

I think the problem is that a lot of people are still thinking of VSDs like they did in wave 1, where a lot of players loaded upgrades on them as a poor man's Imperial Star Destroyer. They then consider (correctly) that an ISD with all those upgrades goes a lot further.

The demerits of the VSD are well-known (speed and maneuverability are worst in the game, no defensive retrofit slot). Its main benefits are it has a lot of hull, shields, and dice for its points (to my mind, the best cost-to-benefit ratio in the game, even compared to an ISD). You can spend points upgrading its offensive capability (Gunnery Teams, the VSD-II upgrade, XI7s, Intel Officers, etc.) but its poor maneuverability is going to consistently come back to bite you when you can't bring your front arc to bear as much as you'd like to make those upgrades pay off for you. This is why in general, the main upgraded VSDs you see nowadays focus on being carriers - it's points spent on offensive upgrades that can be consistently useful, as you can activate squadrons within range any which way without a care for where your arcs are.

I've had some success running gunship VSD-Is in wave 2 with minimal to no upgrades. Tractor Beams alone if you're running it primarily as a gunship. The best upgrades for VSDs are more ships to watch its flanks and cover its blind spots.

I don't see calling it a good carrier as an insult. It is the most cost efficient carrier in the game.

I believe that, point-per-squadron, an ISD-I with Expanded Hangar and Wulff Yularen is actually cheaper whilst still having an available offensive retrofit slot for Boosted Comms.

An ISD-I with Expanded Hangar Bays (5) and Wulff Yularen (7) is 122 points for effectively Squadrons 6. A VSD-I with Wuff and Expanded Hangar Bays is 85 points for effectively Squadrons 5. That's a lot more cost-effective than the ISD, although the ISD can layer upgrades better (with Boosted Comms AND Expanded Hangar Bays), so your mileage may vary.

An ISD-I with Expanded Hangar Bays (5) and Wulff Yularen (7) is 122 points for effectively Squadrons 6. A VSD-I with Wuff and Expanded Hangar Bays is 85 points for effectively Squadrons 5. That's a lot more cost-effective than the ISD, although the ISD can layer upgrades better (with Boosted Comms AND Expanded Hangar Bays), so your mileage may vary.

Yeah, the VSD is still better value in those terms, so if you just need squadron activations and nothing else then it makes more sense.

My own view on it is that for an extra 37 points, you get a faster ship with more turns, more shields, bigger batteries and more hull, and the additional squadron activation. But that's just me.

I will be honest, since wave 2 came out I haven't even looked at taking my VSDs. But it isn't a good vs bad choice. I just love ISDs, and not for what they can do in the game either (not that they are bad). I just love those gigantic iconic ships bearing down on my opponents. But they cost a ton of points and they have so many good options for upgrades, I have really been trying to focus on getting the best out of them. The other problem the ISD creates for the VCD, is that since the ISD is so much faster the VSDs don't make great escorts, so if I am taking ISDs I don't take VSD to go with them.

An ISD-I with Expanded Hangar Bays (5) and Wulff Yularen (7) is 122 points for effectively Squadrons 6. A VSD-I with Wuff and Expanded Hangar Bays is 85 points for effectively Squadrons 5. That's a lot more cost-effective than the ISD, although the ISD can layer upgrades better (with Boosted Comms AND Expanded Hangar Bays), so your mileage may vary.

Yeah, the VSD is still better value in those terms, so if you just need squadron activations and nothing else then it makes more sense.

My own view on it is that for an extra 37 points, you get a faster ship with more turns, more shields, bigger batteries and more hull, and the additional squadron activation. But that's just me.

My experience is that the VSD is happy to remain in the backfield commanding squadrons and waiting for the end game to bring its black dice to bear, but will otherwise just command squadrons and throw red dice at people with few complaints. The ISD doesn't like having to choose between Squadrons and Engineering/Navigate, which are more useful for the "get in there and make these dice happen" impulse you'll have with a ship that expensive.

When it comes to Imperial squadrons, often all you need is Squadron activations, especially earlier on. TIEs do not like waiting for the squadrons phase (where they may be already dead) and so a cost-effective means of bossing them around is still valuable in the right lists.

I just want to be sure I'm not throwing 73 points away when I take a VSD in a list. The boogyman of Wave 2 is Ackbar... and when designing a list to counter a typical heavy-hitting Ackbar list, the VSD has serious liabilities. In fact, any VSDs going against a Home-One supported list will never use their brace.

So again, it comes down to what will your VSDs do against Accuracy and XI7 users.

If your opponent doesn't use them for whatever reason (which will be hard since every ship in the game except Raiders, GSDs, and CR-90Bs) can use XI7 or H9s... then we can think about using VSDs competitively.

But saying you can joust a long range works only to a point, since all Star Destroyers are designed to close with their enemy. And for whatever size class your ship is, Ackbar can still give it more red dice than you can shoot out of your front arc.

I think VSDs have two very useful functions. The first, as many people have stated, is as a dedicated carrier. I'm thinking of running a three VSD-I list with Tarkin, Boosted Comms and a Rhymerball. Tarkin functions essentially as Expanded Hangars, leaving me free to choose Boosted Comms, commanding up to twelve squadrons per turn. Spread the VSDs out a bit so they can protect each other's flanks against faster ships, and use the bombers to clear out anything that gets behind them. Against an Ackbar list, simply sit back at long range and let Rhymer soften the enemy up for you.

The second is to support an ISD-II. I ran this in a tournament last weekend. The VSD-II had OLP, would exhaust defense tokens and maybe strip a few shields, then a Screed ISD-II with SW-7's would drop a guaranteed five damage on a target that could do nothing to prevent it. And it gives your opponent a tough choice - do you go after the 8-hull VSD with a lower damage output, or the 11-hull ISD chucking round after round of solid damage at you? The VSD tended to survive long enough to trigger this combo a few times, and if you decide to focus fire to kill it, that means your weakened ships are now facing an undamaged ISD who's ticked that you killed his buddy.

A big thing to remember is that a naked VSD matches a naked MC80 in hull and dice with only a slight disadvantage in shields. The MC80 has terrible maneuverability but a massive side arc. The VSD has terrible maneuverability but a massive front arc. A VSD could spar with an MC80 and do a decent amount of damage before probably losing. And by the time you're done upgrading your MC80, you could probably field two VSDs for the same points, and now have double the hull and double the dice.

Comparing a VSD to an ISD isn't a fair comparison. The ISD is obviously better in a toe-to-toe matchup. But the VSD can fill a great role at a great cost in points, allowing you to take other things that can bring the pain in another way. An ISD-I with Boosted Comms is 114 points. A VSD-I with BC and Wulff Yularen (giving you an effective Squadron rating of 4 once you get a single token) is 84. That's another three bombers you can add in by reducing the points spent on a ship that's not supposed to doing damage itself, but rather commanding fighters to do the damage for it. And if the VSD has to get into the fray, it's only two dice down from the ISD in its forward arc. It's not a bad ship, it's just that the ISD is better in every way (and has the cost increase to reflect that).

I'm still in love with VSDs with 400 points games !

With an ISD in the list, they feel like the annoying little brother : my little trick is to deploy them first with 3-4 squadrons to delay placement of more important pieces, and they annoy the hell out of my opponents. Bear in mind, in terms of pure damage, sustanibility and speed, the VSD is 66% of an ISD and seems deceptively weaker. In terms of dice thrown, it still throws 75% of the ISD's front arc.

But the real trick here is that, because it's slow and clumsy, people are going to deploy and maneuver to avoid it so as to make the fleet points invested in it worthless. Deployed as a centerpiece of a fleet, it's easily avoided by flanking. And it allows to put faster ships on the flanks to either split the enemy fleet far on the flank and isolate them, or drive them towards the middle where the VSD(s) is(are). They still are decent boats, but using their weaknesses to predict enemy counter deployment and behavior is a good strength.

When you drop a VSD in the middle of the table, buy 2 turns with squadron deployments, then drop an ISD on a flank at speed 3, trust me it's going to confuse the hell out of their target priority.