I for one would like to see more Kappa!

You want a swamp creature to eat your butt-hole?

Kappapa, Kappapa, Nitoriiiii...

I also would like to see more kappa, and tengu (none of this "kenku" nonsense), and karakasa-obake, and nue, and rokurokubi, and all sorts of strange yokai, to reinforce the notion that this is a strange, wondrous, magical world that can't be easily understood.

You want this . (For the rickroll version, click here )

This is symptomatic of a wider discussion that comes up with regards to the setting from time to time. Some people like the supernatural elements of the setting, and place high priority on them; others prefer the setting to be primarily (nearly solely) about the people. I fall firmly in the latter camp. To be clear, I like that the various spirits and nonhuman creatures exist- they add richness to the world, make it more distinct from our own, and can provide handy plot devices if necessary. I am also a big fan of increasing the proportion of neutral spirits in the world, at the expense of the predominance of gribblies from Jigoku. But I also think that the more often they appear, the less importance is attached to them. Kenku (I don't care whether they're called kenku or tengu) should exist , certainly but it should also be a big deal when one of them appears, and that works much better when they're relatively rare. Likewise bakaneko, baku, and numerous others. In my view, Rokugan as a setting is compelling enough in its human interactions, and anything that distracts attention from those human interactions is to be downplayed.

With that said, I don't claim to be the sole arbiter of how Rokugan should be or anything. If people like kappa and shiyokai and kuchisake-onna and so on, there are rules for many of them, and there's absolutely no reason they can't increase their prevalence in their own games. If you're not having fun with L5R, there's no point getting into it at all, so everyone can and should do what works for them in their own games. Sometimes, a fluidly-defined setting is a good thing.

For me, Rokugan is also more (I mean mostly by far, like 95%) about the human drama rather than the really fantastical aspects. I would be totally happy with a setting reboot that made supernatural matters totally mysterious if also at the same time a generally accepted part of how things are, which I would guess is pretty close to how many traditional societies actually experience(d) these things: you almost certainly have heard of weird things happening, you may or may not put stock in such tales, but it is pretty unlikely that you know anyone who has experience them firsthand and you definitely have not done so yourself.

For me, Rokugan is also more (I mean mostly by far, like 95%) about the human drama rather than the really fantastical aspects.

One must admit, said human drama tends to be also nonsensical to a similar degree .

For me, Rokugan is also more (I mean mostly by far, like 95%) about the human drama rather than the really fantastical aspects. I would be totally happy with a setting reboot that made supernatural matters totally mysterious if also at the same time a generally accepted part of how things are, which I would guess is pretty close to how many traditional societies actually experience(d) these things: you almost certainly have heard of weird things happening, you may or may not put stock in such tales, but it is pretty unlikely that you know anyone who has experience them firsthand and you definitely have not done so yourself.

I don't agree with your point of view for several reasons. One of them, and the biggest, being the fact that at the very start of L5R, the fantastical aspect was very present. So even with a reboot, it doesn't make much sense to remove the "fantastical aspect". Why? Because that would remove the very beginning of the Clan War where the Shadowlands and the Crab were allied to take the throne. I just can't see how it's possible to remove that from the game.

Also, another of my point is, specially in the RPG side, I see enough human drama in the real world that I prefer to play in a game where I can bring supernatural drama to work around with. To me, Rokugan is the balance between the human drama and the fantastical aspect. I would like to focus on "the balance", because it's both. Why? Because some people has some clan's preferences and remove something from the setting and you besically remove an important part of their clan. I will not deny that some part of the story was wierd in some aspect, but it's not that bad, I've seen worst.

That's my opinion though and that's why I like the RPG aspect a lot, because a good storyteller can fix a few parts he hates in his story. Sure it's only through the RPG aspect and it's only the parts that the storyteller hates, but it's a way to deal with it. I will say that I am not a fan of any story reboot because I never saw a reboot that gave the same feeling as the original.

As for the Kappa. Well... There's too much Kappa on Twitch.

I can see enough human drama in cheap soap operas that I prefer to play in a game where I can bring supernatural drama to work around with.

FTFY. Rokugan works with a very special kind of human drama you usually can't find in the real world.

I can see enough human drama in cheap soap operas that I prefer to play in a game where I can bring supernatural drama to work around with.

FTFY. Rokugan works with a very special kind of human drama you usually can't find in the real world.

May I ask you to not misquote me please? I have my very own reason to have written what I've wrote. This is also why I've said there's a need for a balance between both kind of drama. Thanks for your understanding.

I can see enough human drama in cheap soap operas that I prefer to play in a game where I can bring supernatural drama to work around with.

FTFY. Rokugan works with a very special kind of human drama you usually can't find in the real world.

May I ask you to not misquote me please? I have my very own reason to have written what I've wrote. This is also why I've said there's a need for a balance between both kind of drama. Thanks for your understanding.

It was sarcasm and not misunderstanding . I know what you meant there, but I don't think that the real problem is what you think (that's why the ' FTFY '). IMHO, the problem is that human drama in L5R is... hmmm... not exactly high literature if you know what I mean. It would be better for everyone if L5R dropped this forced emphasis on weird samurai drama and start focusing on wacky supernatural adventures where having weird stuff is actually a good thing.

Yes, you can say that this is up to personal tastes, but I have yet to meet with someone who unironically likes the way L5R handles human-centered storytelling.

Yes, the canon storylines are often deeply flawed, for a variety of reasons (influence of often-nonsensical tournament prizes, having multiple writers, changing writers before storylines are neatly closed off, lack of payment of said volunteer writers, etc. etc.). But that problem itself is not at all fixed by increasing the prevalence of the supernatural in the canon stories, whereas it is easily enough addressed in role-playing, just by doing a better job of telling those stories (whether with supernatural elements, or without). Ideally, what makes human interactions in L5R compelling is not their familiarity from everyday life (or cheap soap operas, if you prefer); what makes them compelling is that their culture, society, and entire worldview is utterly different from our own... and yet they are still human, and so have no choice but to respond to those circumstances as such. I'm not going to claim to unironically like the way the canon story of L5R has handled human-centred storytelling, but I will say that I absolutely love the potential that it has, and pretty much every memorable moment from my experience of the RPG has been about human interactions, not dealing with weirdo spirits and other supernatural creatures.

I don't really want to argue this, because fundamentally it comes down to personal preference, and, as I said in the previous post, one of the beautiful things about the RPG is that everyone involved in this discussion can get what they want from it (as long as they have a similarly-inclined group). But there seemed to be some slight misunderstanding of my position, no doubt due to my own lack of clarity, so it seems worthwhile clearing that up.

There is no chance that L5R will be purged of supernatural elements. It's a fantasy setting after all. My preference is simply that the supernatural aspects remain mysterious and rare, the subject of legends and superstitions rather than firsthand experience. I think Idanthyrsus hits the nail on the head: the human culture of Rokugan, which is the primary subject of the setting anyhow, is already exotic. This too is what I mean by human drama, seeing how the unfamiliar structures of this foreign society play out. Approving of particular characterizations and story arcs is a separate matter altogether.

As for the Crab, yes they have a special proximity to the supernatural darkness. But you could do their story credit without making the supernatural aspects of their enemies so literal/obvious. One thing I love about Japanese horror is the juxtaposition of the extremely grotesque with the ordinary and familiar.

My preference is simply that the supernatural aspects remain mysterious and rare, the subject of legends and superstitions rather than firsthand experience.

The problem with this is that in Rokugan, supernatural is the name of the game. You literally can't have a single conflict that doesn't have something supernatural (usually divine or other cosmic) trolling it into a win or lose. The humans are usually just pawns and/or couriers who cut some sh*t up but then they are quickly discarded as largely unimportant elements while the real players make their moves. This is a running theme in Rokugan, from both Days of Thunder through the various crisis events (Destroyer War, Hidden Emperor, etc.) to relatively small-scale conflicts (the War of Dark Fire, the Tsuno vs Lion face-off). Hell, mundane things like the Matsu/Kakita feud can be tracked back to a demigod (Hantei Genji) f*cking things up for no real reason. And the characters live in this world, where the Tsuno can teleport into their castle and kill everyone any time, or where the Lying Darkness can overtake their lord and troll everyone into a fate worse than death. It is not mystery, it is not superstition, it is not a legend, it is the real deal in Rokugan just as, say, quantum-physics is real IRL (as: you are usually not involved with it only because you are too ignorant to realize that it controls every aspect of your life).

This too is what I mean by human drama, seeing how the unfamiliar structures of this foreign society play out. Approving of particular characterizations and story arcs is a separate matter altogether.

Well, certain characterizations and story arcs can damage the way the "unfamiliar structures" play out as they set up bad examples. Like, portraying the setting as a place where leading an army of utterly evil daemons against the Empire and crucifying your son onto a banner earn you the position of the Fortune of Persistence .

I find it interesting that the voices disapproving of supernatural elements come from the same Clan.

I find it interesting that the voices disapproving of supernatural elements come from the same Clan.

I don't think it's a coincidence. Players who are drawn to certain clans tend to have similar opinions on the setting.

I find it interesting that the voices disapproving of supernatural elements come from the same Clan.

I don't think it's a coincidence. Players who are drawn to certain clans tend to have similar opinions on the setting.

Though, in this case, disapproving the supernatural as a Lion is kinda ironic if you think about it .

AtoMaki, you are building a pretty good case that the supernatural stuff (or at least the subcategory of divine intervention) is actually bad for the setting.

Kakita Shiro, does that mean you would like to see more kappa, too?

Kakita Shiro, does that mean you would like to see more kappa, too?

I am ambivalent in the matter, as long as the usage is appropriate.

Sorry, are you referring to the terminology?

Sorry, are you referring to the terminology?

The use of a kappa in a story/in the game.

Ah thanks for clarifying. So which would you consider most appropriate, that encounters with kappa be more or less frequent?

As a separate matter, I think even if such encounters are pretty rare that any resulting surprise would be less a matter of finding out that kappa "actually do exist" (since (a) this is a traditional scoeity, where such things are not viewed as scientifically impossible, and (b) it's a fantasy setting) than a matter of actually coming across one. So for example, if I was out hiking and saw a mountain lion that would be a surprise to me, even considering I know mountain lions exist and sometimes live in the same area where people hike.

I think that encounters with the supernatural beings such as bakemono/yokai/divine beasts/oni should be common enough that players should not be surprised or confused by their presence in the setting, but not so common that players automatically assume that anything weird is because of them.

A player in a campaign based around a group of Samurai and Ronin on a Musha Shugyo should be daydreaming about running into a Kenku/Tengu and impressing them enough that the Tengu agrees to train their character. After talking to the Village Headman about the bandits they are chasing, they can realize that they were talking to Nurarihyon. While visiting a house they can play with a child and later find they were making the building Zashiki-warashi happy enough for it to bless them. When crossing a bridge in the forest they should be wondering if it will be a Samurai, bandits, Oni, Kappa or even something else that will block their way across. When the girl they fell for turns out to be a crane, fox, cat, yuki-onna, or minor goddess/fortune they should think be thinking this is Japanese supernatural romance and not something strange.

Rokugan is a fantasy world dominated by humans, but it is also one where humans have dueled gods and won. Humans should be the majority encounters, but the supernatural should be always sitting at the back of players minds.

Ultimatecalibur, we can agree that Rokugani characters shouldn't be (at least by default) skeptical of the existence of supernatural phenomenon. I like your phrase that the characters should take supernatural explanations, at least in the back of their minds, into account when working through the plot. I also like and agree with how you temper that by noting that neither should characters (or at least every character) jump to the conclusion that any mystery has a supernatural explanation. This seems like a very compelling balance to me, where the setting remains fantastical but the fantastical elements also remain strange and wonderful enough to be truly fantastical; that is, to the characters and not just to the people playing them.

This seems like a very compelling balance to me, where the setting remains fantastical but the fantastical elements also remain strange and wonderful enough to be truly fantastical; that is, to the characters and not just to the people playing them.

I would say that this depends very heavily on the campaign. A Garo esque Jade Magistrate campaign based around sealing portals to the spirit realms would have a different level of fantastic than a Mito Kōmon inspired Emerald Magistrate campaign if a Kappa popped up, but Rokugan should have room for both. Players should know that both styles are possible so that it does not break their suspension of disbelief, but characters should not necessarily find the supernatural/fantastical strange or mundane in every campaign by default.