I honestly haven't seen a Gallant Haven since my first wave 1 friendly...

But the way fighter tactics are going I think it might be worth reconsidering!

It is. Stick Jan and some X-wings next to GH and they become very tough indeed.

I honestly haven't seen a Gallant Haven since my first wave 1 friendly...

But the way fighter tactics are going I think it might be worth reconsidering!

I think the overall decline in GH came with the abundance of rhymer/fireballs. Everybody and his dog is bringing rhymer, so what use has a title that covers squadrons at distance 1 when all bombers strike from distance 3. From what I see you need proactive strategy as a rebel to counter rhymer, and sitting tight to GH waiting for somebody to engage next to your big buddy is all but proactive..

I honestly haven't seen a Gallant Haven since my first wave 1 friendly...

But the way fighter tactics are going I think it might be worth reconsidering!

I think the overall decline in GH came with the abundance of rhymer/fireballs. Everybody and his dog is bringing rhymer, so what use has a title that covers squadrons at distance 1 when all bombers strike from distance 3. From what I see you need proactive strategy as a rebel to counter rhymer, and sitting tight to GH waiting for somebody to engage next to your big buddy is all but proactive..

Exactly. Rhymer is kind of lame in that he breaks a basic premise of the game. GH is also kind of lame, IMO a desperate "fix" to the overwhelming Imperial first strike capability (6 blue + swarm).

There are definitely some oddly-costed items in the game. If I was king of FFG for a day* here's what I'd do, preferring points changes when possible but errata when necessary...

Imperials

• Devastator (ISD title) is extremely overpriced. FFG doesn't seem to correctly price the Imperial upgrades that effectively come down to "compromise your odds of surviving to get some blue dice." At 5 points, I might consider it. 10 points is far too high.
• Admiral Chiraneau, at this point with the addition of Intel to the game, seems overcosted at 10 points. 6 points and I think he'd be a competitive option.
• Director Isard's effect just isn't that great, no matter what its cost is. She'd either need some kind of errata or a future combo upgrade card that triggered on correctly guessing the attacked ship's top command dial, neither of which I feel comfortable designing right now.
• Dominator (VSD title) is extremely overcosted at 12 points for much the same reasons as the Devastator. Bring this down to 6-7 points and I'd definitely give it more consideration.
• Warlord (VSD title) is also overcosted at 8 points for its effect. It has some synergy with H9 Turbolasers, which are also overcosted. At 4-5 points, I'd consider it.
• Grand Moff Tarkin is an astonishing 38 points. I don't deny that his effect is good, but it's extremely expensive for what you get and for its restrictions. I'd definitely give him more consideration at 30 points, which is 5 more than Garm whose effect is similar but not quite as good.
• Darth Vader (commander) could also probably use a slight discount down to 32 points or thereabouts. He's good, but he's nowhere near Ackbar good (we're getting to that )
• The VSD-II at 85 points is a hefty 12 point increase from a VSD-I to swap black dice to blue and an ordnance slot to an ion cannon slot. Conversely, an ISD-II gains a lot more (+1 red dice, +2 blue dice at the cost of 3 black dice; defensive retrofit slot at the cost an offensive retrofit slot) over an ISD-I for only 10 points and is a better platform for the kind of upgrades VSD-IIs used to compete for in wave 1 (Gunnery Teams, Intel Officers, Turbolaser upgrades, etc.). I'd reduce the VSD-II down to 80 points (a 7 point upgrade).
• TIE Advanced get a 1 point discount to 11 points. 12 is all right but seems just a smidge too high.
• Rhymer gets errataed to only affect bombers (tada, constant forum whining removed).
• YV-666 reduced by 1 point to 14 points. The weird little garbage truck needs a little fixer-upper and putting a 2 point gap between it and the Aggressor might see it get a bit more love. It's such a weird squadron with some definite things going for it (7 HP, Rogue, Grit, 2 black + 2 blue anti-squadron) with some huge things going against it as well (2 speed, Heavy, 1 blue dice anti-ship without bomber).
• Jumpaster 5000 reduced by 1 point to 11 points because nobody sees these on the table unless they're being piloted by a man who believes toilet paper is suitable material for a hat.

Rebels

• Admiral Ackbar I would simply errata to add the following to the end of the last sentence "if that attack is the first from that hull zone for this activation." It incentivizes actually Ackbar slashing instead of conga-lining and it makes Ackbar less a brain-dead choice for Rebel commander. Increasing his cost wouldn't do much, unless you made it unfeasibly high (50 points? how high would it need to go?), which has the unfortunate side effect of either removing him from the game or making running him with non-Assault Frigate conga lists even less cost effective.
• Home One increases to 10 points (from 7). That's a very potent title right there.
• Paragon (Assault Frigate title) errataed to read "While attacking a ship that has already been attacked by this ship or another friendly ship this round, add 1 black die to your attack pool." As it is, it's very difficult to trigger effectively and it has negative repercussions on the Assault Frigate MkIIA, which the title is designed to compliment through double-arcing.
• Speaking of which, drop the Assault Frigate MkIIA to 79 points (a 2 point discount). This is rarely seen. The +1 blue dice up front and back and +1 blue anti-squadron are well-received, but the -1 squadron hurts a bit and the simple fact is that Assault Frigates as they're currently played (everybody conga!) have little use for the extra front/rear blue dice.
• Similarly, drop the MC80 Assault Cruiser by 3 points to 111 points. I very rarely see these online or in meatspace compared to the Command variant, as most players don't find the slight dice improvements and +1 defensive retrofit slot worth the increased cost and -1 Squadrons and -1 offensive retrofit slot.
• YT-1300 is +2 points and gains Rogue. My most dedicated Rebel buddy is still scratching his head at how best to use these vs. X-Wings and not coming up with great solutions (and everyone else has long since given up trying). Rogue would differentiate it enough and help it with the intrinsic difficulty of being a speed 2 anti-squadron fighter and give Rebels some more generic Rogue lovin'.
• HWK-290 gets a 1 point discount to 11 points for the same basic reason as the Jumpmaster discount. Jan Ors is so astoundingly good you need a REALLY good reason to use the generic version. A points discount helps, if only a little.
• Jan Ors is +1 point. Jan Ors is extremely good. At least Dengar good, in my experience. She should cost Dengar good.

Generic upgrades

• Defense and Weapons Liaisons: cost reduced by 1 to 2 points total. Good with Tarkin, meh with everyone else. Require a decent investment to make work and generally better for newer players.
• Command Officers (Engineering Officer, Wing Commander, etc.): cost reduced by 1 to 5 points total. Similarly, these are decent officers but generally better for newer players and need a bit of a bump for better players to consider them.
• Point Defense Reroute errataed to: "When attacking squadrons at close range, you may reroll any number of dice." Makes it actively worth considering on better-flak ships and removes the anti-synergy with black dice on the current Point Defense Reroute.
• Quad Laser Turrets reduced to 3 points from 5. Counter 1 versus bombers is not the greatest, but for a 3 point upgrade, I'd consider it.
• Ion Cannon Batteries reduced to 4 points from 5. Just needs a little nudge.
• NK-7 Ion Cannons reduced to 8 points from 10. I realize FFG is worried about people spamming these, but 10 points for an effect that removes defense tokens only once per turn and only on a blue crit and only after the defender chooses which defense tokens he's spending is a bit too expensive in my opinion.
• Cluster Bombs reduced to 3 points from 5, although I'm still pretty sure we'd never see them used.
• Redundant Shields reduced to 6 points from 8. I can't fathom how these were priced higher than Electronic Countermeasures or Advanced Projectors.
• Expanded Launchers reduced to 11 points from 13. The same cost as Ordnance Experts + Assault Concussion Missiles, which still feel like a superior choice in most circumstances.
• Rapid Reload reduced to 7 points from 8 for similar reasons. Enhanced Armament is 10, you'd think black dice would be cheaper to come by given their limitations.
• Nav Team cost reduced to 3 points from 4 points. It's still not great, but hey cheaper never hurts.
• Projection Experts reduced from 6 points to 4 points. It's janky fun and you shouldn't discourage janky fun for all those guys out there who want to try something silly that's not generally that great.
• H9 Turbolasers reduced from 8 points to 4 points. You get better effects from the Heavy Turbolaser Turrets and XI7 Turbolasers for only 6 points. The poor H9s need some lovin'.
• Slaved Turrets reduced from 6 points to 4. That limitation is pretty fierce for a single red dice. Works great on Salvation, otherwise this is not a very popular upgrade.
• Turbolaser Reroute Circuits increased from 7 points to 8. It's quite good on CR90s and MC30s, as we're all aware, and definitely superior than Enhanced Armament on either of those options, which is 10 points.
• XI7 Turbolasers errated to specify that the defender cannot suffer more than 1 damage on EACH other hull zone so Advanced Projectors can be a soft counter once again and the meta can open up to contention from other turbolaser upgrades on larger ships.
• XX-9 Turbolasers reduced from 5 points to 4 points to incentivize consideration.
• Ruthless Strategists reduced from 4 points to 3 points. They're useful with the right setup but it still requires hurting your own squadrons to proc it under a specific circumstance.
• Sensor Team... I don't even know. An errata would likely be required. Currently the requirements are simply too high (exhaust and spend a dice to change another dice to an accuracy is a net use of once per turn at the cost of two dice, which is... oof) to get good use out of it, but making Accuracy results available too easily, especially when combined with other available upgrades (particularly XI7s) gets ugly (see: why Home One is currently deeply hated).

And... that's it. It's mostly a fun mental exercise because I know full well these won't be changed (with the slight chance of an errata/FAQ here or there) and I still love the game anyways.

*Yes, random internet-dweller, I know I'm stupid, I know I'm wrong, I know it's a good thing I'm not king of FFG for a day. Thank you for your helpful comments.

Good job Snipafist!

For the Dominator, I've used it quite effectively back in Wave 1, but on a VSD 1 rather than a VSD 2. It might seem odd, but it really brings something to the VSD1 : the ability to not only fire at longer range than he actually can but also the ability to get good support dice with the blue dice (accuracies, reliable damage, etc). With Tarking allowing it to repair 3 shields a turn, you're likely not losing out much in terms of sustainability compared to a regular VSD and you can push more damage. I like megamen's analysis that the Engineering Command becomes a better concetrate fire command, allowing you to spam it with comfort and choose every turn which one is more important.

Devastator is hard to price but I'm sure it's got some value, somewhere. Probably not as a centerpiece tank though, perhaps more as a flanker because it will have more opportunities to use its front arc.

I really think TRC is way undercosted compared to let's say H9 Turbolasers. The fact that you don't have to sacrifice a hit and can use redundant tokens make flanking Corvettes very scary. I've switched to lots of squadrons to specifically deal with them.

I find Expanded Launchers on the pricey side as well.

I'm shocked no one has mentioned Han Solo Millennium Falcon. It's the best squadron in the game, when cost isn't considered, which is always has to be, so I consider Han to be the worst squadron in the game. 26 points is way too much!! He should have been 23-24, or he should have Bomber (my preference). It's Han!!!!

I agree with a lot of the suggestions above, especially for the cards that rarely see serious play. I would love to use some of these card (see below) but they are unusable for their price. Unusable in competitive play at their cost and with the current card selection:

• Han Solo Millennium Falcon
• Redundant Shields
• Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams
• Ruthless Strategists
• Independence
• Warlord
• Point Defense Reroute
• Gallant Haven

Each to their own.... Having faced the falcon a fair bit I wouldn't say hes over costed at all!

Dominator I find is great on a VSD1. For the same price I think I prefer a VSD1 with dominator over the VSD2, just because it adds so much flexibility in side and rear arc coverage to a ship that is almost destined to be outflanked.

Speaking of a VSD2, that's the one I think is over priced. So many times I prefer a VSD1 with a range of upgrades over the massive premium for the 2 version.

Beyond that = basically everything Snipafist said!

Point Defense Reroute i'd definately consider taking time if it was 1pt maybe even 2pts

Point Defense Reroute i'd definately consider taking time if it was 1pt maybe even 2pts

Except for Rhymer. If he did have that stupid ability there would be a couple of cards that could be considered (PD reroute at 2-3 pts, QLT)

Each to their own.... Having faced the falcon a fair bit I wouldn't say hes over costed at all!

Dominator I find is great on a VSD1. For the same price I think I prefer a VSD1 with dominator over the VSD2, just because it adds so much flexibility in side and rear arc coverage to a ship that is almost destined to be outflanked.

Speaking of a VSD2, that's the one I think is over priced. So many times I prefer a VSD1 with a range of upgrades over the massive premium for the 2 version.

Beyond that = basically everything Snipafist said!

If the VSD-II had speed 3 at -/I/- or something...then it might be worth it. But not now.

I'm shocked no one has mentioned Han Solo Millennium Falcon. It's the best squadron in the game, when cost isn't considered, which is always has to be, so I consider Han to be the worst squadron in the game. 26 points is way too much!! He should have been 23-24, or he should have Bomber (my preference). It's Han!!!!

I agree with a lot of the suggestions above, especially for the cards that rarely see serious play. I would love to use some of these card (see below) but they are unusable for their price. Unusable in competitive play at their cost and with the current card selection:

• Han Solo Millennium Falcon
• Redundant Shields
• Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams
• Ruthless Strategists
• Independence
• Warlord
• Point Defense Reroute
• Gallant Haven

Redundant Shields seem kind of pricey...you get 1 shield back per round, but chances are small that you've lost any in round 1 and in round 6 it's too late to matter. So it's MAX 4 shields back. Maybe they priced it at 8/Defensive/Modification because it has strong synergy with say MC80 Assault, Raymus (or Garm maybe), Engineering spam, backed by Engineering Team and Redemption? Possibly some Projection Experts as well? That's 5 shields restored, plus a couple transferred. Together with ECM to ensure brace (and maybe Blissex to restore it if lost?) it could make such an MC80 a pretty tough nut to crack.

Redundant shields at 8 is overpriced by min 2 points.

Wulff is 7 points. With an engineering token + Wulff you get the same benefit as redundant shields AND you can use Wulff for boosting Nav / Squadron / Concentrate fire tokens if you don't need the +1 shield. So same effect + more flexibility and at a lower price.

One could argue quite reasonably, that it is even more overcoasted because of the other cards that can be used in this slot.

One unexplored reason for the cost is a Raymus / Wulff + Redundant Shields for +2 shields per round. But given XI7s + Intel Officer / accuracy really limit damage mitigation, the benefit of super shield regeneration is dubious.

The overcosting could also be that Wulff is unique and Redundant shields is not.

Plus, Rebels have more use out of it.

I honestly haven't seen a Gallant Haven since my first wave 1 friendly...

But the way fighter tactics are going I think it might be worth reconsidering!

I think that it was because many people used the Gallant Haven "unoptimally" (god I hate the word, especially when I say that).

Even though it's a squadron upgrade, it actually doesn't benefit the AFMK2 B carrier as much, but works better with the AFMK2 A that will actually want to be closer. With the AFMK2 B wanting to stay at long range and spamming squadron commands with the fighters being further out, they don't benefit from the GH as much. It's a counter intuitive upgrade, but I've used it to good effect in Wave 1 along with Gunnery Team to be able to shoot both from the best arc in anti ship and the widest in anti fighter barrage. With 2 B-Wings including Keyan, it's a pretty scary all around boat !

While Paragon feels more effective on an AFMK2 B, due to being at long range being easier to throw a double arc with the way the MK2's arcs are set up.

Redundant shields at 8 is overpriced by min 2 points.

Wulff is 7 points. With an engineering token + Wulff you get the same benefit as redundant shields AND you can use Wulff for boosting Nav / Squadron / Concentrate fire tokens if you don't need the +1 shield. So same effect + more flexibility and at a lower price.

One could argue quite reasonably, that it is even more overcoasted because of the other cards that can be used in this slot.

One unexplored reason for the cost is a Raymus / Wulff + Redundant Shields for +2 shields per round. But given XI7s + Intel Officer / accuracy really limit damage mitigation, the benefit of super shield regeneration is dubious.

Like you said, redundant shields competes for the defensive retrofit which is already highly contested with ECM (most useful all-purpose def retrofit, hands down) and AP.

Redundant shield does nothing against that superlucky volley roll that smites you instantly. It also does not help much if an enemy wants you dead and focus fire from more than one ship on you. On a side note, it even does little if you survive that superlucky volley with a few HP, as one single shield brought back will not make a difference.

Only real benefit of redundant shields would be small volleys sprinkled on you over the course of a game. Not going to happen.

Snipa- I actually disagree with a bunch of your choices, but I love the thought you so clearly put into it so you get a like from me.

My personal number one pick for something that desperately need a recost is Cluster Bombs. Why in gods name would I spend five points on this dumpster fire of a card? Maybe at 2 or 3 it could give value.

If the VSD-II had speed 3 at -/I/- or something...then it might be worth it. But not now.

On a side note, I'm expecting an engine upgrade card (likely a Modification, as all cards that affect base statistics have been Modifications) as an Offensive Retrofit at some point which would likely be worded in such a way that it was more beneficial to slow ships (like an MC80 or VSD) than it was to already-fast ships (like an ISD or Assault Frigate or the like).

Even then, I'd probably just slap it on a VSD-I given the huge points disparity between a VSD-I and VSD-II, but who knows?

Snipa- I actually disagree with a bunch of your choices, but I love the thought you so clearly put into it so you get a like from me.

My personal number one pick for something that desperately need a recost is Cluster Bombs. Why in gods name would I spend five points on this dumpster fire of a card? Maybe at 2 or 3 it could give value.

Hey it's okay to disagree. This is largely just a dreaming-it-up kind of thread anyways, so my feelings aren't hurt and I appreciate the polite sentiment .

Cluster Bombs is a dumpster fire all right. A points reduction (like you and I mentioned) would see it used occasionally in an unfilled Defensive Retrofit slot (which are increasingly rare these days, particularly on larger ships). I'd prefer some kind of errata where the effect would be lessened (down to say 2, maybe 3 dice) and required the card to be exhausted to use so it could be consistently useful against individual squadrons over the long haul, but that's some pie-in-the-sky thinking right there. As it is, it's basically just binder/bin fodder.

After another game today, I'm really starting to think that large ships should have had been given more thought to their points or their current stats.

Due to how the game mechanics are in terms of pure defense, which favour a high number of attacks over strong powerful attacks due to how defense tokens work, I'm not sure that the large ships have a real niche except to waste fleet points

To be fair, I only ever see them make their points back as carrier ships and that's really about it

EDIT : To further detail my point, so we're relatively clear on what I meant, a large number of attacks is one of the most interesting things you can get in a fleet due to how they organically ignore or force the expenditure of defense tokens or force the opponent to take the damage in order to keep his defense tokens.

The larger the ship, the more points it will burn in relation with the fleet, so the less total number of attacks you can get. Moreover, since their arcs are bigger, it's more difficult to force the opponent to eat double arcs. The less total number of attacks you can get, the more difficult it is to go around defense tokens. But since large ships can throw a larger number of squadrons, they mitigate that somewhat.

An ISD capable of throwing 5 squadrons is likely to take off 3-4 shields off its target hull zone, then push up its front arc. Paired with HTT, that's the best way to take care of the Brace ships, and their squadrons also help mitigate against the fast nimble ships without Brace.

That's what I meant that their points aren't worth it, except in the case of carriers.