Just some speculation.

Wave 1 had a few cards where I think the points were off. I put this down to the game being very early and a lot of things either not having a full effect or the designers being conservative (or taking a much longer view of where the future balance will be).

But Wave 2 also seems to have some "oddly" costed cards, but nowhere near as much (in my opinion).

Examples - Wave 1

- Basic TIE fighters - I think these were actually costed OK for Wave 1, but I almost think they are a bit over now. Maybe 6 or 7?

- Xwings - on the other hand, I thought these were well over costed in Wave 1, but they really seem to have undergone a resurgence in Wave 2.

- Demolisher - for such a game changing card, should this be more?

- Warlord - 8 points has always seemed a bit high for this title. Still seems high. (TLRCs are less and better).

Examples - Wave 2

- Assault Torps - at 5 points these are an awesome upgrade. Either they are undercosted or assault concussion missiles are overcosted?

- Anti squadron ship upgrades - cluster bombs and quad lasers - I like both of these, I'd love to take them, but I cant see either of them being more than 3 points. Especially clusters, which take a vital slot.

- Devastator - 10 points?

- TLRCs - Another awesome upgrade for ships that can use it. Basically the ACMs of red dice. Not sure but I think 8 points seems a bit better for this - same as H9s, which are lot more specific in effect.

- Nav/Wing commander/Eng captain/tactics expert - 6 points? Would 4 see these used more considering the slot they compete for and the other available options for 6 points?

APTs do one less damage than ACMs, I'm pretty sure that's where the difference comes from.

I've always felt like Expanded Launchers is a bit too pricey. It's good, but it's the closest range die. Is the expected 2 damage worth 13 points? You can get either ACMs or APTs, and Ordinance Experts for a bigger boost in average damage at lower cost.

I feel like TRCs are a bit undercosted. I get that the idea of making you spend a defense token is part of the cost, but with small, fast rebel ships having two Evades, I think the cost is less than FFG thought it would be, especially when it synergizes so well with Ackbar, and the very cheap Corvette.

Demolisher could probably cost a little more. It's an utterly game-changing title. I love it.

I actually think that the basic Tie's a priced about right when you consider what Swarm allows them to do with Howlrunner.Throw in Dengar and you've go something that can throw the same dice as an interceptor and counter. Now, that being said, if I can squeeze out an extra 3 points I will ALWAYS take an Interceptor instead. On the other hand, given how much X-wings can do I go back and forth on them. On the one hand for a ship that can bomber AND escort is seems a little like they should be 15 points BUT considering how fast they can go down to a properly constructed Imperial fighter swarm I think maybe the price is about right.

I think Demolisher is priced about right given the hull value of the GSD and I think APT are way under priced or ACM are way over priced. I think 7 points for both feels about right but having APT for 2 points less feels a little off-balance. It's the

Devastor is a big head scratcher. 10 points? When will that ever see play...

To me, a big part of the cost of upgrades is not the cost itself the but opportunity cost of choosing one thing over another. Sure, APT is only 5 points, but that means I cannot take ACM or anything else to increase my battery of black die.

Devastor is a big head scratcher. 10 points? When will that ever see play...

Well I actually used it a few days ago but I doubt I'll be using it again . It did actually work to some extent but I went to the extreme (very stupid) and spent all my defense tokens...

The outcome was, well... Not very pretty (Although I got quite a decent shot at the MC80 before the end). The Devastator is just too expensive. What it needs is an imperial walex blissex to make it slightly more worthwhile.

Some of the old Imp title cards (definitely NOT Demolisher) are a bit expensive.

Warlord at 8pts? Not happening. At 4 maybe? Nah, probably still too expensive. Make it 2 pts or something like that.

Dominator at 12 pts - to slowly strip your already sluggish and vulnerable Vic? Please. Half price? Even less?

Insidious at 3 pts? OK in theory, but how often does it come into play? Compare it to 2 pts for JL and...

Some of the old Imp title cards (definitely NOT Demolisher) are a bit expensive.

Warlord at 8pts? Not happening. At 4 maybe? Nah, probably still too expensive. Make it 2 pts or something like that.

Dominator at 12 pts - to slowly strip your already sluggish and vulnerable Vic? Please. Half price? Even less?

Insidious at 3 pts? OK in theory, but how often does it come into play? Compare it to 2 pts for JL and...

I pretty much agree with all of this. I didn't run any titles in Wave 1, except for Demolisher.

Think rhymer is underpriced. He triple range for all ship in range of him

Think rhymer is underpriced. He triple range for all ship in range of him

Rhymer is a child of wave 1:

At the time he was a way of making it possible for bombers to actually deliver on target. Chirry (now hugely overpriced IMO) and Corrupter (also kind of lame now) are the same. With Intel Rhymer becomes even better, but many other cards fade in importance.

I still think Dominator has a place, as it can boost the Vic to ISD level of firepower at a lower price. And, essentially the repair command becomes an improved concentrate fire command (+2 blue dice).

Note, it is a pyric solution though.

I still think Dominator has a place, as it can boost the Vic to ISD level of firepower at a lower price. And, essentially the repair command becomes an improved concentrate fire command (+2 blue dice).

Note, it is a pyric solution though.

I've seen too many players kill their Vic using that card... and 12 - twelve - points!?

Ok, here is a better metric:

Firespray is 18 point for 2 blue bomber dice, 6 hp rogue. This is roughly equivalent to a +2 blue dice in any arc for one attack.

Dominator: 12 points for +2 blue, -2 shields any arc. So is 6 points worth -2 shields and loss of a squadron? How many times will you get to use it?

Devastator: 10 points for +X blue, -X defense tokens, front arc only. Do I even need to ask? You are not likely to be able to use it very often, especially not beyond the +2 needed to make it competitive.

Expanded Launchers: 13 points, +2 black, front arc only. Pretty limited due to range and the shoot then move mechanic vs Firespray move then shoot. Otherwise it is 6.5 pts per black die, arc limited.

TLRC: 8 points, convert red dice to 2 damage (~ 1.6 extra red die of damage), must spend evade, all arcs. Ummm, do I even need to ask? 8 points for + 1.6 red dice in all arcs (4.8 pts per die!), requiring use of weakest defense token, yes please!

Slaved Turrets: 6 points, + 1 red die all arcs, only attack once. Ok value if you only plan to attack out of one arc.

Enhanced Armaments: 10 points, + 1 red on left and right arcs. Poor value for just one use per round, but great value if used for both attacks.

One thing we haven't mentioned is the colour of the dice, as red will always be triggered, and therefore blue and black dice should carry a further discount ( perhaps 1 round) to red.

Just to use round numbers, each red die is worth ~ 5 points. Therefore Dominator should be ~ 8 or fewer points, and Devastator ~4 (assumed you deliberately burned the contain token during first round of long range fighting [can you use a defense token if it does nothing?].).

Interestingly, Admiral Ackbar follows this pattern pretty well (4.75 points per red die, assuming 4 uses per round).

So yeah, anything with a cost > 5 points per die is are points poorly spent, excluding special card interactions.

So, having looked at these cards, what are your thoughts?

If we are going to step into this breach, I will pick out only the truly obvious cases in my eyes.

Imperials:

1. Demolisher is massively over-represented in strong Imperial lists. This indicates to me it is probably too good.
2. Rhymer. Same argument.

Rebels:

1. TRC is way too good when you can pair it with a Corvette. The 51 point CR90A with TRC is orders of magnitude more lethal than the 44 point without. It pushes the ship from an average damage of 1.5 at long range (2.25 with concentrate) to basically double that, for 7 points, and you have two evades. I think TRC was likely under-playtested and/or FFG did not account for the combinatoric effects of being able to swap out the worst die from a roll, not an average die.

If we are talking actual ships, this gets more complicated, but I can't recall the last time I saw a VSD-II. I am personally negative on non-titled Nebulons (maybe the answer is a negative point title with no other effects). I also think the Assault Frigate may be undercosted. Those are harder to measure, however. The upgrade cards and Rhymer I am more certain of.

Devastor is a big head scratcher. 10 points? When will that ever see play...

I'm intending to use it this Saturday at an event, with the intention that my ISD is there to absorb damage and soften targets up for a Dominator follow up. With that in mind, I don't mind (as much) my tokens getting burned out as I approach because that should give my return punch that bit more power to either outright destroy smaller Rebel ships or heavily weaken the defences on a bigger ship.

It only being front arc is a bit sad, and I wouldn't say no to it being cheaper!

Devastor is a big head scratcher. 10 points? When will that ever see play...

more power to either outright destroy smaller Rebel ships or heavily weaken the defences on a bigger ship.

Actually I did take out 2 corvettes with it (one full hull strength, 1 with a shield lost on the side and 1 damage card) in two shots on the same turn, having spent all my defense tokens and deciding I would "take a few with me!" as I was almost dead. The Devastator-charged shot blew the first one away, and then the normal 2nd shot from the front took out the other. To be fair, the rebel player had maneuvered his ships quite badly. The loss of the Devastator lost me the game anyway later in the round, so it didn't matter much.

Navigation commander is priced right. Very nice advantage to get that extra click and speed when needed and never have to see it wasted. reduces the choose to three while always giving you the most needed option available. I can really guess the correct other two commands based in the ship as the choose of the ship is usual down to three not four. Making my VSDI carrier put out squdron commands all day long until I turn to engineering but having the option of a navigation command is very nice. The rest of the commanders are priced two high because the navigation option is not equal to the rest.

Agree with all of green Knights point values. Would love to see and errata posted based on polling store and regional champions. "What cost who it take for you to see this card or that in the meta." Offer a card pack of $10 for those who actually want the correct printed cost and not just go by the errata. I think now that they are more understanding of the game they built it would be wise to do this before it is too late. The cards have great place interesting function but they just don't get played.

My only way around this is to create two non optimal lists and let the player who come over choose their fleet and I chose the one they didn't. It is the only way some of these overpriced, but interesting, cards get played.

SW7 ions synergize with Dominator and Devastator on a late activation/late game to the point of redunculuousness.

5 and 8 guaranteed damage max for the VSDII/ ISDII respectively. Yowzas.

RE: underused cards. We should have the next Vassal tournament be Fab's Glorious Random battles. This is what happens when the Imperial and Rebel commodores challenge each other to spice snorting over hyperspace!

RE: underused cards. We should have the next Vassal tournament be Fab's Glorious Random battles. This is what happens when the Imperial and Rebel commodores challenge each other to spice snorting over hyperspace!

I would play

Anything that alters the rules of the game is difficult to value.

Look at Demolisher:

Demolisher is valued simply because it essentially, for one attack, lets you shoot black dice at long range (move to close range), or ensures a double arc shot the second round. So, essentially it gives you an extra say 3 black dice per round, for 10 points. That is a little on the low side compared with expanded launchers (6.5 vs 3.3). Maybe they modelled it as 2.5 black dice, giving them a value of 4. however, I suspect this title was made exclusively to mitigate the negatives of a pure black dice ship. Just like Reikian and the MC30. How often do you see this ship without the title?

Rhymer is just absurdly good. Period. If you bring bombers, you should bring it, if you just bring fighters, you should strongly consider bringing it. However, would the Imperials bring bombers without it? I don't know why it isn't limited to the Bomber keyword. I don't know how to price it as it is dependent on the other fighters it is with. Rhymer will be a "must use".

TRC: it is the other upgrades that are overpriced. It is completely reasonable if you only use it once per round, eg Ackbar triggered 4 times, or EA triggered twice. But using it for a double arc shot though, and boom it is now 2.4 per red die, which is what those fast moving corvettes with 2 evades are good at.

Othe assessments:

Defiance: 5 points, + die of any color, all arcs, target must have activated. This is very straightforward. +1 die = 5 points the requirements to trigger is relatively low and controllable. Fairly priced and improves all arcs. CAN be activated twice, bringing cost down to 2.5, which is similar to TRC. Again, it is the other cards that are overpriced / arc limited that are the problem.

The two big ones that I see are Ackbar and Gallent Haven are both under priced. With the average Rebel fleet that I see (or should say saw as we hardly play anymore due I think to Ackbar) being five or six ships plus fighters he is giving 10 to 24 extra red dice a turn, he would be a steal at double the cost. And Gallent Haven I think is a two fold one if we send our fighters they end up doing no damage most of the time (do one, and it is canceled) and yet his attack with the ship and fighters kill them so fast. Most of or ships only have one anti-fighter dice tell they get up close so they have to take at lest two turns of the Ackbar fire to attack fighters, at that point fighters or ships it is a lose/lose situation.

I actually think that the basic Tie's a priced about right when you consider what Swarm allows them to do with Howlrunner.Throw in Dengar and you've go something that can throw the same dice as an interceptor and counter. Now, that being said, if I can squeeze out an extra 3 points I will ALWAYS take an Interceptor instead. On the other hand, given how much X-wings can do I go back and forth on them. On the one hand for a ship that can bomber AND escort is seems a little like they should be 15 points BUT considering how fast they can go down to a properly constructed Imperial fighter swarm I think maybe the price is about right.

I think Demolisher is priced about right given the hull value of the GSD and I think APT are way under priced or ACM are way over priced. I think 7 points for both feels about right but having APT for 2 points less feels a little off-balance. It's the

I am not sure what your thought process is here, the X-wing is not over priced as it will die quickly to a "properly constructed Imperial fighter swarm" yet the basic Tie is priced right even though it will die quickly to any fighter and/or ship fire?

Before intel, x-wings were overcosted, a-wings under. Post intel, I think all is about right in the world. I just wish x-wings could have a blue bomber die instead of that fickle red one.

The two big ones that I see are Ackbar and Gallent Haven are both under priced. With the average Rebel fleet that I see (or should say saw as we hardly play anymore due I think to Ackbar) being five or six ships plus fighters he is giving 10 to 24 extra red dice a turn, he would be a steal at double the cost. And Gallent Haven I think is a two fold one if we send our fighters they end up doing no damage most of the time (do one, and it is canceled) and yet his attack with the ship and fighters kill them so fast. Most of or ships only have one anti-fighter dice tell they get up close so they have to take at lest two turns of the Ackbar fire to attack fighters, at that point fighters or ships it is a lose/lose situation.

I actually think that the basic Tie's a priced about right when you consider what Swarm allows them to do with Howlrunner.Throw in Dengar and you've go something that can throw the same dice as an interceptor and counter. Now, that being said, if I can squeeze out an extra 3 points I will ALWAYS take an Interceptor instead. On the other hand, given how much X-wings can do I go back and forth on them. On the one hand for a ship that can bomber AND escort is seems a little like they should be 15 points BUT considering how fast they can go down to a properly constructed Imperial fighter swarm I think maybe the price is about right.

I think Demolisher is priced about right given the hull value of the GSD and I think APT are way under priced or ACM are way over priced. I think 7 points for both feels about right but having APT for 2 points less feels a little off-balance. It's the

I am not sure what your thought process is here, the X-wing is not over priced as it will die quickly to a "properly constructed Imperial fighter swarm" yet the basic Tie is priced right even though it will die quickly to any fighter and/or ship fire?

The same Gallant Haven that only works on squadrons right next to it? Sure, it's a neat trick when combined with Jan and X-wings, but boy does it limit your offensive squadron options.

I honestly haven't seen a Gallant Haven since my first wave 1 friendly...

But the way fighter tactics are going I think it might be worth reconsidering!

This is how I think it should be to avoid "winning fleet builds" and add more variety:

Clusters Bombs: 2

Redundant Shields: 6

Electronic Countermeasures: 9

Leading Shots: 5

Overload Pulse: 7

SW-7 Ion Bateries: 6

NK-7 Ion Canons: 9

Point Defense reroute: 4

Quad Laser Turrets: 4

Adm. Chiraneau: 7

Nav. Off. , Wing Commander, Tact. Expert, Eng. Captain: 4

Intel Officer: 9

Wulff & Raymus: 8

Expanded Launchers: 10

Rapid Reload: 6

Insidious: 2

Devastator: 8

Warlord: 4

Corrupter: 3

Dominator: 9

Dodonna’s pride: 4

Home One: 10

Independence: 6

Defiance: 7

Salvation: 5

Enhanced armament: 8

XI-7 Turbolasers: 10

XX-9 Turbolasers: 4

Turbolasers reroute circuits: 10

H9 Turbolasers: 7

Gunnery Teams: 10

Sensor Team: 3

Ordnance experts: 5

Ruthless Strategist: 3

Adm. Ackbar: 40

B-wing: 13

Keyan: 19

Jan Ors: 21

YT-2400:17

YT-1300: 12

Rhymer: 18

FireSpray-31: 19

Dengar: 22

Agressor: 17