But his dice are not added until the Modify Dice step.

Yeah I get that, and as I said in my edit, I get doing things the right way...

However, you go to measure LOS on your long range portside shot

Sure... But you can you measure arc and range other than in the attack phase? I know you can't in X-Wing but I could be wrong about Armada.

So unless I'm wrong... Before you declare your target or can measure range to him, you have to declare if you're going to use Ackbar or not. If you do, that means you cannot shoot out the front or rear arcs. So that clear front shot wasn't an option before you measured range to anything.

If you can measure range outside the attack phase, then wouldn't you know if you had a shot out the side or not before you declared him?

Edit: TLDR... Don't you have to declare Ackbar before you pick a target and measure range?

If you see someone adding dice before the initial roll, you could also feasibly demand they reroll their pool with the proper amount of dice, since that was an illegal number of dice.

It probably doesn't make a difference, whether Ackbar is added before or after the initial roll. But just follow the rules, otherwise you'll get stuff like that. ^^

otherwise you'll get stuff like that. ^^

I can see your point, it's like in X-Wing moving all the ships in a swarm and taking actions for them as a group instead of one at a time. Although that can actually lead to real tactical advantages it still should be done the right way, because it's the right way.

Ackbar is declared at the Start, yes -

But his dice are not added until the Modify Dice step.

Daveddos point is:

Imagine you have 3 targets available with a CR90 - one front, one left, one right...

You activate, and declare your use of Ackbar, expecting awesome slash shots.

However, you go to measure LOS on your long range portside shot and... ****, just barely obstructed.... Because you take your red die... then have to put it away, due to the obstruction.... You dont get to shoot at all from the portside...

Then you measure the Starbaord and.... Disaster! same thing...

And because you declared ackbar beforehand, you are not even able tyo take that clear front shot... dammit...

We get the point, we just point out that with ackbar, since you declare beforehand, you might as well roll battery + ackbar in one go. Speed up things and whatnot.

Bad example btw. If obstructed there is no pool at all, so you don't roll any dice.

This is all horridly pedantic, about being horridly pedantic, but technically correct IS the best kind of Correct - at least, when it comes to rules discussions.

You can measure Range and LOS at any time - as long as you're not slowing down play or getting in your opponents way during their turn by doing it.

So everyone is correct!

However, Rules are about being completely correct.

That's all.

Because you're certainly not wrong with the general idea, VanorDM - and honestly, itssomething that a lot of people just let go because we're all Flying Casual .

But Technical is the most correct

Bad example btw. If obstructed there is no pool at all, so you don't roll any dice.

If I am going to be completely, technically correct.

You do Gather your Pool.

However, the Obstruction interrupts the "Gather and Roll your Pool." by saying to Discard it Before you Roll .

So you Gather it, but it immediately empties.

So you still gathered it. But it ended up empty

Technically correct, but well into the realm of the uselessly pedantic :-D

Absolutely No Dis-agreeance here

You can measure Range and LOS at any time

Ok I thought so, but going through the PDF's I couldn't find where it said that, so I defaulted to X-Wing.

But my point was this... Since you declare Ackbar at the start of the attack phase, you have to declare him before you pick a target to shoot at. Since you can check range/LoS first then using him isn't a risk.

But you should never find yourself in a situation like in your example. Because if you don't bother to check first, once you start your attack phase, you had to declare Ackbar before you picked your target, or else you've actually gone past the point where you can decide to use him or not.

I hope that makes sense.

Ackbar is declared at the Start, yes -

But his dice are not added until the Modify Dice step.

Daveddos point is:

Imagine you have 3 targets available with a CR90 - one front, one left, one right...

You activate, and declare your use of Ackbar, expecting awesome slash shots.

However, you go to measure LOS on your long range portside shot and... ****, just barely obstructed.... Because you take your red die... then have to put it away, due to the obstruction.... You dont get to shoot at all from the portside...

Then you measure the Starbaord and.... Disaster! same thing...

And because you declared ackbar beforehand, you are not even able tyo take that clear front shot... dammit...

We get the point, we just point out that with ackbar, since you declare beforehand, you might as well roll battery + ackbar in one go. Speed up things and whatnot.

If my opponent insists on doing that to "speed things up" I will tell them that I reserve the right to demand they reroll their attack pool because they are breaking the rules in doing so.

There are many things to be absolutely pedantic about.

I don't really believe this is one of them.

I mean, it is completely spelled out how to move a Ship in regards to the Maneuver Tool, and if you don't follow it almost religiously , you're technically making illegal moves...

There is a bit point about "Why Bother?" when it comes to Casual Games.

Honestly, the only reason why I don't drink more Beer while playing is because I'm now at risk of being on Camera, and I have to keep some dignity until my golden age.

Ackbar is declared at the Start, yes -

But his dice are not added until the Modify Dice step.

Daveddos point is:

Imagine you have 3 targets available with a CR90 - one front, one left, one right...

You activate, and declare your use of Ackbar, expecting awesome slash shots.

However, you go to measure LOS on your long range portside shot and... ****, just barely obstructed.... Because you take your red die... then have to put it away, due to the obstruction.... You dont get to shoot at all from the portside...

Then you measure the Starbaord and.... Disaster! same thing...

And because you declared ackbar beforehand, you are not even able tyo take that clear front shot... dammit...

We get the point, we just point out that with ackbar, since you declare beforehand, you might as well roll battery + ackbar in one go. Speed up things and whatnot.

If my opponent insists on doing that to "speed things up" I will tell them that I reserve the right to demand they reroll their attack pool because they are breaking the rules in doing so.

Well, maybe your opponent is too fast for you? Rolling his pool and then adding ackbar before you can even react? Seeing as you can't affect the dice at this point...How does it matter?

Ackbar is declared at the Start, yes -

But his dice are not added until the Modify Dice step.

Daveddos point is:

Imagine you have 3 targets available with a CR90 - one front, one left, one right...

You activate, and declare your use of Ackbar, expecting awesome slash shots.

However, you go to measure LOS on your long range portside shot and... ****, just barely obstructed.... Because you take your red die... then have to put it away, due to the obstruction.... You dont get to shoot at all from the portside...

Then you measure the Starbaord and.... Disaster! same thing...

And because you declared ackbar beforehand, you are not even able tyo take that clear front shot... dammit...

We get the point, we just point out that with ackbar, since you declare beforehand, you might as well roll battery + ackbar in one go. Speed up things and whatnot.

If my opponent insists on doing that to "speed things up" I will tell them that I reserve the right to demand they reroll their attack pool because they are breaking the rules in doing so.

Well, maybe your opponent is too fast for you? Rolling his pool and then adding ackbar before you can even react? Seeing as you can't affect the dice at this point...How does it matter?

Because we're playing a game where CF Dial + Token need to be spent simultaneously if they are both to be spent, so the timings matter even in a single step. Rules are the rules.

Wow you guys seriously shatte all over my thread :-D

To be fair, I tried really hard to make it as much my thread right away as well, by answering Quickly in the first place

Ackbar is declared at the Start, yes -

But his dice are not added until the Modify Dice step.

Daveddos point is:

Imagine you have 3 targets available with a CR90 - one front, one left, one right...

You activate, and declare your use of Ackbar, expecting awesome slash shots.

However, you go to measure LOS on your long range portside shot and... ****, just barely obstructed.... Because you take your red die... then have to put it away, due to the obstruction.... You dont get to shoot at all from the portside...

Then you measure the Starbaord and.... Disaster! same thing...

And because you declared ackbar beforehand, you are not even able tyo take that clear front shot... dammit...

We get the point, we just point out that with ackbar, since you declare beforehand, you might as well roll battery + ackbar in one go. Speed up things and whatnot.

If my opponent insists on doing that to "speed things up" I will tell them that I reserve the right to demand they reroll their attack pool because they are breaking the rules in doing so.

Well, maybe your opponent is too fast for you? Rolling his pool and then adding ackbar before you can even react? Seeing as you can't affect the dice at this point...How does it matter?

Because we're playing a game where CF Dial + Token need to be spent simultaneously if they are both to be spent, so the timings matter even in a single step. Rules are the rules.

Huge difference - the dial/token rule matters.

The ackbar thing does not.

1. Announce ackbar

2. Gather 3 red from your command cruiser

3. Add two more red from ackbar

4. Roll

How is that different from rolling 3, than quickly tossing in two more?

Ackbar is declared at the Start, yes -

But his dice are not added until the Modify Dice step.

Daveddos point is:

Imagine you have 3 targets available with a CR90 - one front, one left, one right...

You activate, and declare your use of Ackbar, expecting awesome slash shots.

However, you go to measure LOS on your long range portside shot and... ****, just barely obstructed.... Because you take your red die... then have to put it away, due to the obstruction.... You dont get to shoot at all from the portside...

Then you measure the Starbaord and.... Disaster! same thing...

And because you declared ackbar beforehand, you are not even able tyo take that clear front shot... dammit...

We get the point, we just point out that with ackbar, since you declare beforehand, you might as well roll battery + ackbar in one go. Speed up things and whatnot.

If my opponent insists on doing that to "speed things up" I will tell them that I reserve the right to demand they reroll their attack pool because they are breaking the rules in doing so.

Well, maybe your opponent is too fast for you? Rolling his pool and then adding ackbar before you can even react? Seeing as you can't affect the dice at this point...How does it matter?

Because we're playing a game where CF Dial + Token need to be spent simultaneously if they are both to be spent, so the timings matter even in a single step. Rules are the rules.

Huge difference - the dial/token rule matters.

The ackbar thing does not.

1. Announce ackbar

2. Gather 3 red from your command cruiser

3. Add two more red from ackbar

4. Roll

How is that different from rolling 3, than quickly tossing in two more?

Another thing to consider is other abilities that effect the add. Let's say you have a CF token and roll your red dice use the token to reroll an extra accuracy then use Ackbar and roll 2 blanks. Order of operations matters

Hmmm now that's interesting. So does this mean Ackbar's red dice cannot be modified by a CF token (or any other means)? Is there an order of operations within the modify dice step? If you add Ackbar's dice as your first action within the modify dice step, are they now themselves eligible to be modified?

There is indeed an Order of Operations in the Modify Dice step.

Its "If its in the Modify Dice Step, you Choose the Best **** Order you want."

So let's say, you've got Ackbar and Defiance.

You've got a Concentrate Fire Dial, Token and you're Firing at a Ship taht's Already Activated. You also have the intention of using both the Dial and Token.

You roll your base Pool.

Then you decide to roll the Ackbar Dice (An Add), so you Do so.

You then use your Defiance to Add a Black Die (Add), and Roll it

You then use your Concentrte Fire to add a Die of any colour that's already there, so you add another Black! (Add)

And then decide to reroll one of your Crappy Dice with your Token...

Boom.

There is indeed an Order of Operations in the Modify Dice step.

Its "If its in the Modify Dice Step, you Choose the Best **** Order you want."

So let's say, you've got Ackbar and Defiance.

You've got a Concentrate Fire Dial, Token and you're Firing at a Ship taht's Already Activated. You also have the intention of using both the Dial and Token.

You roll your base Pool.

Then you decide to roll the Ackbar Dice (An Add), so you Do so.

You then use your Defiance to Add a Black Die (Add), and Roll it

You then use your Concentrte Fire to add a Die of any colour that's already there, so you add another Black! (Add)

And then decide to reroll one of your Crappy Dice with your Token...

Boom.

I was referring to one very, very specific thing: Ackbar dice.

You announce Ackbar before shooting starts. You can't take it back once you actually roll the dice.

So I claimed you might as well roll the 2 extra red along with the rest of the battery dice (I'm quite sure 99,99987% of players do it that way), because for all practical purposes (and most pedantic ones) it doesn't matter. If you roll X dice and then quickly add 2 more, or roll X+2 with one toss.

This does, of course, reply on you having a valid shot in the first place (so that example of an obstructed side-arc CR90 shot gets cancelled before you roll anything).

I made no mention of CF or any other circumstance that add or modify dice*.

* Though I'm sure that in most games (except perhaps during high-level competitive play) it would be OK to add up all your attack dice, as long as you announce to your opponent where they come from. Example: "3 red, 3 blue from my MC80, 2 extra red from Ackbar, one black from Defiance, another black from Most Wanted - and I'll use my CF dial to add a third black. I'll spend my CF token as well. So that's 5 red, 3 blue and 3 black, with the option of a re-roll. Right side to left side of your Demolisher." Followed by the sound of 11 dice landing on the table and one GSD going bye-bye.

I prefer to insist that all dice modification effects take place in the proper step, because if you start taking shortcuts it can kind of snowball into more shortcuts, and then all of a sudden you have someone getting upset at me because they end up breaking the rules.

For example, I played against someone who was running Ackbar, and he was in the habit of just adding the dice to the initial roll. One turn later in the game, he activated an Assault Frigate that had a CF Dial, CF Token, and announced Ackbar for his attack. So, he went ahead and added 3 red dice (2 ackbar, 1 CF Dial) to his primary roll. Upon seeing that he rolled like ****, he then reached for his CF Token to spend it, and I reminded him that the Token needed to be spent at the same time as the dial.

One is an interesting phenomenon with rolling more dice than less dice and how it affects outcomes.

But that's not an outcome anyone can actually control. But if you are worried about it then you should roll one die at a time only.

Another thing to consider is other abilities that effect the add.

Yes and I imagine that a situation where you want to roll fewer dice at a time comes up semi-often. If I'm shooting at a ship with a AF Mk2 that can only take 1 more damage, can't brace or redirect, I'm not going to want to add the die from the CF, or other optional sources because I will likely want to save them for latter. Because odds are pretty good I'll get that one damage I need.

However with Ackbar, those aren't dice I can save for later, I can't take the 2 from this attack and use them in another attack. There is as far as I know nothing in the game mechanics that would cause those dice to be treated differently than the dice listed on the ship card itself.

That said, best practices are to treat them as separate dice, because that's what the rules say and at some point they may be treated differently.

What confused me about what daveddo was I thought he was saying that if you grabbed 3 dice when shooing out the side arc of that CR-90, you had at that point locked yourself into using Ackbar, and if you found out then that your shot was obstructed you lost the opportunity to shoot from the front.

Which I think was a misunderstanding on my part, but my point was, that with Ackbar by the time you gather dice it's far too late to decide if you're going to use Ackbar or not.

Actually, while they could do that, it would still be against the rules and limiting to themselves. What if they wanted to add a Blue later for the Accuracy but instead add the black? They leave themselves in a position that they don't get the option.

They are also changing the mathematics of rolling said dice.

They leave themselves in a position that they don't get the option.

I think that's the best reason to do it correctly. Doing it the right way because it's the right way is fine. But in this case it doing it the right way also gives you the most options.

They are also changing the mathematics of rolling said dice.

Maybe I don't get this. But are you talking about the effect of the dice bouncing into each other and such and that impacting the final result? Because if that's your issue, then do you roll each die one at a time?

Because otherwise rolling 3 dice or 13 dice at the same time isn't really change how random the results are. If anything rolling more dice is going to increase the randomness.