Destiny Points are one of the system cornerstones and, IMHO, it's shouldn't be touched at alll.

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. And I never said it was a *good* idea The best solution remains learning how to use DPs seamlessly, but if that's not going to happen, maybe there are alternatives. To whit, alternative #2:

At the beginning of the session, the pool starts with one Destiny Point per player. Then, have each player roll 2 Force dice. The number of white pips generated equals the number of Destiny Points added to the pool. These DPs are only available for the session, and once used they are discarded.

Flip a destiny point to have reinforcements show up to an encounter you need the PCs to run from. "You stand victorious over the fallen enemies, however, an alarm has been raised and you hear the cacophony of many booted feet charging this way."

Flip one to have something sinister happen. "The blaster door shuts behind you and you here an ominous crunch in the operating mechanisms."

Flip one when a player tries to pull "But I/you totally did/didn't said/say that!" "Sadly, in the wildness of the current events, some details were unobserved until it was too late."

For what its worth, these are things most GMs should already be doing. In fact, when I first started with this system, I had reservations about the whole "forced narrative" aspect. Sure, many like it because it pushes them. But as someone who was already doing this, and with players who were engaged as well, it was problematic.

In essence, instead of thinking up cool stuff to do...we felt tied to the dice, waiting to see what the results were and then frantically trying to come up with appropriate uses of the resulting threats and advantages. It has helped some, that we have changed the definitions a little, even if its just in our own minds. So now, success and failures are WHAT you do, but the threats and advantages are HOW you execute your actions. I still personally would prefer the narrative to come before the dice, and for that reason I often award a bonus advantage or even success to players who do a great job describing their actions, before they ever roll the dice. Its still not perfect, but its closer to functional for our group.

Flip one when you want have an NPC do something "minor" that you don't need/want to roll the dice for. I use this one a lot to have things happen in the background in reaction to PC actions. Mostly when the PCs do something to bring attention to themselves. This would be when an informer takes notice, and passes a message along, or for later when investigators are trying to determine what occurred, having the beggar remember some scathing details. These help to mitigate the deus ex machina feel when bad guys suddenly show up at the worst possible moment.

Flip one when you realize you forgot something absolutely critical on your BBEG, then add it. This could be a piece of gear, or whatever. But since players have to use a destiny point to do this once they're involved in an encounter and it's too late to go back to the store, the BBEG should follow that limitation as well.

Whenever the GM needs to "hand-wave" things into/out of existence or lay down the "this is how it works at my table" situation, destiny points can help out to smooth things over. Especially in situations where a ruling over something might perturb a player or two, at least they'll have another destiny point or two on their side.

These are all pretty good ideas for GM destiny point usage. And if you have any experience with the 2d20 system (Mutant Chronicles, the new Conan RPG, etc), which is also designed by Jay Little, you can see a refinement of many of these concepts. In fact, after reading up on these systems, it helped me make a few minor changes on how I wanted to run the SWRPG, and take it closer to a game I wanted to run.

I still personally would prefer the narrative to come before the dice, and for that reason I often award a bonus advantage or even success to players who do a great job describing their actions, before they ever roll the dice.

That's exactly what the boost dice are for.

I've flipped a Dark to Light and did a "the villain manages to slip away in the smoke!" No reason why a GM can't use destiny points for other things besides upgrading. Also, Dark Siders don't have to be sith to use destiny points. There are a lot of road ragers out there that automatically add a dark destiny point to the real life destiny pool. No reason they can't be put in your game as well.

That's exactly what the boost dice are for.

Yes. But it wasn't accomplishing what I wanted.

I still grant boost dice for making an effort. If its particularly clever or appropriate, I grant whatever I think its worth.

The system touts itself as narrative, but it has a large number of rules and mechanics that push it into a hybrid of narrative and simulationist. To me it felt schizophrenic: On one hand stating that it encouraged narrative play, on the other hand saying "you can only do this cool narrative stuff if you roll this and this and this". Now, I fully expect many to disagree with me, particularly here, but I'm just relaying my personal perception, and the feedback from my game group.

Again, it was a matter of some minor (and not so minor) changes, but it also involved changing our group's perspective and expectations.

The system touts itself as narrative, but it has a large number of rules and mechanics that push it into a hybrid of narrative and simulationist.

I agree in some places, I recently said something similar about the way the published modules break down the XP award based on certain events coming to pass or behaving in a certain way...which seems the opposite of how I play because the players are always injecting new ideas, threads, goals, or events. If I awarded XP based on the module's advice, they'd miss half the stuff, and do plenty of other things that aren't accounted for.

On one hand stating that it encouraged narrative play, on the other hand saying "you can only do this cool narrative stuff if you roll this and this and this".

I'm not sure I understand that objection. The results of rolls are simply a scaffold for judging the scale of impact. It's just a way of telling the player "You may have wanted to mow down the forest with your heavy repeater, but after hitting two stormtroopers, the vibration knocks the power pack loose." Otherwise you have no way of judging what happens.

I agree in some places, I recently said something similar about the way the published modules break down the XP award based on certain events coming to pass or behaving in a certain way...which seems the opposite of how I play because the players are always injecting new ideas, threads, goals, or events. If I awarded XP based on the module's advice, they'd miss half the stuff, and do plenty of other things that aren't accounted for.

I've noticed the same thing. The support structures and mechanics can very easily feel restrictive, rather than enhancing the experience. For those who can roll with it, or who are still new to it all, it is probably much less intrusive.

To our group it was consistently immersion breaking. Not so much as to be a deal breaker (no system is perfect, after all), as it was that it didn't live up to its hype in our experience.

I'm not sure I understand that objection. The results of rolls are simply a scaffold for judging the scale of impact. It's just a way of telling the player "You may have wanted to mow down the forest with your heavy repeater, but after hitting two stormtroopers, the vibration knocks the power pack loose." Otherwise you have no way of judging what happens.

It was a question of perspective for us. In the simulationist games we were most familiar with, any narrative descriptions were purely voluntary, without much in the way of mechanical restrictors or enhancers. In the narrative games we had played, the narrative aspects most often came into play BEFORE the dice roll. So players would invoke Aspects or tap traits in order to shape the narrative.

SWRPG has the feel of a simulationist game (identify skill/difficulty-->roll dice-->interpret result), but threats and advantages as a result of the dice roll meant narrative descriptions had to come after the dice roll. Rather than allowing us to shape the narrative, SWRPGs systems made us feel like we had to scramble to fit the narrative into what the dice had rolled.

I don't know if I have explained it to a satisfactory degree, especially if you yourself do not consider it to be a problem.

In any event, all we really did was modify the process a bit. As a part of the "identify skill/difficulty", I also ask my players "how" they want to carry out their actions. Are they maneuvering for advantage? Suppressing the enemy? Intimidating them with their sheer superiority? Do you want to take advantage of the environment somehow? I made a few systemic tweaks to encourage looking forward, rather than sitting with a (potentially) very strange roll, and desperately trying to explain it. To re-iterate, success/fail remained as "what" you do, and threat/advantage became the "how".

So far, this has really cut down on analysis paralysis caused by threats/advantages, and a generally smoother gameplay for us.

I don't know if I have explained it to a satisfactory degree, especially if you yourself do not consider it to be a problem.

Well, I could be missing it. But I don't see how you're playing any differently than I am based on your description. I'm always asking the players to look forward. The "how" is always important and always comes first. The impact of that description is then informed by the examples in the book. Somebody might describe what they want to do, and I'll consider that it might have a similar impact to an Aim maneuver. So I'll do a quick translation and just say it costs a maneuver, and they get a boost die. Any of your examples can be applied in the same way:

Are they maneuvering for advantage? - costs a maneuver and they get a boost die

Suppressing the enemy? - they can certainly try: if they get two advantages it means it worked and they can apply setback to the enemy's next roll; or if they didn't get enough advantages and you were generous, you could translate the hit into suppression and still offer the setback at the expense of a damaging shot.

Intimidating them with their sheer superiority? - that's a social coercion roll, use the mechanics for Scathing Tirade

Do you want to take advantage of the environment somehow? - this covers a huge range, but it can easily go back to the Aim maneuver...maybe you want to shoot up the dust in front of the stormtroopers so it creates a cloud which gives you cover to make your getaway...so it costs a maneuver and you get two setback (or you can Aim again and reduce the penalty to one setback), and if you succeed they can't see you for a turn.

I guess with my group we haven't really had a post-roll paralysis after the first few sessions, everybody is eager to receive that boost die or the Triumph upgrade, or cause a crit or trigger a blast...

I don't know if I have explained it to a satisfactory degree, especially if you yourself do not consider it to be a problem.

Well, I could be missing it. But I don't see how you're playing any differently than I am based on your description. I'm always asking the players to look forward. The "how" is always important and always comes first. The impact of that description is then informed by the examples in the book. Somebody might describe what they want to do, and I'll consider that it might have a similar impact to an Aim maneuver. So I'll do a quick translation and just say it costs a maneuver, and they get a boost die. Any of your examples can be applied in the same way:

I guess with my group we haven't really had a post-roll paralysis after the first few sessions, everybody is eager to receive that boost die or the Triumph upgrade, or cause a crit or trigger a blast...

From the sound of it, you have found the system much more intuitive than we did. And, considering the forum we're on, that's likely to be a majority view.

Advantages/Threats are a resource generated by the dice roll. Part of the problem is that these resources are generated and spent independent of the pass/fail mechanic, which lead to situations our group felt were un-intuitive, and in some cases could touch on the absurd. Added to which, the variety of things you can spend this resource on is varied and extensive, ranging from tables worth of choices, to activating weapon traits and "freestyling" it. The final result was a mechanic that, for our group, restricted rather than promoted narrative gameplay.

While that's likely to be a minority view around here, I don't think ours is a unique experience with the system.

Also, let me just emphasize again that it wasn't a dealbreaker, so much as a disappointment with how the system advertised itself, versus how it actually worked out for us. When going into a narrative system, we assumed the mechanics would help us to focus on the story. Instead, we found mechanics that require a degree of system mastery that borders on the simulationist.

It felt jarring, and required some adjustments.

And if you have any experience with the 2d20 system (Mutant Chronicles, the new Conan RPG, etc), which is also designed by Jay Little, you can see a refinement of many of these concepts. In fact, after reading up on these systems, it helped me make a few minor changes on how I wanted to run the SWRPG, and take it closer to a game I wanted to run.

I will give it a read.

Dont forget that NPC darkside force users flip points to use light side force pips.

I will give it a read.

The section that I felt was particularly relevant were Dark Symmetry Points. Specifically in that they are used to:

a.) Trigger NPC special abilities, which can be adapted to particularly powerful talents. So, True Aim or Deadly Accuracy (for a single attack), are no longer just for the PCs. Obviously you can give a Nemesis or Rival whatever talents you deem appropriate, but by spending a Destiny Point you emphasize the lethality. Its a way to up the stakes that I think is more interesting than upgrading dice pools, and will make certain NPCs rightly feared. You already do this with Force powers anyway, so I thought to myself, why not make use of it on a broader level.

b.) Interrupting PC actions. This functions best within the 2d20 system, but it can be a great way to throw a curve into the initiative system, perhaps to simulate a surge as enemies push forward, or make an attempt to prevent an important PC action. Again, its all about upping the stakes and increasing the drama of the moment.

c.) Triggering complications, caused by traits, old war wounds or something situational, again the system incorporates this nicely in 2d20. I use this in the SWRPG to trigger temporary encounter based penalties. If possible, tie it to personality traits or Obligation/Morality issues. Additionally, I have used it to inflict the effects of a Critical Wound for the duration of a combat. I especially like doing this with some kind of a surprise attack, whether its a drugged needle applied by a courtesan, or a sniper from off the map, it can be a nice way to switch things up. The effects can be removed or disappear automatically when the encounter is resolved.

All of these are things you could do anyway, thanks to GM Fiat. Or just to be a jerk. The DP point makes that a bit more palatable.

Another option I have used is to "award" something particularly awesome that the players have achieved. The example I used the other night was a character rolling five successes (on 3 green dice) with a hijacked heavy repeating blaster. He absolutely demolished the enemy reinforcements making their way down the mountainside, but then I flipped a DP and told them that all the heavy fire had started a rockslide. The group had to scramble madly to get themselves and the hostages they were rescuing to safety.

Dont forget that NPC darkside force users flip points to use light side force pips.

And I think that something that gets overlooked is the (positive) impact this might have on players. In a system like this, where hard mechanics don't rule the day, I think it actually may be a little relieving/comforting to the players sitting around the table to know that there's kind of a "finite limit," so to speak, of how much the Force will flow their direction. It's mechanics that's rooted in the flavor and feel of the game...and vice-versa.