No, you cannot reroll dice vs. Omega Leader if he has you TL'd. I know that. My question pertains to ships like Hobbie specifically: Can you still spend a Target Lock you have on Omega Leader, but reroll no dice? similar to how you can spend a stress token on Keyan Farlander to change 0 Focus results.

My thought is yes, as in how I have read it, spending the TL is not the modification that Omega Leader prevents, it is the rerolling of the dice.

Yes and no - modifying zero dice would still be a dice modification - so you could not spend a target lock, focus, or stress (i.e keyan) to modify zero dice.

You could however spend a target lock to fire a torp or missile as the spending of the lock is a condition of the attack (for most of them) - not a dice modification

Spending a target lock is not modifying dice. It gives you the opportunity to modify dice, and then Omega leader turns that opportunity into nothing.

From what I can see this is entirely ambiguous (although I'm leaning towards the target lock not being spent due to the first sentence under Modifying Dice in the RRG) and I can't find serious support for either position posted above without any loopholes. I recommend sending a rules question to FFG.

Here is how it works. This works for spending anything - target lock, focus, evade, abilities like Han, or the R7 Astromech w/ Tarn.

"Omega Leader" Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

So, you can't spend a focus and/or evade to dodge an attack, or spend a focus and/or target lock to generate additional hits or crits. Tarn can't spend a target lock to force you to reroll your attack dice.

As for spending something to change 0 results, well you said it with Keyan Farlander. The FAQ says you can spend a stress token to change 0. So why not spend a Target Lock to change 0? Or have something spend a focus to change 0 so Chaser gets a focus?

Basically, why can't you spend the modification cost (Stress, Target Lock, Focus) and then have 0 dice modified because of Omega Leader?

If you can spend a focus when you have rolled no eyes, I don't see why you can't spend a TL to reroll no dice. And you can. Spending the token is not the modification. Modifying the dice is.

Note that the rules do not say - "you may do nothing and spend your tokens anyway" - they say that you may spend a token to modify zero dice.

So effects that trigger from tokens being spent notwithstanding, modifying zero dice is still a dice modification, not simply doing nothing - and you can't modify dice against Omega Leader

I think you could spend it but it has no effect resulting in 0 dice re-rolls. My basis for this is that FFG has ruled that with accuracy corrector you can cancel the dice results but not add, as adding would be the modification. In this case I see the re-rolling as the modification and the target lock spent is the payment. Target locks and focus\evade tokens are different in this respect.

Note that the rules do not say - "you may do nothing and spend your tokens anyway" - they say that you may spend a token to modify zero dice.

So effects that trigger from tokens being spent notwithstanding, modifying zero dice is still a dice modification, not simply doing nothing - and you can't modify dice against Omega Leader

I'd argue that modifying 0 dice is the same as not modifying dice. It's functionally identical. Same deal with sticking C3P0 on a 0 agility ship, you don't roll 0 dice (getting a chance to guess 0 with 3P0 and get a free evade), you don't roll dice at all.

And besides, he still doesn't stop you from spending the tokens. Spending the tokens is not modifying the dice, they're separate parts of the process.

Note that the rules do not say - "you may do nothing and spend your tokens anyway" - they say that you may spend a token to modify zero dice.

So effects that trigger from tokens being spent notwithstanding, modifying zero dice is still a dice modification, not simply doing nothing - and you can't modify dice against Omega Leader

The RRG on page 13 is quite clear that modifying dice consists of: Adding Dice Results, Changing Dice Results, and Rerolling Dice.These effects can be activated by spending tokens or resolving card effects, but spending the token is not part of modifying dice.

You can spend tokens to achieve other effects in the game that modifying dice. Spend is even a term in the RRG, described on page 18, and it simply tells you what to do when you spend a token. It does not what spending the token allows you to do. That depends entirely on the situation. And spending tokens can trigger other effects even during the modify attack/defense dice steps of combat, such as Garven Dreis. And it is a well established fact that you can spend the token and not modify any dice,

Omega Leader prevents dice modifications, not token spending. There are other pilot abilities that specifically prevent spending a token during combat. These are different abilities. If Omega Leader was intended to block this, it would have been worded so you couldn't spend tokens and resolve card abilities that modified dice.

Note that the rules do not say - "you may do nothing and spend your tokens anyway" - they say that you may spend a token to modify zero dice.

So effects that trigger from tokens being spent notwithstanding, modifying zero dice is still a dice modification, not simply doing nothing - and you can't modify dice against Omega Leader

The RRG on page 13 is quite clear that modifying dice consists of: Adding Dice Results, Changing Dice Results, and Rerolling Dice.These effects can be activated by spending tokens or resolving card effects, but spending the token is not part of modifying dice.

You can spend tokens to achieve other effects in the game that modifying dice. Spend is even a term in the RRG, described on page 18, and it simply tells you what to do when you spend a token. It does not what spending the token allows you to do. That depends entirely on the situation. And spending tokens can trigger other effects even during the modify attack/defense dice steps of combat, such as Garven Dreis. And it is a well established fact that you can spend the token and not modify any dice,

Omega Leader prevents dice modifications, not token spending. There are other pilot abilities that specifically prevent spending a token during combat. These are different abilities. If Omega Leader was intended to block this, it would have been worded so you couldn't spend tokens and resolve card abilities that modified dice.

I'm not disputing whether or not tokens can be spend for purposes that do not involve modifying dice.

But, for example, if you spend a target lock on a primary weapon attack and don't reroll dice, you are not simply doing nothing, you are performing a reroll

It just so happens that the number of dice you have chosen to reroll is zero.

This is spelled out on page 3 of the FAQ under the Spending Tokens header.

In my opinion, I think one of the biggest mistakes FFG made was allowing the spending of tokens to modify 0 results. They should have declared a minimum of at least 1 relevant result. Keyan being able to lose a stress token when he hasn't rolled any focus results is a prime example. It just opens the door for abuse.

Note that the rules do not say - "you may do nothing and spend your tokens anyway" - they say that you may spend a token to modify zero dice.

So effects that trigger from tokens being spent notwithstanding, modifying zero dice is still a dice modification, not simply doing nothing - and you can't modify dice against Omega Leader

The RRG on page 13 is quite clear that modifying dice consists of: Adding Dice Results, Changing Dice Results, and Rerolling Dice.These effects can be activated by spending tokens or resolving card effects, but spending the token is not part of modifying dice.

You can spend tokens to achieve other effects in the game that modifying dice. Spend is even a term in the RRG, described on page 18, and it simply tells you what to do when you spend a token. It does not what spending the token allows you to do. That depends entirely on the situation. And spending tokens can trigger other effects even during the modify attack/defense dice steps of combat, such as Garven Dreis. And it is a well established fact that you can spend the token and not modify any dice,

Omega Leader prevents dice modifications, not token spending. There are other pilot abilities that specifically prevent spending a token during combat. These are different abilities. If Omega Leader was intended to block this, it would have been worded so you couldn't spend tokens and resolve card abilities that modified dice.

I'm not disputing whether or not tokens can be spend for purposes that do not involve modifying dice.

But, for example, if you spend a target lock on a primary weapon attack and don't reroll dice, you are not simply doing nothing, you are performing a reroll

It just so happens that the number of dice you have chosen to reroll is zero.

This is spelled out on page 3 of the FAQ under the Spending Tokens header.

Even if this is true, Omega Leader prevents the rerolling of 0 dice, not the spending of the token to achieve it. The token is spent, the rerolling is what is blocked. You could spend the token and attempt to reroll all your dice, and it still wouldn't work but the token would still be spent.

In my opinion, I think one of the biggest mistakes FFG made was allowing the spending of tokens to modify 0 results. They should have declared a minimum of at least 1 relevant result. Keyan being able to lose a stress token when he hasn't rolled any focus results is a prime example. It just opens the door for abuse.

Can't help but agree with this, however.

Yeah I'd have to agree that OL would stop you from modifying 0 dice.

Note that the rules do not say - "you may do nothing and spend your tokens anyway" - they say that you may spend a token to modify zero dice.

So effects that trigger from tokens being spent notwithstanding, modifying zero dice is still a dice modification, not simply doing nothing - and you can't modify dice against Omega Leader

I'd argue that modifying 0 dice is the same as not modifying dice. It's functionally identical. Same deal with sticking C3P0 on a 0 agility ship, you don't roll 0 dice (getting a chance to guess 0 with 3P0 and get a free evade), you don't roll dice at all.

And besides, he still doesn't stop you from spending the tokens. Spending the tokens is not modifying the dice, they're separate parts of the process.

But rolling 0 dice isn't the same as not rolling dice, as far as the game mechanics are concerned. As an example, the old Blinded Pilot crit had you roll 0 dice on your attack. A ship equipped with Accuracy Corrector could cancel those nonexistent results and add 2 hits, because rolling 0 dice still counted as rolling dice. On the other hand, the new Blinded Pilot simply skips your attack, so Accuracy Corrector isn't able to trigger. So C-3P0 actually could trigger on a defense roll of 0 dice, if it weren't for the fact that the card says, "before you roll 1 or more defense dice".

Based on that, I'd agree with the others that modifying 0 dice is modifying dice. There's still the question of whether or not it's legal to spend a token to pay for an effect that can't resolve. I'm thinking that's a "no," but I wouldn't be too shocked if they ruled that you can.

Note that the rules do not say - "you may do nothing and spend your tokens anyway" - they say that you may spend a token to modify zero dice.

So effects that trigger from tokens being spent notwithstanding, modifying zero dice is still a dice modification, not simply doing nothing - and you can't modify dice against Omega Leader

I'd argue that modifying 0 dice is the same as not modifying dice. It's functionally identical. Same deal with sticking C3P0 on a 0 agility ship, you don't roll 0 dice (getting a chance to guess 0 with 3P0 and get a free evade), you don't roll dice at all.

And besides, he still doesn't stop you from spending the tokens. Spending the tokens is not modifying the dice, they're separate parts of the process.

But rolling 0 dice isn't the same as not rolling dice, as far as the game mechanics are concerned. As an example, the old Blinded Pilot crit had you roll 0 dice on your attack. A ship equipped with Accuracy Corrector could cancel those nonexistent results and add 2 hits, because rolling 0 dice still counted as rolling dice. On the other hand, the new Blinded Pilot simply skips your attack, so Accuracy Corrector isn't able to trigger. So C-3P0 actually could trigger on a defense roll of 0 dice, if it weren't for the fact that the card says, "before you roll 1 or more defense dice".

Based on that, I'd agree with the others that modifying 0 dice is modifying dice. There's still the question of whether or not it's legal to spend a token to pay for an effect that can't resolve. I'm thinking that's a "no," but I wouldn't be too shocked if they ruled that you can.

Whilst I think the semantic difference between rolling 0 dice and not rolling dice is nonsensical and irrelevant, that's not the point - because OL doesn't prevent you spending tokens.

It would be like saying 'you are not permitted to remove this thing from my shop'. You're welcome to give money for it, but you won't be able to take it out of the shop. You're not prevented from giving me the money, you're prevented from taking the thing. You'd be stupid to give me the money and not get the thing, but that would be your lookout. The key point is that it's the removal of the thing that is prevented, not the paying of the price for it. OL interrupts the process AFTER the token is spent, not before.

In much the same way, a ship COULD declare that it was using C3P0 on OL's attack when he has a lock. They would get to roll the dice, they would get to call a number of evade results, and if they were correct C3P0 would try to add one evade result, and at that point and only at that point would the process fail. C3P0 would still be used up for the round. They'd be stupid to do so, but they would be allowed to.

Whilst I think the semantic difference between rolling 0 dice and not rolling dice is nonsensical and irrelevant

But it isn't. It is very relevant because it can be argued that if you are unable to modify dice then you can't actually spend your token.

There is a fair case to be made, that there's a real difference between spending a token for no effect and spending a token to reroll 0 dice.

Whilst I think the semantic difference between rolling 0 dice and not rolling dice is nonsensical and irrelevant

But it isn't. It is very relevant because it can be argued that if you are unable to modify dice then you can't actually spend your token.

There is a fair case to be made, that there's a real difference between spending a token for no effect and spending a token to reroll 0 dice.

Round and round the argument goes, where it stops, nobody knows.

If you'd care to respond to the rest of the post where I said 'but anyway, that's not the point' perhaps we'd get somewhere.

Paying the cost is different from taking the action. You can pay the cost (spend the token) and OL forbids you from taking the action (rerolling any number of dice, even 0). But the cost is still paid, the token is still removed.

But clearly, this needs asking to FFG directly, and I'm quite happy to say that both positions have some logical foundation and wait for an official ruling at this stage.

You can pay the cost (spend the token) and OL forbids you from taking the action (rerolling any number of dice, even 0).

That's an assumption on your part. The rules don't actually say that. The rules say you can spend a token to roll zero dice.

Now that could be read one of two ways. You can spend a token when it has no effect. Or that you can spend the token to modify zero dice. In one case you have no dice you want to modify, in the other you can't modify any dice.

But clearly, this needs asking to FFG directly

I agree, because this gets into the realm of RAI. Is spending a token when you can't modify anything the same to them as when you spend a token and don't modify anything. That's not a semantic argument it's a matter of intent and options.

Has anyone emailed FFG? If not I'll fire one off myself.

I've not yet.

I have a whole laundry list of unresolved questions I've been meaning to send to suggest for FAQing based on discussions on these very forums.

I've not yet.

I'll shoot them an email now then.

I've actually had a second thought about it... I looked up the FAQ for Garven and I'm thinking you can in fact spend a token even if it can't do anything, which is different then not doing anything.

From the FAQ

A ship may spend a focus token during an attack even if there are no results to change (including an attack where no dice are rolled, such when a ship has a faceup Blinded Pilot Damage card).

Garven may still use his ability after using R5-P9 even if he cannot recover any shields.

Since he can spend a focus token when no dice are rolled, or he cannot gain a shield, I'm inclined to think spending a token isn't dependent on being able to do something with that token.

1. The figure or symbol "0" in the Arabic notation for numbers stands for the absence of quantity.

As an adjective "0" means having no measurable quantity or magnitude; not any:

2. "Any" as an adjective means - one, a, an, or some; one or more without specification or identification:

0 is less than Any.

Rerolling 0 dice LITERALLY means NOT Rerolling ANY dice.

Omega Leader Ability:

Enemy ships that you have locked cannot modify any dice when attacking you or defending against your attacks.

Spending a Target Lock:

While attacking, a ship may spend a target lock that it has on the defender to reroll any number of its attack dice.

Players may spend a Target Lock and choose to reroll 0 attack dice. (this addition in the faq changed how TL works, allowing you to spend TL without modifying ANY dice)

Spending a target locks allow to to modify none or any dice which you are able to modify by rerolling. Omega leader prevents you from modifying any dice. Therefore you may spend your target lock to modify none. This allows you to use other effects that proc off the spending of your target lock, but you may not modify ANY dice.

I've actually had a second thought about it... I looked up the FAQ for Garven and I'm thinking you can in fact spend a token even if it can't do anything, which is different then not doing anything.From the FAQ

A ship may spend a focus token during an attack even if there are no results to change (including an attack where no dice are rolled, such when a ship has a faceup Blinded Pilot Damage card).Garven may still use his ability after using R5-P9 even if he cannot recover any shields.

Since he can spend a focus token when no dice are rolled, or he cannot gain a shield, I'm inclined to think spending a token isn't dependent on being able to do something with that token.

You pay the costs and do as much [or as little] of the ability as you can. Omega Leader says that this means you modify nothing! You lose! Good day, sir!

I've actually had a second thought about it... I looked up the FAQ for Garven and I'm thinking you can in fact spend a token even if it can't do anything, which is different then not doing anything.

From the FAQ

A ship may spend a focus token during an attack even if there are no results to change (including an attack where no dice are rolled, such when a ship has a faceup Blinded Pilot Damage card).

Garven may still use his ability after using R5-P9 even if he cannot recover any shields.

Since he can spend a focus token when no dice are rolled, or he cannot gain a shield, I'm inclined to think spending a token isn't dependent on being able to do something with that token.

On the other hand the FAQ also says that you can spend a target Lock to reroll zero dice.

So Focus tokens and Target Locks seem to be treated differently under the same circumstances