It's interesting hearing everyone's opinions.

Never said it was "awesome" or even fun. Haha... I honestly am beginning to think the motti upgrade for isds is a bit op.

I've lost four isds in 11 games with this build. one to a b wing swarm the first time I tried the list. One to a trip mc80 fleet. And two to mc30s.

Five ties pretty easily screens a bomber wave long enough to get in and get out. People haven't seemed to grasp how ineffectual Intel ships really are. With a spread pattern, ya might get one or two ships at best free using Intel. It's honestly a simple effort to lock down a horde of squadrons with just a few. Intel doesn't reach that far. Some simple triangulation does the trick. The fighters aren't there to kill anything.

Im just saying, from a tournament perspective, with 42 hull points plus 9ish shields each...it's a simple matter to plow thru a fleet....kill and escape.

This is notwithstanding objective points, which have to be considered. I play this with a six point bid which reasonably gets me first about 75% of the time. That means any objective will be a non points collector. Either one I choose, or my own chosen from.

Not sure what the vitriol is toward the list? Is it offensive that no upgrades are used? Is it inconceivable that it does well?

Hehe... Funny stuff.

Hehe....

One tie is 8 points. A trip isd pass kills way more than 8 points.

And one does not simply "avoid" 3 speed three isds.... Just doesn't happen. Trust me.

It's not arrogance at all. My observations with a dozen games with this list (against varied humans and lists) is that it's a fairly straight forward job to 1) target a ship that gives you a reasonable mov, 2) charge at max speed with all three (including repetitive ramming), 3) kill it, 4) max speed and evasion from damage the rest of the turns

It will give you a win....and depending on your choice of target and tie loss, anywhere from a 6-9 Vic points.

In a tournament setting, winning a match is critical. Even in the 6-8 range. Then, if you face your equal in the last round...then you have to do the math to see what mov you need to win and make your target priority around that.

Except it is. I've dodged both 2 and 3 ISD, sometimes killing one in the process, sometimes not (but its the win that matters, not ships killed, right?). It's not easy, but doable. So the 3 ISD is not the ultimate solution. Sorry, but it's not.

Actually the ultimate option with only a few ships is speed control. When you know how to effectively use your speed in a vast array of situations, yo will be able to box things in. Thus speed 3 is not always the answer.

No speed 3 is not the answer. This is why Ozzel is critical in this list IMO.

I've gotten pretty **** good with the Ozzel Creep-pounce-turn-run.

Like with any list, Objective choice and DEPLOYMENT would be incredibly important. I feel a skilled player that knows how to deploy and how to ozzel can take a 3 ISD list (either slightly upgraded or naked with some ties) and cause problems for a pretty wide array of lists.

I think a list like this gets a lot of hate because it is a MIN/MAX list and min max lists are distasteful as they kind of laugh at game balance and are kinda "trolly"

It is also a list that can unnerve less experienced opponents. Even with less imposing lists I commonly see people flip out and over-extend bombers to try and start damaging the "big scary stuff" (hell I used to do it before I learned) and then either get them left behind the battle or exposed to anti-squadron arcs from ships that have nothing else to shoot.

In any case, while I doubt I would ever roll with a list like that in a tourney, I certainly feel it would be fun to try in some casual games.

"Trolly". Hehe... That's an awesome word.

I guess I don't understand the min max hate? Was just pointing out a list I've played (that is actually very iconic) and did well enough with it to make me concerned for its power.

Then all hell breaks loose with sarcastic and condescending comments....hahah... Guess I shouldn't expect anything else? Haha...

I am happy to play it against any list. I am certain it's beatable. And I am no savant at the game. Just pointing out its disgusting brutality , efficiency and ease of use and wins.

Its how you say something as much as what you say mike

"Trolly". Hehe... That's an awesome word.

I guess I don't understand the min max hate? Was just pointing out a list I've played (that is actually very iconic) and did well enough with it to make me concerned for its power.

Then all hell breaks loose with sarcastic and condescending comments....hahah... Guess I shouldn't expect anything else? Haha...

I am happy to play it against any list. I am certain it's beatable. And I am no savant at the game. Just pointing out its disgusting brutality , efficiency and ease of use and wins.

Why do min/max lists get hate?

Well, the reason they gate hate (from me, as well, in many cases) is that they take a complex interaction of choices and possibilities and stomps on them with an over-simplified template-like solution. It irks people that have an internal conflict between being maximally competitive AND loving variety.

So, activation spam lists with no squadrons (min squads, min variety, max activations), ISD spam lists (min squads, min variety, max ISD) and other such (including max ackbar etc) say "you don't need to put thought and subtlety into your decision making, just pick out an aspect that is moderately unbalanced and exploit the crap out of it" which eventually serves to undermine the game and the perception that there is no "absolute solution" to the beautifully complex problem of fleet building.

"Trolly". Hehe... That's an awesome word.

I guess I don't understand the min max hate? Was just pointing out a list I've played (that is actually very iconic) and did well enough with it to make me concerned for its power.

Then all hell breaks loose with sarcastic and condescending comments....hahah... Guess I shouldn't expect anything else? Haha...

I am happy to play it against any list. I am certain it's beatable. And I am no savant at the game. Just pointing out its disgusting brutality , efficiency and ease of use and wins.

Why do min/max lists get hate?

Well, the reason they gate hate (from me, as well, in many cases) is that they take a complex interaction of choices and possibilities and stomps on them with an over-simplified template-like solution. It irks people that have an internal conflict between being maximally competitive AND loving variety.

So, activation spam lists with no squadrons (min squads, min variety, max activations), ISD spam lists (min squads, min variety, max ISD) and other such (including max ackbar etc) say "you don't need to put thought and subtlety into your decision making, just pick out an aspect that is moderately unbalanced and exploit the crap out of it" which eventually serves to undermine the game and the perception that there is no "absolute solution" to the beautifully complex problem of fleet building.

Basically anything with silly-Rhymer in it.

Don't hate on Rhymer!

he doesn't count because at least then you HAVE to have ships AND squadrons and there is some finesse and personality in how you balance your point investments.

I am. Still debating on dropping Rhymer in my Vader Duet. . .

I guess this is a list that falls under min/maxing but likely because I have worked on it for the last month and a half

Vader Duet

Author: Lyraeus

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 397/400

Commander: Darth Vader

Assault Objective: Precision Strike

Defense Objective: Fire Lanes

Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)

- Darth Vader ( 36 points)

- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)

- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

1 TIE Advanced Squadron ( 12 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)

1 Firespray-31 ( 18 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)

In a list like that you get virtually no benefit for points on rhymer. He scales based on how many squad dice he will affect. You are better off getting another firespray in there or even going full anti-squad.

Consider dropping to a generic jumpmaster from dengar, dropping rhymer and retooling to either maximize firesprays or maximize anti-fighter synergies. But that's just my feelings

I saw a guy running nothing but tie advanced and firesprays with 3 naked vics, no rhymer. I think he got his ass handed to him on a tray, but to each his own! Personally, if you are going to be running multiple bombers and multiple black anti ship squadron dice with no rhymer you are shooting yourself in the foot, with only 1 firespray he might be surplus to requirements..

This is why I think I should drop him for another TIE Advanced and yet he came in useful getting my TIE Advanced and Dengar shots ok turns they would of had to move. He also let's me keep at medium range of Raider's and such with a black die or better of AS dice.

Not sure what the vitriol is toward the list? Is it offensive that no upgrades are used? Is it inconceivable that it does well?

I was aiming for jovial and flippant, sorry if it came across as aggressive and rude.

I was trying to point out that your rock has its' paper and should that rock and paper meet up the game would be quite fun to watch.

This is why I think I should drop him for another TIE Advanced and yet he came in useful getting my TIE Advanced and Dengar shots ok turns they would of had to move. He also let's me keep at medium range of Raider's and such with a black die or better of AS dice.

Sure he will do that, but you need to look at net benefit per point invested (this is where min maxing comes in). To max Rhymer you have to have a critical mass of bombers. He isn't useless if you DONT but he isn't as efficient points-wise. Personally if I were you I would use a generic jumpmaster and as many firesprays as will fit, your umph comes from your ships, you don't have enough for a true fireball, but firesprays will work as fighter screen in a pinch to free up your ships to bang and will punish a no/low fighter list in their rogue bomber role.

So, playing armada tonight, a good friend (lurker here also) confided in me when I asked, that "yeah..yer pretty much an arrogant ass hat on line".

Those weren't his exact words, but the intent was clear.

So, to that, I really apologize for sounding like a douchebag. I struggle with Internet "talk" I'm really a pretty nice guy in person. Just have no typing "informal speech" skills

So, sorry!

This is why I think I should drop him for another TIE Advanced and yet he came in useful getting my TIE Advanced and Dengar shots ok turns they would of had to move. He also let's me keep at medium range of Raider's and such with a black die or better of AS dice.

Sure he will do that, but you need to look at net benefit per point invested (this is where min maxing comes in). To max Rhymer you have to have a critical mass of bombers. He isn't useless if you DONT but he isn't as efficient points-wise. Personally if I were you I would use a generic jumpmaster and as many firesprays as will fit, your umph comes from your ships, you don't have enough for a true fireball, but firesprays will work as fighter screen in a pinch to free up your ships to bang and will punish a no/low fighter list in their rogue bomber role.

While your ideas will work wonders it comes down to play styles.

This is why I think I should drop him for another TIE Advanced and yet he came in useful getting my TIE Advanced and Dengar shots ok turns they would of had to move. He also let's me keep at medium range of Raider's and such with a black die or better of AS dice.

Sure he will do that, but you need to look at net benefit per point invested (this is where min maxing comes in). To max Rhymer you have to have a critical mass of bombers. He isn't useless if you DONT but he isn't as efficient points-wise. Personally if I were you I would use a generic jumpmaster and as many firesprays as will fit, your umph comes from your ships, you don't have enough for a true fireball, but firesprays will work as fighter screen in a pinch to free up your ships to bang and will punish a no/low fighter list in their rogue bomber role.

Actually, Dengar is amazing. That counter has come in handy more times than I can count. It helps Mithel out as well.

While your ideas will work wonders it comes down to play styles.

yes it really does. And no way can you play the setup I suggest remotely like you would play the one you have. The squadron game is probably one of the most skill intensive and under-rated aspect of this whole game.

This is why I think I should drop him for another TIE Advanced and yet he came in useful getting my TIE Advanced and Dengar shots ok turns they would of had to move. He also let's me keep at medium range of Raider's and such with a black die or better of AS dice.

Sure he will do that, but you need to look at net benefit per point invested (this is where min maxing comes in). To max Rhymer you have to have a critical mass of bombers. He isn't useless if you DONT but he isn't as efficient points-wise. Personally if I were you I would use a generic jumpmaster and as many firesprays as will fit, your umph comes from your ships, you don't have enough for a true fireball, but firesprays will work as fighter screen in a pinch to free up your ships to bang and will punish a no/low fighter list in their rogue bomber role.

Actually, Dengar is amazing. That counter has come in handy more times than I can count. It helps Mithel out as well.

While your ideas will work wonders it comes down to play styles.

yes it really does. And no way can you play the setup I suggest remotely like you would play the one you have. The squadron game is probably one of the most skill intensive and under-rated aspect of this whole game.