I'm about to start a new campaign filled with six rank eight characters in top tier gear. I've armed them with a Nurgle specific superweapon. It has no chance of killing him, only weakening him so the group can free Isha. It's being run by an Inquisitor and everyone will have a personal mini gellar field, fully enclosed long term environment suit, and experimental nanotech that give them super human immune systems. The Eldar are basically paying the Imperium to go on this mission with three recovered stc fragments, the lure of another authentic grimoire of true names, and limited access to the Black Library. I plan on the group having to grab her and flee. With teleport tech. Does this sound doable? I'm making it very difficult but I wanted a high risk high reward mission. Thoughts?

I guess the only thing that's missing is the players reviving the Emperor.

Sorry, had to. But more power to you if you manage to pull it off.

Seems like a real high level campaign, not sure if it's doable.

It's your game anything is doable. I say go for it and probably give those GW execs nightmares in the process!

There is canon that refers to missions of a similar nature. A strike team went in to rescue someone else from Nurgle's mansion and they pulled it off. I really don't understand why people get so b#tthurt when anyone proposes a change to the status quo in 40k. So what if it makes it a little less grimdark? As of now there is NO hope for the Imperium having any fate other than a slow but inevitable demise from it's various enemies. The only thing more stagnant than the Imperium is GW. No changes! Nothing past the last day of he 41st millennium! All of mankind's greatest leaders and warriors either dead or missing while Chaos only grows! I love the idea of the 40k universe but it's TOO grimdark going into full on grimderp. With today's level of technology any new invention, especially the popular and effective ones, has it's schematics backed up thousands of times over yet everyone is supposed to just buy that we all just forgot how to make stuff. And we lost all the files. And no one wrote any of it down. And no one cares enough about this to look into researching it. And no one is even trying to reverse engineer anything despite a pressing life and death need. If they had explained it differently and better I'd be okay with it but as it stands it's just terrible writing.

Sorry, I went on a bit of a rant there but it's ridiculous to believe that supposedly intelligent people would exist in such a state for any logical reason beyond "because the writers said so". I understand willful suspension of disbelief but you gotta make an effort. Help me get there.

I'm just thinking about all the consequences for breaking the status quo, you'll have your work cut out for you. Just know what you're getting yourself into and then anything is possible! I didn't mean my earlier post be like "You can't do this, it's against the setting!", so I hope you didn't get that impression. It's just way easier to keep everything on a smaller scale without too many consequences on an imperium universe wide level.

I guess it also depends on what you'll be giving them from the Black Library and what those STCs will be doing and how Isha will influence everything and how they'll be using that grimoire of true names. I expect those STCs to do a bit more than producing adamantium forks.

So now we're past the "Are you sure?" and "Is it possible?" so yes to both. Hopefully some experienced people/GMs will be able to help you out here.

I'll say this. If there's any Chaos God that will forgive you bloodying his nose a little, it's Papa Nurgle.

I have a thought for you though, on even how to make it work. Not to take away your player's hard work but...

The PC's succeed because Nurgle lets them. As far as I understand, Isha's been a subtle pain in Nurgle's rotted behind for millenia. Subtly messing with his plans and concoctions. Nurgle lets the PC's take her-- lets them think they've gotten one over on him, only to suddenly gain a huge amount of influence in realspace, because Isha's no longer interfering with him.

Or, perhaps the nastier (for the PC's) option. Nurgle lets the PC's get away, because they're taking some of his "gifts" with them, albeit unknowingly. Seeded into their clothes, their skin, their very genes. Perhaps they're bringing a bit of Nurgle's garden with them back into realspace to allow even more "fun."

My plan is actually to give them a path to weakening Nurgle permanently. I'll have Isha give the a suggestion in images after he's been weakened a bit on how to deal him a grievous wound. If they figure it out, and if they pull it off Isha gets out of her cell to find a vulnerable Nurgle in many pieces but still very much alive. She will then take his power over rebirth and growth away from him and increase her own power in both those aspects. Nurgle will still be a Chaos god, albeit a weaker one, and Isha will be a more powerful Eldar god. Perhaps with enough power to resurrect Khaine. Maybe even the Emperor, not that she'd be inclined to do so unless she had some assurance that the xenophobia would be dialed back a little. In the current paradigm Chaos is inevitable and irresistable. Even to Primarchs. If that's the case everyone should just stop resisting and offer up their skulls for the skull throne. If the game is to have any semblance of balance then Order needs to ben on a similar footing with Chaos. It's too one sided.

My plan is actually to give them a path to weakening Nurgle permanently. I'll have Isha give the a suggestion in images after he's been weakened a bit on how to deal him a grievous wound. If they figure it out, and if they pull it off Isha gets out of her cell to find a vulnerable Nurgle in many pieces but still very much alive. She will then take his power over rebirth and growth away from him and increase her own power in both those aspects. Nurgle will still be a Chaos god, albeit a weaker one, and Isha will be a more powerful Eldar god. Perhaps with enough power to resurrect Khaine. Maybe even the Emperor, not that she'd be inclined to do so unless she had some assurance that the xenophobia would be dialed back a little. In the current paradigm Chaos is inevitable and irresistable. Even to Primarchs. If that's the case everyone should just stop resisting and offer up their skulls for the skull throne. If the game is to have any semblance of balance then Order needs to ben on a similar footing with Chaos. It's too one sided.

It seems like you don't actually like the setting..so why play in it? There are other settings you know....

Of course its a ridicilous setting which can't logically work but its just meant to be a fluffy backdrop for armies fighting each other (and GW selling miniatures). The victory of chaos is not preordained, nor is it one sided. Chaos is not overwhelmingly powerful, neither are the Orks. Because they are too busy fighting amongst themselves. If (and its a big if), they could unite permanently, they'd be an "unstoppable" force (black crusades and waaaaghs) but they always fizzle out as charismatic leaders get killed and the infighting starts again.

Now each GM can play the game in his own way and spin a plot to suit his own needs. GW won't care and neither will other players. But Nurgle doesn't seem to be the right god for your purpose of weakening chaos. His power waxes and wanes, depending on the condition of his plagues (much like an illness). Where other chaos gods have a more "permanent" strength (and thus could be "permanently" weakened), Nurgle can be the weakest of the gods or the most powerful, depending on how many people are succumbing to his plagues. So if your elite strike team "weaken" him, he's just more likely to send a few more plagues out....YMMV.

I'll say this. If there's any Chaos God that will forgive you bloodying his nose a little, it's Papa Nurgle.

I have a thought for you though, on even how to make it work. Not to take away your player's hard work but...

The PC's succeed because Nurgle lets them. As far as I understand, Isha's been a subtle pain in Nurgle's rotted behind for millenia. Subtly messing with his plans and concoctions. Nurgle lets the PC's take her-- lets them think they've gotten one over on him, only to suddenly gain a huge amount of influence in realspace, because Isha's no longer interfering with him.

Or, perhaps the nastier (for the PC's) option. Nurgle lets the PC's get away, because they're taking some of his "gifts" with them, albeit unknowingly. Seeded into their clothes, their skin, their very genes. Perhaps they're bringing a bit of Nurgle's garden with them back into realspace to allow even more "fun."

And Tzeentch. In that case it's because he wanted you to do that, and everything is going according to plan

It's not that I don't like the setting, I freaking love it. There are just some things in it that I think are broken that I'd like to fix. In the end you have a point that Nurgle will regain most of his power, but he'll be changed. No longer will he have powers of growth and rebirth so he's only left with rot, decay, entropy, and death. His mortal champions will no longer be immune to the disease they carry, instead growing into walking virus bombs that eventually explode and rot. So his forces will shrink and mortals will have to be insane to follow him in the future. Even then not lasting long. His daemons will be less active preferring instead to wallow in their own lairs within the warp as entropy swallows them in it's grip. Only on Nurgle's command will they venture forth.

Assuming my players pull off a win, which is by no means guaranteed, the Imperium will also gain three STC fragments (mostly weapons and armor tech with a little warp travel and biology mixed in), a grimoire of true names (more power and defense against daemons), and the Inquisition will have select access to the Black Library gaining immesurable knowledge to combat Chaos. Mostly in the form of being far more resilient against corruption and possession.

The Eldar will no longer be targets of the Imperium. Not allies either. More like the enemy of my enemy is my friend situation. And certain factions within the Inquisition will work with the Eldar through back channels. And the Mechanicus will get off it's duff and start making things and doing research at a logical and consistent pace.

I understand that some people are just fine with the way things are. I am not one of them. GW is content to let things remain the same and crank out the occasional new piece of fluff as an excuse to produce different minis but they're just being lazy. If I want things to move forward then it's up to me to do it. There aren't even stats for the Chaos gods. They literally make it impossible for them to be fought and thus killed. Ultimate plot armor.

However: Nurgle will never let Isha go. In my headcanon if you try to free her from Papa Nurgle, he will loose his usual jovial attitude and break out the "papa spank"!

Also the moment they get Isha out of Nurgle's realm they should be beset upon by Slaanesh.

Slaanesh: "Hellll-oooooooh! Hi I'm Slaanesh, and I'm still two Eldar gods short of a complete collection- and who do we have here? Yoink!"

...

I understand that some people are just fine with the way things are. I am not one of them. GW is content to let things remain the same and crank out the occasional new piece of fluff as an excuse to produce different minis but they're just being lazy. If I want things to move forward then it's up to me to do it. There aren't even stats for the Chaos gods. They literally make it impossible for them to be fought and thus killed. Ultimate plot armor.

Maybe they'll bring out the "Warhammer40k : Age of the Emperor" after everything explodes in the 40k universe.

Note: Not looking forward to that !

It's not that I don't like the setting, I freaking love it. There are just some things in it that I think are broken that I'd like to fix. In the end you have a point that Nurgle will regain most of his power, but he'll be changed. No longer will he have powers of growth and rebirth so he's only left with rot, decay, entropy, and death. His mortal champions will no longer be immune to the disease they carry, instead growing into walking virus bombs that eventually explode and rot. So his forces will shrink and mortals will have to be insane to follow him in the future. Even then not lasting long. His daemons will be less active preferring instead to wallow in their own lairs within the warp as entropy swallows them in it's grip. Only on Nurgle's command will they venture forth.

Assuming my players pull off a win, which is by no means guaranteed, the Imperium will also gain three STC fragments (mostly weapons and armor tech with a little warp travel and biology mixed in), a grimoire of true names (more power and defense against daemons), and the Inquisition will have select access to the Black Library gaining immesurable knowledge to combat Chaos. Mostly in the form of being far more resilient against corruption and possession.

The Eldar will no longer be targets of the Imperium. Not allies either. More like the enemy of my enemy is my friend situation. And certain factions within the Inquisition will work with the Eldar through back channels. And the Mechanicus will get off it's duff and start making things and doing research at a logical and consistent pace.

I understand that some people are just fine with the way things are. I am not one of them. GW is content to let things remain the same and crank out the occasional new piece of fluff as an excuse to produce different minis but they're just being lazy. If I want things to move forward then it's up to me to do it. There aren't even stats for the Chaos gods. They literally make it impossible for them to be fought and thus killed. Ultimate plot armor.

Well, more power to you. Go crazy and please let us know how your story and the universe/Imperium in it evolves.

As an aside, you might consider spicing up your adventure by throwing in a little twist. Why not have Isha actually love Nurgle? They've been together for so long, perhaps she has developed genuine feelings for the god? Or at the very least, Stockholm syndrome has her in its grip.....

Instead of gratefully escaping with the players, have her fight them every step of the way, doing her best to help Nurgle recapture her....

Isha: "EEEEEEE! Nurgle, There are mon-keigh in my kitchen!"

Nurgle: "Comming dear!"

Players: "Uh oh!"

...

I understand that some people are just fine with the way things are. I am not one of them. GW is content to let things remain the same and crank out the occasional new piece of fluff as an excuse to produce different minis but they're just being lazy. If I want things to move forward then it's up to me to do it. There aren't even stats for the Chaos gods. They literally make it impossible for them to be fought and thus killed. Ultimate plot armor.

Maybe they'll bring out the "Warhammer40k : Age of the Emperor" after everything explodes in the 40k universe.

Note: Not looking forward to that !

Wich reminds me: back before forgeworld came out with the Horus Heresy stuff, we tought we'd never see stats for the primarchs*. And now we do. (BTW: Why does Horus only have a BS of 5?)

The new spacewolves codex is also going: OMG the wulfen are back! the end times are getting closer! Sigh.

* yes ok, there were models, stats and rules for 4 daemon primarchs in Epic.

GW is content to let things remain the same and crank out the occasional new piece of fluff as an excuse to produce different minis but they're just being lazy. If I want things to move forward then it's up to me to do it.

It has nothing to do with them being lazy. 40K is a setting; not a story. It's supposed to be up to you to move things forward.

Alright, I was going to ignore this post but I find I need to voice my opinion on a few of the choices on display here.

1) You are providing each of your players an extremely high-level character.
This already imposes a severe limit on your players' ability to make this a personal story for their characters or develop them beyond their backstory. Any sort of RP will need to take into account decades or even centuries of experience these characters will invariably have had to be of such high level, which your players will need to write out and act upon.

2) Isha and Nurgle are both not individuals, they are not beings, they are concepts.

The Gods of Chaos and the Gods of the Eldar are not actual beings or coherent entities. They are constructs formed from sentient thought and emotion and as such you cannot just "take" Isha out of the Warp, it doesn't work that way she cannot exist in the real world.

3) The mini-gellar fields

A gellar field, beyond being a massive device and using barely understood technology, creates a bubble of realspace around the user (aka the ship). This means that while inside said bubble your character cannot interact with the Warp, as he is not actually within the Warp at the time. So while in Nurgle's Garden, they would not be able to interact with anything.

4) The rest of the gear

If you take anything into the Warp it will cease to function, this is not because of some malfunction or technical issue, it is because you are making the mistake of thinking that Nurgle's Garden is an actual garden with real diseases and real plants/native creatures. This is simply not the case, the Warp is not a physical medium.

5) The rewards

Three STC fragments are not a reward the Eldar or anyone would give for such a task. Furthermore, the Eldar cannot provide access to the Black Library. It does not belong to them, it belongs to the Harlequins, which you are completely ignoring in this setting. Your characters would need to strike a deal with them, and thus also with Cegorach another godlike entity within the webway. Also the idea that Isha can reanimate Khaine will also not work as he is not even dead, he is banished to realspace and has been infected with the shard of the Nightbringer making it impossible for him to return to the Warp as a god.

There are other discrepancies but you get the gist of it.

It seems like you don't actually like the setting..so why play in it? There are other settings you know....

I cannot agree more with this statement, what you are trying to make here is not 40k, it goes against the very setting itself and you are cherry-picking aspects from it to suit your needs while ignoring other parts of it when they don't agree with it. If you are going to run something like this, play a different setting.

2) Isha and Nurgle are both not individuals, they are not beings, they are concepts.

The Gods of Chaos and the Gods of the Eldar are not actual beings or coherent entities. They are constructs formed from sentient thought and emotion and as such you cannot just "take" Isha out of the Warp, it doesn't work that way she cannot exist in the real world.

In fairness, there have been prior attempts mentioned in the Codex's of Eldar trying to do the same thing. The Eldar HAVE in fact, attempted to raid Nurgle's Garden in an attempt to rescue Isha, though the team that went to do this, was horrifically slaughtered.

Uh, SCKoNI... I'm going to have to disagree with that.

1. Some groups/games like high-level characters. It gives them more of a chance to do what they want. Just because you don't like it or think it is limiting, doesn't mean it is. And there is no reason the players would HAVE to write out the character's entire backstory.

2. They aren't just concepts, they are the personification of those concepts. They are in fact mostly coherent entities; though Chaos Gods tend to disperse themselves by making all those little Daemons running around with a spark of their power, they can be reabsorbed pretty easily. Isha can exist to some extent in the Material World, which is enough to get her out of Nurgle's purview. Better yet, they take her to the Webway.

3. There's nothing saying the Dark Age of Technology didn't miniaturize Gellar Fields, or some other equivalent technology that has a suitable effect. Maybe these smaller ones have less power, thus 'merely' protecting you from raw exposure to the Warp while allowing you to do things. As for how 'interacting with the Warp' goes, if you can't do that, how can Daemons cross over and do things if it's impossible?

4. It doesn't have to be a physical medium. Their belief that the devices work, along with the belief of all the people who made it work, who made it able to do what they want it to do, would make it an effective tool. If they had enough pure faith, they wouldn't even need the devices; as-is, they help. On top of that, if they've got some kind of device to keep the team functional in the Warp, maybe it makes those threats a real problem to them.

5. Yeah, that depends on what are on the STCs, to start. You can't really say they wouldn't work without knowing what is on the table. I could see a bunch of Imperials doing the job just to bend Nurgle over and weaken him, regardless of the STC rewards. The True Names and some access to the Black Library is icing on the cake at that point too. Also 'the Eldar' doesn't just have to be Craftworld Eldar. It could involve Harlequins, Craftworld, even the Outcasts and some Dark Eldar. You think Cegorach wouldn't offer some scraps off of the table to get his last whole sibling back and weaken his people's oldest foes? Your declaration that Isha, Eldar Goddess of Healing, can't fix Khaine has no evidence to support it. There's no evidence saying it would work either, but if the game is staked this high, why not give it a chance?

While I agree somewhat that the grimdarkness is getting turned down too much by his description, this one aspect of it should be possible to attempt.

Since you pointed out what you see as fallacies, allow me to defend my posts with references to the lore. (Only Codex lore here)

1. Some groups/games like high-level characters. It gives them more of a chance to do what they want. Just because you don't like it or think it is limiting, doesn't mean it is. And there is no reason the players would HAVE to write out the character's entire backstory.

This is your opinion, you are entitled to that. If you want to play high-level characters be my guest, yes this is personal preference on my part.

I dislike the complete lack of subtlety being proposed:

You don't weaken Nurgle by entering the Warp and setting fire to his Garden.

You could, I suppose, weaken Nurgle by vaccinating people, promoting healthy living, and making sure everyone is stocked with antiseptics, medicines, bleach, and all sorts. That, somewhat, limits his influence, and makes him weaker.

Likewise, Khorne is weakened by pacifism, considered debate, forgiveness, and calm.

Slaanesh would be weakened by celibacy, asceticism, and control.

Tzeentch has probably planned any weaknesses that he will gain.

Freeing Isha is, technically, possible. But, really, outside of the scope of a Dark Heresy game. The Eldar Gods, possibly Old Ones (who are very possibly much closer to the C'Tan than we might think - Note that 'the War in Heaven' refers to both the civil war amongst the gods, and the war against the C'Tan, and that the C'Tan have been shattered into shards... very similar to Khaine being smashed into Avatars), had actual forms, as they engaged in a very real war with the C'Tan. Sure, it was then layered with myth and allegory, but, on paper, rescuing Isha could be possible. But not in a Dark Heresy game.

Simply gathering notes on the War in Heaven would be a Dark Heresy campaign, and a high level one at that.

Alright, I was going to ignore this post but I find I need to voice my opinion on a few of the choices on display here.

1) You are providing each of your players an extremely high-level character.

This already imposes a severe limit on your players' ability to make this a personal story for their characters or develop them beyond their backstory. Any sort of RP will need to take into account decades or even centuries of experience these characters will invariably have had to be of such high level, which your players will need to write out and act upon.

2) Isha and Nurgle are both not individuals, they are not beings, they are concepts.

The Gods of Chaos and the Gods of the Eldar are not actual beings or coherent entities. They are constructs formed from sentient thought and emotion and as such you cannot just "take" Isha out of the Warp, it doesn't work that way she cannot exist in the real world.

3) The mini-gellar fields

A gellar field, beyond being a massive device and using barely understood technology, creates a bubble of realspace around the user (aka the ship). This means that while inside said bubble your character cannot interact with the Warp, as he is not actually within the Warp at the time. So while in Nurgle's Garden, they would not be able to interact with anything.

4) The rest of the gear

If you take anything into the Warp it will cease to function, this is not because of some malfunction or technical issue, it is because you are making the mistake of thinking that Nurgle's Garden is an actual garden with real diseases and real plants/native creatures. This is simply not the case, the Warp is not a physical medium.

5) The rewards

Three STC fragments are not a reward the Eldar or anyone would give for such a task. Furthermore, the Eldar cannot provide access to the Black Library. It does not belong to them, it belongs to the Harlequins, which you are completely ignoring in this setting. Your characters would need to strike a deal with them, and thus also with Cegorach another godlike entity within the webway. Also the idea that Isha can reanimate Khaine will also not work as he is not even dead, he is banished to realspace and has been infected with the shard of the Nightbringer making it impossible for him to return to the Warp as a god.

There are other discrepancies but you get the gist of it.

It seems like you don't actually like the setting..so why play in it? There are other settings you know....

I cannot agree more with this statement, what you are trying to make here is not 40k, it goes against the very setting itself and you are cherry-picking aspects from it to suit your needs while ignoring other parts of it when they don't agree with it. If you are going to run something like this, play a different setting.

I have taken all the things you listed into account. They may be concepts, but ones with physical form and distinct personalities. Therefore, in every way that matters they act like beings with emotions and the full spectrum of behavior that entails. These players are used to and very experienced in playing high level characters and this is nothing outside their abilities. You actually have a point about the Gellar fields, mini versions of which have been constructed before in canon. I'll just have them enter the Warp physically. Got a problem with that then take it up with Kaldor Draigo. I disagree thoroughly with the idea that the Eldar would'nt pay three STCs for the freedom of one of their only remaining gods. They would have come across these over the last 10,000 quite logically. You have a point about Khaine but that was just a thought and not part of the campaign. They have a deal in place with the Harlequins and Cegorach is on board. A Solitaire is part of the group. It's a radical Inquisitior in charge of all this. Their gear will work just fine. There are plenty of examples of gear working within the warp. In summation, I'll play 40k if it please me and I couldn't care less if you think I'm doing it wrong. You play it your way, I'll play it mine.

It seems like you don't actually like the setting..so why play in it? There are other settings you know....

I cannot agree more with this statement, what you are trying to make here is not 40k, it goes against the very setting itself and you are cherry-picking aspects from it to suit your needs while ignoring other parts of it when they don't agree with it. If you are going to run something like this, play a different setting.

I couldn't agree with this statement any less. We are all free to choose which part of a setting we like and which parts we'd like to keep, it doesn't mean we don't like the game or should play something else.

The game is about imagination after all, we don't have to follow the fluff like mindless sheep. And as Lynata so after points out in many of their posts, the fluff itself is often contradictory depending on which sources you use.

So as Valarion said you play it your way and let him play it his way.

Hopefully no-one will have any sleepless nights because somewhere out there someone is playing the game "WRONG!"

I am just glad we are having a nice discussion and exchange of views without heckling, insults and that dude Hitler making an appearance. Didn't realise that was possible on the interwebs.