Heheheheh...

Proxies.

I played a 50 point game against a guy, using his toys, I had left mine at home to avoid playing this guy, but he was insistent. So I ran a tooled up Rexler, but I was using an Autoblaster cannon and he didn't have the card. I had the whole list on a post it note anyways, so I figured whatever, if he wants to see what an Autoblaster does we can ask the store owner to borrow his copy. We all know what PTL does, so it's like dude, why bother taking it out of your binder, you can see my list.

ANywayS...

We play the game, I kick his ass quite badly. The next day he's asking about the upcoming league. Do we have to have the cards for our ships or can we just pretend like DC does?

Like, what a ******* ******* right?

Just get the cards for yourself so you don't have to even deal with these twats. Or better yet, just don't play them at all.

What.

You used his toys, without your toys or cards there, at his insistence, and then he talks smack? Really?

What a cad.

What difference does it make if your opponent has a physical copy of the card or a digital copy of the card?

What is the "unfair advantage" that you are suggesting that your opponent may have had?

What difference does it make if your opponent has a physical copy of the card or a digital copy of the card?

What is the "unfair advantage" that you are suggesting that your opponent may have had?

Depends on 1) how they build lists (if player one assumes no proxies and adheres to this while building his list, and player two proxies, player one will be at a potential disadvantage unless he's given the option to alter his list and add proxies of his own before the game), and 2) where, as pointed out earlier, where the line is drawn (if proxied cards are allowed, but not proxied ships, this could favour one player/faction/build type over another).

Where do you draw the line, though? Would it be reasonable of me to ask to use TIE/D Vessery with a Tractor Beam, but object to you saying that Falcon is really Hera in the Ghost (likely a strong anti-Vessery tank)?

When you don't have the cards on the table, and three of your ships represent other ships that aren't released yet, it starts to get messy, in my opinion.

But the ghost still has lingering questions about how it's rear arc works so it's not a good comparison to the defender stuff which is fully revealed.

I wouldn't use the tractor beam when there was only half a card revealed.

In itself, allowing proxies does not disadvantage anyone. The opposite is true: if you do not allow proxies, the player that can afford the most expansions has a distinct advantage because he has a bigger chance of being able to choose his ideal squad.

I'm disregarding ship proxies here, although simply using the base and -token would simplify the game quite a bit.

Where do you draw the line, though? Would it be reasonable of me to ask to use TIE/D Vessery with a Tractor Beam, but object to you saying that Falcon is really Hera in the Ghost (likely a strong anti-Vessery tank)?

When you don't have the cards on the table, and three of your ships represent other ships that aren't released yet, it starts to get messy, in my opinion.

But the ghost still has lingering questions about how it's rear arc works so it's not a good comparison to the defender stuff which is fully revealed.

I wouldn't use the tractor beam when there was only half a card revealed.

There you have the advantage, then. Empire can proxy everything that's coming out, while Rebels and Scum has fewer options available to them.

Sorry that's bull where's the imperial stress bots, where's our shield regeneration? Rebels have plenty of options imps don't.

You simply can't proxy something when you don't have the full rules no one used tractor beam before the rules card was shown because we had no clue what TB tokens did.

You can't proxy the ghost because we don't know how a special arc differs from a auxiliary arc.

Compare Apple's to Apple's not oranges.

Sorry that's bull where's the imperial stress bots, where's our shield regeneration? Rebels have plenty of options imps don't.

You simply can't proxy something when you don't have the full rules no one used tractor beam before the rules card was shown because we had no clue what TB tokens did.

You can't proxy the ghost because we don't know how a special arc differs from a auxiliary arc.

Compare Apple's to Apple's not oranges.

Empire isn't meant to have regenerating stressbots. Rebels, however, will have a hard counter to Tractor TIE/D, in the form of the Ghost, which actually comes out before it. There will never be a meta with the former without the latter, and TIE/D Tractor Beam Vessery wipes the floor with pretty much any Rebel small ship (with the possible exception of Jake Farrell). Testing against a particular build is obviously fine, but it wouldn't be representative of any real meta, present or future.

Sorry that's bull where's the imperial stress bots, where's our shield regeneration? Rebels have plenty of options imps don't.

You simply can't proxy something when you don't have the full rules no one used tractor beam before the rules card was shown because we had no clue what TB tokens did.

You can't proxy the ghost because we don't know how a special arc differs from a auxiliary arc.

Compare Apple's to Apple's not oranges.

Empire isn't meant to have regenerating stressbots. Rebels, however, will have a hard counter to Tractor TIE/D, in the form of the Ghost, which actually comes out before it. There will never be a meta with the former without the latter, and TIE/D Tractor Beam Vessery wipes the floor with pretty much any Rebel small ship (with the possible exception of Jake Farrell). Testing against a particular build is obviously fine, but it wouldn't be representative of any real meta, present or future.

The Ghost isn't a hard counter to a defender list. Defenders would rip that ship and it's 0 agility apart *very* quickly.

I'm not sure how tie/d tractor vesery is going to "wipe the floor" with every single rebel small ship in the game. I'm not even sure that's the best way to build him(the x7 title is a lot more appealing to me.)

The Ghost isn't a hard counter to a defender list. Defenders would rip that ship and it's 0 agility apart *very* quickly.

How would they do that? The Defender is considered overpriced to near uselessness right now, and a TIE/D with a Tractor Beam is exactly like the current, non-titled Defender when facing a VCX-100.

Edit: Worse, actually. It's a point more expensive.

I'm not sure how tie/d tractor vesery is going to "wipe the floor" with every single rebel small ship in the game. I'm not even sure that's the best way to build him(the x7 title is a lot more appealing to me.)

Just put them on asteroids. Ys and Ks can barely defend themselves against a 3 dice attack, let alone a fully modified one. Even Poe isn't fast enough to avoid getting shot at on the initial pass, although a turtled up Corran might have a chance.

I'm not sure how tie/d tractor vesery is going to "wipe the floor" with every single rebel small ship in the game. I'm not even sure that's the best way to build him(the x7 title is a lot more appealing to me.)

Just put them on asteroids. Ys and Ks can barely defend themselves against a 3 dice attack, let alone a fully modified one. Even Poe isn't fast enough to avoid getting shot at on the initial pass, although a turtled up Corran might have a chance.

That's a big assumption that a PS6 arced ship will always get to shoot at aces or that one tractor is going to demolish a generic-based list.

This is not to say that Vessery or the TIE/D isn't good, because I think Vessery in particular is, but I wouldn't make this sweeping statement.

The Ghost isn't a hard counter to a defender list. Defenders would rip that ship and it's 0 agility apart *very* quickly.

How would they do that? The Defender is considered overpriced to near uselessness right now, and a TIE/D with a Tractor Beam is exactly like the current, non-titled Defender when facing a VCX-100.

I think you're overestimating the durability of 0 agility ships, even ones with 16 health. The only Ghost would challenge a TIE/D list would be Hera because of her ability to change her maneuver dial.

For all other Ghosts it's far too easy for the TIE/D ships to stay behind it or in range one where they get a hilarious 12 attack dice against it's 0 agility.

I'd consider Hera to be a tough fight, but certainly not a hard counter. A hard counter would be the likes of Decivader vs Soontir.

That's a big assumption that a PS6 arced ship will always get to shoot at aces or that one tractor is going to demolish a generic-based list.

Well, he's obviously not going to solo then, thought that'd go without saying. Someone has to set up those target locks, probably commonly Omega Leader, Darth Vader and Rexler Brath. Getting a shot isn't all that tricky though. PS2 stressbots manage just fine. At range 2-3 even the front arc is pretty huge.

What difference does it make if your opponent has a physical copy of the card or a digital copy of the card?

Depends on 1) how they build lists (if player one assumes no proxies and adheres to this while building his list, and player two proxies, player one will be at a potential disadvantage unless he's given the option to alter his list and add proxies of his own before the game)

So, if one player having more options than the other is an unfair advantage, the games are only fair if both players have identical collections, which is something that I have never seen.

2) where, as pointed out earlier, where the line is drawn (if proxied cards are allowed, but not proxied ships, this could favour one player/faction/build type over another).

What? How?

I'm not sure how tie/d tractor vesery is going to "wipe the floor" with every single rebel small ship in the game. I'm not even sure that's the best way to build him(the x7 title is a lot more appealing to me.)

Trust me vessery wants /d I've used him in seven games now I'm 7-0 he's not died once nor has any of his escorts and his tractor beam has seen everything from a-wings to b-wings drop like flies.

Sure it's no use against the ghost but one point more gets a flechette cannon that can stress a big ship and let's him do 3-4 damage with TL and focus.

If I take a few AC advanced with him armed with cluster missiles that can't possibly miss the ghost is done for.

It's not a hard counter it's breakfast.

Well, this thread got thoroughly derailed in a hurry...

Heres the thing, while actual cards look cool they are functionally identical to a print out of the same card or txt of that cards rules. Also in many cases certain builds are so well known players don't even need to reference the copy of your list you provide them. "Is that standard palp aces? Yea. Ok just keep that."

Cards are literally just the engine that drives the market and thats fine I buy into it.

For us proxies started to help newer players who couldn't afford all the bells and whistles, which incidently puts them at the same unfair advantage that others are stating here regarding proxies. I have plenty of money but some don't. Does that mean I'm buying my wins? I don't think so but I wanna make sure if a guy can't spring for c3p0 I'm not gonna hold it against him when he tells me its on his ship. Same for tie/x1.

OP- I see all sorts of speculation around here on how the upcoming releases will effect the meta at large, interactions, what goes best with X&Y etc.. I'm not talking about partial spoilers but fully spoiled content.

Then theres those of us who have been actively using the latest tech since an 'accurate' spoiler was released. Night and day and it also really helps with making informed decisions when purchasing which to me is the main reason for proxies.. well that and enjoyment of this hobby.

Just something to keep an open mind on. Either way you do have the right to refuse, but is it that big a deal really? I think not.

I personally don't care much about people using proxies especially during our casual night. Most of the people that do are the newer players who haven't purchased much. However, If i can I will loan them the cards they need so that they have the actual card to read.

As with unreleased stuff, I don't really think it is that major of an issue especially in casual games. I play to have fun and even against unreleased cards I can still get better at flying.

If you don't like it then ask them not to use it no biggie either way imo.

Where do you draw the line, though? Would it be reasonable of me to ask to use TIE/D Vessery with a Tractor Beam, but object to you saying that Falcon is really Hera in the Ghost (likely a strong anti-Vessery tank)?

When you don't have the cards on the table, and three of your ships represent other ships that aren't released yet, it starts to get messy, in my opinion.

But the ghost still has lingering questions about how it's rear arc works so it's not a good comparison to the defender stuff which is fully revealed.

I wouldn't use the tractor beam when there was only half a card revealed.

Hobo, the full card was revealed a week or two ago, in the Mist Hunter preview. Have a look

It was casual. I am relatively new to the game and he is in my gaming club, and he is probably our best local player, give or take. He would never ever cheat. I do believe it was prior to the local tourney I entered (my only one), and I hope to enter more. I only get to play once a fortnight generally. The funny thing is, that may have actually been the only game I have beaten him iirc (out of maybe 5 or 6 games). I wouldn't play if it wasn't to win, but it's not the reason I play. I've learnt from and had fun losing that's for sure!

This has been a great discussion and opened my eyes to all the various points of view. As you can see, I'm not after confirmation or backup etc. It has made it easier for me to see the merit in playing spoilt proxies moreso than I thought.

Please, keep your opinions coming.

Although I'm all for proxies of unreleased content for testing, I'd say in your case you should stick with the current releases only. If you're new and have limited time to play, and want to practice for upcoming tournaments you should be focusing on tooling up your squad for what you expect to face.

Casual, sure proxies are okay.

Competitive or League play, no proxies.

If you are just practicing for torunament then you would want to get the actual upgrade cards.

Where do you draw the line, though? Would it be reasonable of me to ask to use TIE/D Vessery with a Tractor Beam, but object to you saying that Falcon is really Hera in the Ghost (likely a strong anti-Vessery tank)?

When you don't have the cards on the table, and three of your ships represent other ships that aren't released yet, it starts to get messy, in my opinion.

But the ghost still has lingering questions about how it's rear arc works so it's not a good comparison to the defender stuff which is fully revealed.

I wouldn't use the tractor beam when there was only half a card revealed.

Hobo, the full card was revealed a week or two ago, in the Mist Hunter preview. Have a look

I know I'm saying I wouldn't use it when all we knew was it reduced agility by one.

I wouldn't use it not knowing all the rules.

Well in my country where the Ringgit is 4.5 to the USD, we are actually forced to proxy to see if the purchase would be justified (especially if you are buying a ship only for the upgrade cards, as in the case for Autothrusters) ... or whether the playstyle would be fitting or not. There's no point splurging RM70+ for a ship and cards that you will never use because you were too stuck up to test out in advance.