Now, don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with proxy cards in casual matches. This thread is not about that specifically.

When Imperial veterans was announced, I had a buddy that wanted to play me with the defender upgrades. I was quite reticent*. Basically, my argument was that:

1. I don't follow or research unreleased cards very much. There's enough to learn about this game as it is.

2. There may be other cards released in the meantime that may be hard counters, or synergise in my lists better against that type of list. These cards may not have even been spoiled yet.

3. The above points give him an unfair advantage.

What are your thoughts on this?

*(It wasn't a big deal with him either. We played a "standard game".)

My group is down with proxy including for unreleased content. Its like getting extra practice in for when they are released.. like being in front of the eight ball so to speak.

That said I can understand how you'd feel that way. Just depends on how serious you each take a casual match.

You're well within your right to request a tournament-legal game.

That said, I don't think that anything that comes out in the mean time is going to make the Imperial Vets content more or less balanced; that's not how FFG approaches balancing content (no "better buy xpac ABC otherwise you get steamrolled by XYZ!" power creep).

If your practicing for tournament play then you would want to avoid this situation. You need to play against what is in the current meta to get real practice.

Otherwise it seems fun to play cards that aren't out yet to see how they will work. I do this sometimes, the tie advanced fix was a good example. Same with auto thrusters.

But if you have to ask I guess its not something you want to do. No big deal.

I concur: you're within your rights to request a legal-released list even for casual play. Note the word - request.

When Imperial veterans was announced, I had a buddy that wanted to play me with the defender upgrades. I was quite reticent*. Basically, my argument was that:

1. I don't follow or research unreleased cards very much. There's enough to learn about this game as it is.

2. There may be other cards released in the meantime that may be hard counters, or synergise in my lists better against that type of list. These cards may not have even been spoiled yet.

3. The above points give him an unfair advantage.

Really weak excuses in my opinion. He can't test new cards because you are afraid of being at a disadvantage... in a casual match. This game isn't so complicated that understanding and adjusting to new cards (especially simple ones like the TIE Defender titles) would be a monumental task, and you're just denying yourself a learning opportunity by not even trying to play against them.

This may come off harsher than I intended, but really, the whole thing comes off as rather self-serving. I would have no issue playing anyone with proxied cards in a casual game (or even tournament match, if it was allowed), so long as they were proxying things in a way that makes sense (clearly printed and accurate text, etc)

I have no problem with proxies outside of tournaments, as long as we have the correct card text for it. If anything playing against it now give you an advantage when it's officially released, and it help inform you purchasing plans.

There's no real hard counters to the two defender titles coming in wave 8. They're pretty straight forward options, basically one title lets the Defender act similar to a BTL-4 Y-wing (after performing an attack with a 1-3 point cannon, you can perform a primary weapon attack), the other is a bit like IG-88c (you assign an evade token when you perform a 3-5 speed maneuver, but you loose you cannon & missile slots). And theres the tractor beam, which deals no damage but decreases your agility by 1 each time it hits, and the first hit on a small ship forces a straight boost or barrel roll.

My take is to say no to the proxy of cards, especially the unreleased ones, unless are specifically trying to determine a purchase or preparing for some kind of tournament; I'm not sure I'd really classify a "casual" game as either one of those.

While you may be pretty sure a spoiled card will show up there is still the chance it may change. At times there are also those wonderful little issues about exactly how an upgrade is supposed to work which would not be answered until after it is released; it would be a real shame to get practiced with a card one way and then find out that isn't really how it was going to work.

I've proxied the x7 Defender title and Long Range Scanners in a casual game before. Great fun, Imperial Boba with Homing Missiles, LRS, and Weapons Engineer is a beast and Vessery is invincible with x7.

3 Situations:

1.) You're playing casually.

2.) You're playing casually, yet practicing for a tournament.

3.) You're playing in a tournament.

No reason not to play with unreleased content in a situation #1. #2 it's arguable, I could see wanting some serious practice against Kanan Dash or against a Jumpmaster ahead of time before they release.

In my group, if its been previewed/leaked, its legal. Ill even print out cards and place them in sleeves until I've got the real card in hand.

1. I don't follow or research unreleased cards very much. There's enough to learn about this game as it is.

2. There may be other cards released in the meantime that may be hard counters, or synergise in my lists better against that type of list. These cards may not have even been spoiled yet.

3. The above points give him an unfair advantage.

I feel the same way. I'll indulge a friend if they really want to test out some unreleased stuff, but I won't care about the results of the match. If I had limited time to play at the shop and this was maybe the only game I would get to play in a week, I'd kindly ask my opponent to play a squad with current releases only.

I (used to) proxy cards all the time. My collection has grown now to the point where I usually don't have to. (Not to "Mistakes Were Made" level, but...I've got a collection, now...)

That said, if the proxied cards have not yet been released, I try to remember to mention that to my opponent and ask if they're okay with it. I do have one person I regularly play against that dislikes my using unreleased content: no worries, I'm careful now not to do that with him (he's a great guy, and fun to play against, just dislikes the idea, *shrug*).

However. If you object--again, in casual play--to playing against proxied upgrades that have already been released...well, then you're just insisting on a wallet advantage. There's a name for people like that, and it's...not flattering. ; )

I like proxying unreleased stuff, so that I know whether I want to buy it, especially if I can do it with the models that I have already. But I'll always ask my opponents if they are happy for me to do it, and if not, I'll always have an alternative list without unreleased content in it. And obviously, only in casual play.

I'll usually proxy even for released material I own, just because printing out the list from the list builder is a lot easier to manage when moving between tables and shuffling around so things aren't in the way of ships, than having all the cards, not to mention that i don't have a good storage solution for my upgrade cards yet so finding everything is a HUGE faff.

I'll tend not to proxy anything that's released but I don't own (or at least, plan on buying soon but the FLGS don't have in yet or whatever) because I don't want to get used to using like, Palpatine or the TIE/Adv. fixes when I don't intend to buy a Raider that will just gather dust forever.

Luke: Are proxy cards stronger?"

Yoda: "No! No…no. Quicker. Easier. More seductive."

If you need to request a legal game, some improvements in human relationships are needed. IMHO the adherence to the Rules 100% of your playing time is a mistake. Of course, if you play against Mr X, a buddy you meet at your LGS, the usual practice should be to play.by the Rulebook.

But sometimes variants should be tested, because I think that mini wargaming is more about imagination and emotions than and not only about rules. But this only work if you are confident with the guy you are matching. You play with him, not against him.

I play against other people when trying to sell my products at my workplace. In my free time I play with people, not against rivals

I have never met anyone that was not OK with playing proxies of spoiled and unspoiled cards.
If I ever meet someone who said: "I would prefer not to play against unreleased cards" I would say ok and play something else.

I don't like proxying unless I'm testing something specific. The ships, cards, tokens and so on are part of the game; if I just played it for the rules I might as well just use cardboard tokens for everything, on any old taped off surface. On the other hand, I would never decline a game against a proxying player unless it got really bad. I play 40k as well, and I think I've had it with "that half-glued bit of plastic floor is a Drop Pod, and the Coke can is a Dreadnought". However, I might say I'd want to change my list a bit too, add a couple of proxies (by which I mean Defender titles, obviously) of my own, to make it even.

Played against a tractor beam b-wing last night and a hera/mangler b-wing too. ( I was really impressed with the hera/fcs bwing, but that poor tractor kept raggedly chasing Guri to no avail the whole game.)

I'd generally recommend you to welcome these matchups - think of them as peering into the future of the game. You get some practice against what will be happening in the near future, so you're not punked by some new fangled mechanic. I actively encourage my opponent to proxy, so I'm not getting a skewed sense of how succesful my list - or my play - is doing.

As others have said, if you're preparing for a tournament, I agree, I'd rather see my opponent play their strongest list, with not unreleased proxies, but that's the exception, not the rule. Not trying to be prescriptive about what your play experience should be here, btw.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with proxy cards in casual matches. This thread is not about that specifically.

When Imperial veterans was announced, I had a buddy that wanted to play me with the defender upgrades. I was quite reticent*. Basically, my argument was that:

1. I don't follow or research unreleased cards very much. There's enough to learn about this game as it is.

2. There may be other cards released in the meantime that may be hard counters, or synergise in my lists better against that type of list. These cards may not have even been spoiled yet.

3. The above points give him an unfair advantage.

What are your thoughts on this?

*(It wasn't a big deal with him either. We played a "standard game".)

So was it a casual match, or not? Was the game ( from your standpoint) prep for a tournament? Do you believe that your buddy would intentionally cheat? Is winning a casual game that important to you, that you can't experiment with new ideas?

It was casual. I am relatively new to the game and he is in my gaming club, and he is probably our best local player, give or take. He would never ever cheat. I do believe it was prior to the local tourney I entered (my only one), and I hope to enter more. I only get to play once a fortnight generally. The funny thing is, that may have actually been the only game I have beaten him iirc (out of maybe 5 or 6 games). I wouldn't play if it wasn't to win, but it's not the reason I play. I've learnt from and had fun losing that's for sure!

This has been a great discussion and opened my eyes to all the various points of view. As you can see, I'm not after confirmation or backup etc. It has made it easier for me to see the merit in playing spoilt proxies moreso than I thought.

Please, keep your opinions coming.

It's not like he's asking to use fan made cards these upgrades are coming you will have to learn how to deal with the new defenders and tractor beams at some point.

We already know most of wave eight there's no hard counters to the veterans stuff and wave nine is yanks away.

You don't have to let him use the proxies buy your delaying the inevitable the rise of the defenders is here adapt or die.

Where do you draw the line, though? Would it be reasonable of me to ask to use TIE/D Vessery with a Tractor Beam, but object to you saying that Falcon is really Hera in the Ghost (likely a strong anti-Vessery tank)?

When you don't have the cards on the table, and three of your ships represent other ships that aren't released yet, it starts to get messy, in my opinion.

It was casual. I am relatively new to the game and he is in my gaming club, and he is probably our best local player, give or take. He would never ever cheat. I do believe it was prior to the local tourney I entered (my only one), and I hope to enter more. I only get to play once a fortnight generally. The funny thing is, that may have actually been the only game I have beaten him iirc (out of maybe 5 or 6 games). I wouldn't play if it wasn't to win, but it's not the reason I play. I've learnt from and had fun losing that's for sure!

This has been a great discussion and opened my eyes to all the various points of view. As you can see, I'm not after confirmation or backup etc. It has made it easier for me to see the merit in playing spoilt proxies moreso than I thought.

Please, keep your opinions coming.

Thanks man, don't make me blush with that compliment. I actually remember that game. I went derp-mode with vessery, and got him killed too early on. And you manage to kill vader but I had a lowly epsilon tie against eaden vrill I believe. Really close match, despite me losing. Good times!

I don't proxy because I don't like the feel it gives to the game. That said I don't mind at all if my opponents proxy cards in casual games, though I ask that they jot the stuff down on post-it notes or print out the list for reference purposes.

I draw the line at proxy ships though, no playing with a TIE Fighter and claiming that it's actually an Interceptor and whatnot.

Heheheheh...

Proxies.

I played a 50 point game against a guy, using his toys, I had left mine at home to avoid playing this guy, but he was insistent. So I ran a tooled up Rexler, but I was using an Autoblaster cannon and he didn't have the card. I had the whole list on a post it note anyways, so I figured whatever, if he wants to see what an Autoblaster does we can ask the store owner to borrow his copy. We all know what PTL does, so it's like dude, why bother taking it out of your binder, you can see my list.

ANywayS...

We play the game, I kick his ass quite badly. The next day he's asking about the upcoming league. Do we have to have the cards for our ships or can we just pretend like DC does?

Like, what a ******* ******* right?

Just get the cards for yourself so you don't have to even deal with these twats. Or better yet, just don't play them at all.