Yes I would exclude the odd person to avoid the unfair bye point system.

So you get why no store is ever going to tell someone who's travelled from wherever carting their X-Wing kit "sorry, you can't play today because it's marginally unfair to give one random player a first-round bye? Thanks for coming! If you've enjoyed your visit please tell your friends!"

It's spending an afternoon pushing plastic ships around a mat in the hope of winning within-a-rounding-error-of nothing. It's the lowest flippin' stakes imaginable. This feels like a weird hill to choose to die on.

You could also have the TO play in the event to round out the numbers. Give him something like 4 Red Squad X-Wings with R2 units. His first match is random, then he always plays the last place player (or the next up if he's already played that guy).

If your TO already plays AND you have an odd number of players, then your TO is doing it wrong.

Regardless, don't stop playing over this. The setup conforms to the FFG rules. Instead, get other friends involved and grow the community.

Randomly handing out the bye is a big problem especially if there are few players. Maybe "you can't have more than one bye" is being carefully enforced but if truly is random if you start with the bye with seven players there is a fair chance you could get it again in the next three rounds.

Not only is this standard for general swiss style events of any type, this is explicitly spelled out in the X-wing Tournament document. I'm not sure what about it would suprise anyone.

Truthfully, I have never been a fan of byes. Does that mean someone should be excluded from the tournament because of an uneven number of players? No. The majority of Warhanner tournaments I have attended have a designated ringer. It is neither the tournament organizer or someone else, but they only play in the event that there is an uneven player pool and they are ineligible for any prizes. Some give them gimme lists where they are supposed to lose, and some let them play how they want with the understanding that they have no chance to win and will not play the top players in the final round.

So what was the outcome?

Did the first player with a bye win, or the second player with a Bye?

How many players went 4-0?

First off, seems like OP is super salty through this whole thread. Second, just win all your games and it won't matter.

EDIT: Everyone else is right - the store is following FFG rules. Byes really don't make a huge impact in the final standings. Like I said, the person who wins out deserves the top spot with that many people. I don't think OP understands that people play X-wing for fun. You don't just tell someone to go home because there happens to be an odd amount of players. And don't trash your LGS for following FFG rules man, not cool - I don't think you realize there are places that don't follow those rules and give players a more hollow experience than you're used to. If they don't want to host a tournament at a certain time, then that's their decision. It's their store and you're lucky they've given you and others the privilege of playing there.

You want something to complain about? 26 players 4 rounds, no cut. For a store tournament. The top two people were seperated by less then 10 points MoV, 3rd and 4th by 1 point, and 5th and six (myself) seperated by 70 points. So if you really wanna complain, get a bigger size and watch how close all the placing is. Otherwise for this size group, you are doing fine.

At this point, I'm just assuming this is the OP's first tournament.

I mean, aside from the round 1 bye, the bye goes to the player doing the worst. It only keeps them in the game, barely, and no more. The bye SUCKS for competitive players, and everyone I know would be incredibly unhappy to get one.

Nobody 'wins the whole event' on a bye. It's just not a thing.

I suggest the OP instead revisit what they did to even put them in the bottom half of the bracket, such that thinking about bye players was even a factor to them, and FIX THAT so they aren't doing so badly next time.

At this point, I'm just assuming this is the OP's first tournament.

I mean, aside from the round 1 bye, the bye goes to the player doing the worst. It only keeps them in the game, barely, and no more. The bye SUCKS for competitive players, and everyone I know would be incredibly unhappy to get one.

Nobody 'wins the whole event' on a bye. It's just not a thing.

I suggest the OP instead revisit what they did to even put them in the bottom half of the bracket, such that thinking about bye players was even a factor to them, and FIX THAT so they aren't doing so badly next time.

The store is running the tournament with byes being totally random. No repeats but random not based on any scores.

I just think that there needs to be more games total to make the Bye system no a deal breaker, good or bad for a player. Depending on the local meta or skill levels you may get a lot of total kill games 100 to 0. Or very likely in todays meta your looking at a much closer game.

The small tournament I was at had over half modified wins as most players ran similar lists and at similar skill levels. In that scenario the Bye is a huge freebie and a great benefit, even nerfed down from 200 to 150. You still get the full 5 point win which in a very competitive 4 game tournament is huge.

4 games really isn't enough to spread out the Byes affect on the scoring. I will wait for a 6-8 game tournament. At least 6 which can be done within reason say on a Saturday afternoon and evening. The store owner simply has to want to do this.

I take issue not with winning but with being not being treated fairly. Byes and Random Byes are not fair in my experience. I would like to win or lose and know that I had a fair shot or won without "help". Otherwise its not fun. Its not for the prize or the ego either. I simply always hate feeling like a situation is unfair.

I will just wait to see how many folks turn out for local tournaments and if there is an odd number I wont join in so as to avoid the Bye issue. I enjoy x wing and the guys I play with so I would hang out and observe for fun even if I choose not to be in the tournament based on turnout.

Its not the end of the world and I will still enjoy x wing when I choose to play it.

If they did random byes, bring it up, otherwise it should, like others said go to lowest scoring person. There is no vendetta against you, you seem to be wanting a problem where there is none. If you want more games for a tournament, either host your own, build the community, or just like you've said play only in even count tournaments. Nothing more or less. This is a serious entitlement issue if anything.

Then the store is doing it wrong. This just in, not following the established procedure will result in things not working right! If byes are correctly applied, 4 rounds is just fine. The only time a bye will give an advantage is if it's a good player that gets the first round one, who would have likely won anyways, and they win all the rest. Or as someone else said, someone loses the first one, gets the bye, then wins out. In that case they still don't win the tournament, but they could place well.

And comparing it to a 2 round event with byes is a silly comparison. Of course that puts more emphasis on them.

At this point, I'm just assuming this is the OP's first tournament.

I mean, aside from the round 1 bye, the bye goes to the player doing the worst. It only keeps them in the game, barely, and no more. The bye SUCKS for competitive players, and everyone I know would be incredibly unhappy to get one.

Nobody 'wins the whole event' on a bye. It's just not a thing.

I suggest the OP instead revisit what they did to even put them in the bottom half of the bracket, such that thinking about bye players was even a factor to them, and FIX THAT so they aren't doing so badly next time.

The store is running the tournament with byes being totally random. No repeats but random not based on any scores.

Well, that's stupid. They are doing it wrong. THERE is the entire problem - end of conversation.

Trust me, when awarding the bye ALWAYS (past round 1) to the lowest-scoring-player, which is what FFG has in the rules, then it's not a problem to have only a four-round tournament with byes and that many players.

For real - I've run a pile of them. USING FFG's RULES, honestly, it works out in the end perfectly - that many rounds, byes and all.

Of course, the best solution to the problem is to just play better. If you win all 4 rounds, 200-0, then it really doesn't matter if EVERYONE got a 150 pt bye for every round (via some kind of quantum tunneling or something) - you still win. "Modified" wins are reasonably uncommon (especially since FFG now requires 75-minute rounds - I assume the store noted that, yes? 60-minute rounds no longer allowed?), after all.

just win all your games and it won't matter.

I'm gonna be that guy: I love getting byes. . I get to walk around, not be a ******* and look at everyone's list, and maybe get some lunch or dinner. Random first bye is even better. Cuz I do have a chance to win all the next 3 rounds.

Round 2 bye is pretty good. I can tweak for my first loss. (Oh wait this isn't magic.) I can practice a new strategy for the 3rd round.

After round 2 it means I lost. Oh well. Go get something to eat. Try again next time.

Byes are awesome. I'll take yours.

.

System is fine if only first is random.

Btw. I don't think it's the same in xwing cuz we have 3D ships and it's pretty hard not to see everything. But I would request that people that have a chance to play me later not watch my games.

In magic I believe this is strictly forbidden at the competitive level. And requested at the casual level.

I've had a guy do this in armada. And he was basically just memorizing all my stuff and planning his entire game while I played another guy. Noting all of my movement preferences.

And it is utmost my right to call the TO on you if you decide to try and talk and point things out as an audience. Do not talk. Or make ooooooo! Noises.

I hate getting the bye. I show up to have fun and play X-Wing.

I don't see how people can enjoy being excluded from play for a round even if it gives you a win.

Btw. I don't think it's the same in xwing cuz we have 3D ships and it's pretty hard not to see everything. But I would request that people that have a chance to play me later not watch my games.

In magic I believe this is strictly forbidden at the competitive level. And requested at the casual level.

I've had a guy do this in armada. And he was basically just memorizing all my stuff and planning his entire game while I played another guy. Noting all of my movement preferences.

And it is utmost my right to call the TO on you if you decide to try and talk and point things out as an audience. Do not talk. Or make ooooooo! Noises.

You can't tell other players not to spectate on the games that are being played at a tournament. Scouting comes with the territory.

If you know that your opponent is memorizing your strategies and tactics in one match, whose fault is it for not adapting in the next? There are whole layers of strategic thinking there that you could be mastering.

I agree that spectators should never coach a match in progress. But reactions are fine.

Participants are required to be respectful. This doesn't mean that they have to sequester themselves from all possible future opponents, or stay silent if they want to applaud a great play. There was plenty of crowd reaction during the finals at Worlds, and there's always some good-natured banter and commentary at every tournament I've been to.

Btw. I don't think it's the same in xwing cuz we have 3D ships and it's pretty hard not to see everything. But I would request that people that have a chance to play me later not watch my games.

In magic I believe this is strictly forbidden at the competitive level. And requested at the casual level.

I've had a guy do this in armada. And he was basically just memorizing all my stuff and planning his entire game while I played another guy. Noting all of my movement preferences.

And it is utmost my right to call the TO on you if you decide to try and talk and point things out as an audience. Do not talk. Or make ooooooo! Noises.

Get over yourself. That's ridiculous.

Only part about that he has any say on is the pointing things out, but this only applies to may clauses, if an audience member points out a mandatory ruling that got over looked, you can't tell him to leave.

Btw. I don't think it's the same in xwing cuz we have 3D ships and it's pretty hard not to see everything. But I would request that people that have a chance to play me later not watch my games.

In magic I believe this is strictly forbidden at the competitive level. And requested at the casual level.

I've had a guy do this in armada. And he was basically just memorizing all my stuff and planning his entire game while I played another guy. Noting all of my movement preferences.

And it is utmost my right to call the TO on you if you decide to try and talk and point things out as an audience. Do not talk. Or make ooooooo! Noises.

I think that's strictly your problem. I don't think it's ok in X-wing to lean on secrecy to win. You're not supposed to win a game because the opponent wasn't prepared for your 3-move opening.

And it is utmost my right to call the TO on you if you decide to try and talk and point things out as an audience. Do not talk. Or make ooooooo! Noises.

Pointing things out isn't necessarily on, but ooooo noises?

This is not a problem with the game, but of the store and the general idea of how a game tournament system in general operates, and not to mention your own perceived problems.

If they were indeed giving out the byes randomly, then they did it wrong, the first one is always random because there is no way to gauge who the worst player is at that time, all rounds after that are determined to be the 'worst player' essentially last place. The store made an error, and that may have effected the game.

Byes are one of those necessary evils, you will get odd numbered tournaments, and suggesting that someone should sit out to avoid issue is the most selfish thing I've heard on these boards. If I turned up at my local and was told "I'm sorry, we have an even number and you'd tip the scales...sorry, thanks for coming." I'd never go to that store ever again. If it's your choice then while it is your choice and I respect that, I feel you are short changing yourself of an experience. Byes are something I wish we didn't have to have, but there is no other way if there is an odd number of players, which may happen.

My local store is the largest store in the area, and in an X-Wing tournament we get a large pool of players, I believe for the last tourney we did we had 40+ people. Now the Store is a gaming store that has lots of events going on, while I would love it if they spread their gaming over multiple days, they can't do that, because the next day they'll probably have a Yugi-oh or some other event going on and thus need the space, so we are restricted to one day. In that tournament day we fit in 4 rounds of swiss, with a cut to top 4 for the quarter, semi and finals. Now I am not sure if yours was just 4 rounds with no top 4, or if it was 4 rounds and then went to a top 4 cut. I am assuming it was the former, no top 4 cut. This could be a logistics issue with the store itself, or with the players. I know that most players thought that the 4 rounds was actually a lot.

Usually our tournaments start at 11 (10 being the stores opening time) and goes through until 7:30ish (although the store closes at 5). The store accommodates our needs to the best of their ability. Maybe your store is unable to run weekend long events or longer events for other reasons that cannot he helped or solved, in which case you need to convince them by making the player base bigger which would force a longer tournament as per the rules.

Now, speaking as someone who has received a bye (in the very few tournaments I actually play in) it is not fun at all. Yes there are advantages, an automatic win with 150 instead of 200 points earned, as well as a time to rest and relax. However for someone like me who enjoys playing X-Wing, there is nothing more boring than sitting around for an hour waiting for everyone to finish so I can finally have a game.

Now here comes the personal thing, you feel it is unfair, yet you state it's not about winning, or ego or anything like that, its about being fair. Surely the point is people have fun and enjoy the game, if someone were to cheat then I would understand, but no one is cheating, the rules are being followed (although not in the case of your store, let us assume a completely 100% above board tournament with an odd number of players) it's only an issue because you make it an issue in your head, you need to get over the notion that it gives someone an advantage, because I have seen it in tournaments, someone with a bye comes low in the tourney, people be all "at least you got a bye to give you a little boost" which I would certainly need in the knowledge that it goes to the worst player. I have also seen the opposite with salty players saying "They only won because they got a bye previously." which is uncalled for and quite frankly childish, considering that bye or no bye, that player must have played well in order to win regardless. It becomes an excuse for players who came lower in the rankings to cast doubt on the 'legitimacy' of the rankings of players with a bye, when really, its not about winning.

Deal with it in whatever way you feel, but deal with it. There is nothing that will change within the rules, the only way it can be effected is if you talk to your store and find a way to hammer it out, you simply suck it up and never play in a tournament again which is a loss for you, or you accept that byes exist in this game, and all other games that have a tournament structure and actually enjoy the game as a game rather than the competition people think it as.

VanderLegion, on 29 Jan 2016 - 6:51 PM, said:VanderLegion, on 29 Jan 2016 - 6:51 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, why don't you feel that a bye is as big of a deal in a 6 round tournament vs a 4 round?

Let me put it this way. If there were 2 games total to be played, with 13 players and 2 byes were handed out at random would that be groovy for you?

Its all down to the math. In a larger pool of games to be played the Byes themselves would not factor in as much. In the 2 game scenario you would be pretty dense to think it would not matter. The more games played the less the Bye system screws up the rankings.

Edit note - Again the issue is resolved as I will simply not sign up for a tournament with an odd number of players. I get it the Bye system is loved by all and deal with it. Hence I will in my own way. Thank you.

The bye system at the store is a bit unfair if a person that has won games already gets one, but as already numerous people have mentioned that was not the intent of the system.

I'll point out that with 13 players you will (likely) get 6 wins and a 7th with the bye. With 14 players, you're still likely to end up with the exact same number of wins. So, to those actually playing there's really not a significant difference in the outcome of the round as a whole.

4 games really isn't enough to spread out the Byes affect on the scoring. I will wait for a 6-8 game tournament. At least 6 which can be done within reason say on a Saturday afternoon and evening. The store owner simply has to want to do this.

And one more thing. If I ever attend a tournament that you're at, I'll make sure I'm the odd person so you'll drop. Less competition for me = easier chance to win.

xanderf, on 30 Jan 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

Tokyogriz, on 29 Jan 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

xanderf, on 29 Jan 2016 - 10:48 PM, said:

At this point, I'm just assuming this is the OP's first tournament.

I mean, aside from the round 1 bye, the bye goes to the player doing the worst. It only keeps them in the game, barely, and no more. The bye SUCKS for competitive players, and everyone I know would be incredibly unhappy to get one.

Nobody 'wins the whole event' on a bye. It's just not a thing.

I suggest the OP instead revisit what they did to even put them in the bottom half of the bracket, such that thinking about bye players was even a factor to them, and FIX THAT so they aren't doing so badly next time.

The store is running the tournament with byes being totally random. No repeats but random not based on any scores.

Well, that's stupid. They are doing it wrong. THERE is the entire problem - end of conversation.

Trust me, when awarding the bye ALWAYS (past round 1) to the lowest-scoring-player, which is what FFG has in the rules, then it's not a problem to have only a four-round tournament with byes and that many players.

For real - I've run a pile of them. USING FFG's RULES, honestly, it works out in the end perfectly - that many rounds, byes and all.

Of course, the best solution to the problem is to just play better. If you win all 4 rounds, 200-0, then it really doesn't matter if EVERYONE got a 150 pt bye for every round (via some kind of quantum tunneling or something) - you still win. "Modified" wins are reasonably uncommon (especially since FFG now requires 75-minute rounds - I assume the store noted that, yes? 60-minute rounds no longer allowed?), after all.

The store had been doing 60 minute rounds but changed to 75 last time. They stated they were handed byes out at random. This seems likely as I beat my first opponent 200 to 0 and he did not receive a bye. I am pretty sure no other 1st round games were total wipes except ours.

I will point out this issue to the store owner next time I am in the shop. Hopefully they will change it.

You can say modified wins are uncommon but I am seeing a lot of them around here. It seems in this very open meta that 20-30% of timed games I see are in fact modified wins or very close to it. The Bye is worth 5 points a modified win is 3. When there is only a handful of games 3-4 then this does make a much larger impact with a much smaller chance of mitigation by just playing more games.

Maybe your a champion that no one can touch and you kill everyone every game. Winning 200 to 0 EVERY GAME must be sweet!