When I get to make it to the game store, it's a 2hr drive. I hate byes,came to play after all, but that's way better than being told "sorry man,you made the player count odd,so just go back home".

As far as "scouting" other people's lists goes, I'm probably not going to face all of them....it's nice to see what other people come up with. Sometimes you see combos you haven't thought of. It's part of the fun. And I'm sorry, but if you fly your list the same way versus every list you don't really need to worry about the guy that gets a "free" 150pt win. Just my opinion.

I don't really know what to tell you if you want to play tournaments without byes. I've played a lot of tournaments for a lot of games for the better part of two decades and every single one of them used the same bye system.

Also, how many rounds would you expect in a 13 person tournament? After one round you have 7 undefeated, after 2 you have 3-4, after 3 you have 1-2, and after 4 rounds you have no more than 1 undefeated so what's the point of additional rounds when you already have a clear winner?

I guess maybe organize your own tournaments? I'm not sure you'll have much success, though, because if I heard about a tournament that was going to be 2+ hours longer than necessary and/or was possibly going to completely exclude someone then I wouldn't even bother to sign up.

We ran a very similar tournament last weekend. 13 players, four rounds. The first round bye was chosen randomly and each round after the bye was given to the player with the lowest score. The overall winner (who happened to be my fifteen-year old son) went 4-0 and never got a bye. On the other side, no one went totally undefeated since the bye counted as a win. We had no complaints and a good time was had by all.

xanderf, on 30 Jan 2016 - 12:10 AM, said:

Tokyogriz, on 29 Jan 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

xanderf, on 29 Jan 2016 - 10:48 PM, said:

At this point, I'm just assuming this is the OP's first tournament.

I mean, aside from the round 1 bye, the bye goes to the player doing the worst. It only keeps them in the game, barely, and no more. The bye SUCKS for competitive players, and everyone I know would be incredibly unhappy to get one.

Nobody 'wins the whole event' on a bye. It's just not a thing.

I suggest the OP instead revisit what they did to even put them in the bottom half of the bracket, such that thinking about bye players was even a factor to them, and FIX THAT so they aren't doing so badly next time.

The store is running the tournament with byes being totally random. No repeats but random not based on any scores.

Well, that's stupid. They are doing it wrong. THERE is the entire problem - end of conversation.

Trust me, when awarding the bye ALWAYS (past round 1) to the lowest-scoring-player, which is what FFG has in the rules, then it's not a problem to have only a four-round tournament with byes and that many players.

For real - I've run a pile of them. USING FFG's RULES, honestly, it works out in the end perfectly - that many rounds, byes and all.

Of course, the best solution to the problem is to just play better. If you win all 4 rounds, 200-0, then it really doesn't matter if EVERYONE got a 150 pt bye for every round (via some kind of quantum tunneling or something) - you still win. "Modified" wins are reasonably uncommon (especially since FFG now requires 75-minute rounds - I assume the store noted that, yes? 60-minute rounds no longer allowed?), after all.

The store had been doing 60 minute rounds but changed to 75 last time. They stated they were handed byes out at random. This seems likely as I beat my first opponent 200 to 0 and he did not receive a bye. I am pretty sure no other 1st round games were total wipes except ours.

I will point out this issue to the store owner next time I am in the shop. Hopefully they will change it.

You can say modified wins are uncommon but I am seeing a lot of them around here. It seems in this very open meta that 20-30% of timed games I see are in fact modified wins or very close to it. The Bye is worth 5 points a modified win is 3. When there is only a handful of games 3-4 then this does make a much larger impact with a much smaller chance of mitigation by just playing more games.

Maybe your a champion that no one can touch and you kill everyone every game. Winning 200 to 0 EVERY GAME must be sweet!

If the store was doing 60 minute rounds thats also not following FFGs tournament rules, which now specify 75 minute rounds and removed the ability for TOs to change round length. That would also cause a lot more modified wins as less games are fi ished in time. Also, are modified wins actually being done correctly (only modified if the winner has less than 12 points more destroyed than his opponent, not just games going to time)? If theyre doing byes and round limits wrong, its possible they could be doong that wrong too....

Btw. I don't think it's the same in xwing cuz we have 3D ships and it's pretty hard not to see everything. But I would request that people that have a chance to play me later not watch my games.

In magic I believe this is strictly forbidden at the competitive level. And requested at the casual level.

I've had a guy do this in armada. And he was basically just memorizing all my stuff and planning his entire game while I played another guy. Noting all of my movement preferences.

And it is utmost my right to call the TO on you if you decide to try and talk and point things out as an audience. Do not talk. Or make ooooooo! Noises.

I think that's strictly your problem. I don't think it's ok in X-wing to lean on secrecy to win. You're not supposed to win a game because the opponent wasn't prepared for your 3-move opening.

I do think it's less strict in Xwing because it is less planned. also basically all your cards and ships are on the table. The ooooo problem is this: people leaning over watching you set dials. And as you set one they go oooooooooo. That's first rude. Second it tells the opponent you did the less likely move. Because no one will oooooo about the obvious move. I've had that happen in magic where I calculated I only had 1 chance off of one card to do a trick to win. And I drew it and someone in the back totally telegraphed I had what I needed.

In armada I'd be pretty mad: armada is much more based on planning and your opening strategy and you also have secret parts of your build.

Either way it's also respectful to ask if you can spectate. And if you're going to face me next I find that pretty distasteful. And I'll tell you. And call the TO. And even if the TO disagrees I won't be happy to play you.

Btw. I don't think it's the same in xwing cuz we have 3D ships and it's pretty hard not to see everything. But I would request that people that have a chance to play me later not watch my games.

In magic I believe this is strictly forbidden at the competitive level. And requested at the casual level.

I've had a guy do this in armada. And he was basically just memorizing all my stuff and planning his entire game while I played another guy. Noting all of my movement preferences.

And it is utmost my right to call the TO on you if you decide to try and talk and point things out as an audience. Do not talk. Or make ooooooo! Noises.

I think that's strictly your problem. I don't think it's ok in X-wing to lean on secrecy to win. You're not supposed to win a game because the opponent wasn't prepared for your 3-move opening.

I do think it's less strict in Xwing because it is less planned. also basically all your cards and ships are on the table. The ooooo problem is this: people leaning over watching you set dials. And as you set one they go oooooooooo. That's first rude. Second it tells the opponent you did the less likely move. Because no one will oooooo about the obvious move. I've had that happen in magic where I calculated I only had 1 chance off of one card to do a trick to win. And I drew it and someone in the back totally telegraphed I had what I needed.

In armada I'd be pretty mad: armada is much more based on planning and your opening strategy and you also have secret parts of your build.

Either way it's also respectful to ask if you can spectate. And if you're going to face me next I find that pretty distasteful. And I'll tell you. And call the TO. And even if the TO disagrees I won't be happy to play you.

I didn't comment on spectators not being quiet. That's rude in every context, for every game.

I don't agree that it's respectful to ask, I find it quite weird in fact. For Vassal tournaments you're obligated to give log files of previous games if asked (at least in the TeamCovenant one that's running now). That's the complete opposite! So I'm pretty sure you're in the minority when it comes to secrecy in gaming. It's not like I'm a peering over your kitchen window to look at your super-secret training sessions, I'm just watching a game in a public setting.

Revealing "secret" information before it is revealed to an opponent is wrong but other than that spectators should be encouraged. If possible keep them to the sides and any "secret" information is far more likely to stay that way.

Now as for byes a bye plus three modified wins is a 4-0 record but just 14 tournament points. Someone goes 3-1 but with full wins and they still defeat the guy who went "undefeated" because they get 15 points off those three wins. Now that random bye after winning the first two games would certainly be sweet (from a metagame PoV) to rest up and scout any other undefeated players prior to the final game but IT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. That is where so many of the problems seem to be coming from.

Yes I would exclude the odd person to avoid the unfair bye point system.

If I was the odd number that would include me with no complaints.

Personally i'd far rather see there be a bye than for someone to just not get to play at all.

I agree. I'd hate to tell someone showing up to play, "Sorry, no Homers allowed." That'd kill a community real fast.

4 rounds is enough for 13 people to end up with 1 undefeated player, which gives you a definite first place, then second on down can be determined from MoV. I don't love it, I've come in 2nd a ton of times at tournaments where I never actually got to PLAY the first place player, but the only way to fix that is by having a Cut to the top 4 or such, which means at least another 2 rounds (for the people that make the cut at least), and doesn't match the round structure listed by FFG in the tournament rules now.

As for Byes, the only person it realistically might help win is the first round. Then they only have to win 3 games to go undefeated instead of 4. After the first round, the bye goes to the last place player, which means they've already lost at least 1 game and are out of the running for first place regardless. personally I'd WAY rather have byes due to an odd number of players as opposed to someone showing up for a tournament and not being allowed to play. That's just not fun for them.

Where I live we do 4 rounds + a Top 2 (to allow the the 1st and 2nd to at least fight each others).

Only the first BYE is "unfair", the other ones means you are the last one. And the first one is not really an advantage because it is a a 150 pts MoV (while you can usually do better in the first match if you are matched with a player less skilled than you), which might cut you out of first or 2nd place.

To put my 2 cents in:

The number of rounds calculation and the assignment of the bye (as it is supposed to be assigned) is essentially the same in x-wing as it is in Magic (and most other competitive tcg's/wargames that I've come across.

Up to 8 players; 3 rounds

9-16 players: 4 rounds

17-32 players: 5 rounds

33-64 players: 6 rounds

etc...

Assuming Swiss pairings (players on the same/close points paired against each other, only play each opponent once in the Swiss) it's actually a really great way of efficiently determining an overall winner. The vast majority of the time you will have one (and only one) undefeated player at the end off the Swiss.

Playing more than the recommended number of rounds actually isn't great because it tends to cause quite illogical pairings near the top and bottom of the rankings and can immensely complicate the determining of a winner since it creates the potential for multiple players at the top to be on the same (or very similar points)

Regarding the bye:

Yes it's kinda annoying, and yes it's not ideal that the first round bye goes to a random player.

(I don't see that being particularly fixable unless FFG has plans to use some kind of ELO system to seed tournaments).

However, byes in the second and subsequent rounds should go to the lowest ranked player (or at the very least a random player on the lowest common points total). If byes are random after the first round then that store is doing it wrong, and you should probably have a chat with the TO about it.

Who cares who ended up getting a Bye in round one? I'm going undefeated anyway, so they aren't stealing my Scooby Snacks.