Dat pic! Hilarious

Is that a Raider in alternate paint scheme?

Is that a Raider in alternate paint scheme?

Oh god, yes please! That's all I want to see now lol.

Quick, someone with better paint skills get on this. A yellow and black raider!

Is that a Raider in alternate paint scheme?

Oh god, yes please! That's all I want to see now lol.

Quick, someone with better paint skills get on this. A yellow and black raider!

BUZZ BUZZ BUZZ BUZZ BUZZ

Back to the thread, I ran a Raider as an escort for an ISD2. I held it until I thought I had a chance to outflank a corvette and frigate that were trying to get behind the big boy. As soon as I split it off to go after the corvette, it got toasted by the duo then I had no security for the ISD. Soooo, I'm thinking keep it close to help defend against close-range attackers (corvettes, frigates, fighters, etc) outflanking the main ship/body of the fleet and only dash it out if there is an objective or to deal a death stroke to an already activated/crippled ship.

I think the speed is great. Keep it behind the isd1 at speed 3 to protect its rear. When the isd1 is going to get into close range of its target, slow it down to 2, and speed Raider to 4 to meet the target in front. You get all of it in the face at the same time. Preferably a Raider at both sides of isd1.

I'm also coming around to using the Raider-II over the Raider-I. The Raider-I is very high-risk high-reward and I've found in general it works best when you're trying to optimize it for squadron support (Ordnance Experts for sure to just lay down crazy flak) and then Concentrate Fire to ping things from medium range with +1 blue dice unless you can get reliably into short range from the rear of an enemy ship (this is what the speed 4 is for - starting on a flank and speeding in to go after rear hull zones by the mid to late game, all other close-range approaches are flirting with death).

The Raider-II doesn't suffer as badly from the Raider-I's identity crisis. The Raider-I is packing an ordnance upgrade slot and 2 black dice in the front and so you think "oh, so I get up close and throw black dice at things" because you're an Imperial player and you love getting up close and throwing black dice at things. The problem is the Raider's defense token suite works best at long to medium range but its attack dice suite works best at medium to short range. Once you're in short range, you get full dice applicability but nearly zero defense token applicability, leading to a lot of suicidal attack runs, particularly solo (ARE YOU INSANE?). The Raider-II, particularly with the SW-7 Ion Cannons, wants to be hanging out in medium range where it can consistently lay down reliable damage and can still benefit from its evade tokens.

I'll also repeat what I've said earlier about Raiders: they are force multipliers. In order to work well against enemy ships, they need larger friendly ships to draw enemy fire and for the enemy to maneuver relative to. The Raider can exploit this by maneuvering into blind spots and by hopefully avoiding the worst of the possible shots on its way in. In order to work well against enemy squadrons, they need friendly squadrons to team up with. The friendlies help pin enemy squadrons in place to receive a thorough flakking and they also keep enemy bombers from tearing the Raider into pieces (which they will do quite happily).

In short, I keep seeing people trying to run Raider-Is like baby Gladiators. I tried that a lot with my Sullust Raider (with Expanded Launchers and Ordnance Experts). It can work but you need a really good set-up to make it happen and support from other elements of your fleet. In the long run I've found that Gladiators are better Gladiators than Raiders ever will be and so you need to treat them with more care and with greater consideration to how they're interacting with the rest of your fleet. They can't go solo very well at all.

I'm looking for an excuse to start running Raiders.

Thus far, I'm the guy in the local meta who runs squadron-heavy lists (e.g. Rhymer+5TIE Bombers+Dengar+Escorts), and I've generally been able to keep and maintain starfighter superiority, so I don't need an AA ship. The rest of my local meta doesn't really play fighters that much, so I have no incentive to use a Raider in that role.

As Schmitty noted earlier, this local meta is also dominated by 2-big ship builds, either 2 Imperial-classes or 2 MC80 Cruisers. It strikes me that this is a hostile environment for the Raider to emerge into, even if it would be great to get lists with more activations. Those big ships can just easily one-shot a Raider that gets in their arc of fire, especially with Ackbar around.

So, how should I think about making the Raider useful in this scene? (For a run-down of local lists, please see my posting on HNN of yesterday's Store Championship).

I'm looking for an excuse to start running Raiders.

Thus far, I'm the guy in the local meta who runs squadron-heavy lists (e.g. Rhymer+5TIE Bombers+Dengar+Escorts), and I've generally been able to keep and maintain starfighter superiority, so I don't need an AA ship. The rest of my local meta doesn't really play fighters that much, so I have no incentive to use a Raider in that role.

As Schmitty noted earlier, this local meta is also dominated by 2-big ship builds, either 2 Imperial-classes or 2 MC80 Cruisers. It strikes me that this is a hostile environment for the Raider to emerge into, even if it would be great to get lists with more activations. Those big ships can just easily one-shot a Raider that gets in their arc of fire, especially with Ackbar around.

So, how should I think about making the Raider useful in this scene? (For a run-down of local lists, please see my posting on HNN of yesterday's Store Championship).

Alternatively Raiders similar to my world cup list (expanded launcher+Intel officer+Ordinance experts) swarming due fantastic against Large ships with activation superiority. If you have 5 or so ships (2-3 raiders plus 1-2 glads) it is fairly simple to jump in front of the enemy and then wait (with your extra activations) for them to move into close range where you can inflict massive damage

My own experience with the Raider is as follows:

They are great AA platforms, with Instigator and either Ordnance Experts or Ruthless Strategists. Specifically, they are great AA platforms in conjunction with a small escort of TIE Fighters (or TIE Advanceds for the extra Hull points with Ruthless Strategists). By using the corvette in conjunction with some air superiority squadrons, you get the following:

• Bog down massive enemy attack wings with both the Raider and the TIE Fighters. You may be surrendering victory points to your opponent, but if you time it right you're taking 100+ points of his forces away from their primary mission (bombing your big ships) right when your opponent needs them most. You'll also make some of your points back from the damage you dish out.
• If your opponent splits his fighter forces, you can send your Raider after one group and your TIEs after another, again, bogging down the enemy formations at the right time.
• If your opponent's squadrons aren't benefiting from Intel, then your TIEs will protect the Raider. If Intel is on the board, then your Raider will still do a great job of bogging down important enemy fighter wings, whilst the TIEs throw in extra damage.
• Against minimal-fighter lists, the Raider is still great for grabbing objectives, getting activations, and generally giving you more flexibility, whilst the TIEs only amount to 24 points, and they can still attack ships if you place them right.

The other thing I've found is that a Raider, even with all anti-air upgrades, is still more than a match for a CR90, and even a Nebulon B, if you fly it right. This makes it great for hunting other corvettes - get it in close and in their weakest arcs and keep hitting them with those juicy black dice. This forces your opponent to either activate those ships first to get them out of dodge - meaning they're missing out on a better order of activation with their bigger ships - or, you're taking out their escorts with relative ease, racking up points and degrading your opponent's tactical options.

But what is definitely true, and what has definitely been said already, is that Raiders are absolutely a part of a bigger fleet, and not a fleet on their own. You need to use them in conjunction with other things to get the most out of them, and they shouldn't be relied upon to do the most important tasks in your fleet. But, the Raider is really versatile, even when you've upgraded it for a specific role - and you have to plan how you're going to use it in each game, and time its interventions correctly. Basically, you have to be careful - the Gladiator is a knuckleduster, the Imperial is a hammer, and the Raider is a scalpel. The Victory is a marble bust of the Emperor - it'll hurt when it connects, but your opponent really needs to not be paying attention if you're going to land a blow.

For me, if I'm not taking a bomber wing of my own then I'd rather have a Raider than the equivalent points in fighter squadrons, for loads of different reasons, including the extra activation, the ability to tackle ships effectively (if carefully) and the fact that I just love having a cute angry space triangle to go along with all of my chunky angry space triangles.

The Victory is a marble bust of the Emperor - it'll hurt when it connects, but your opponent really needs to not be paying attention if you're going to land a blow.

I died'd

I did have a discussion with another player this past weekend about using the Raider in an AA role. Basically it just invites the ship to be targeted and destroyed first by an intel-bomber swarm, handing 44+ points to your opponent. It might be worth taking one with a fighter screen though?

And maybe that's where the VSD can work? Two raiders with fighter-bomber screens on the approach while a VSD-I with torps slips in and face punches. Sounds like it could work... though this still means Raiders must have fighters to go with them.

I was helping a friend play last weekend and I advised him to fly into the Rymerball as it would force the bombers to split up and potentially attack several shields rather than being able to concentrate on working through one. I can't say it was spectacular advice as the 5 bombers proceeded to roll Hit/Crit on each dice but it is worth trying if you are getting desperate.

Alternatively Raiders similar to my world cup list (expanded launcher+Intel officer+Ordinance experts) swarming due fantastic against Large ships with activation superiority. If you have 5 or so ships (2-3 raiders plus 1-2 glads) it is fairly simple to jump in front of the enemy and then wait (with your extra activations) for them to move into close range where you can inflict massive damage

This is how I have used them. If you have activation advantage, they make tremendous ambush ships. They actually work fairly similarly to the MC-30 Torpedo ships in that regard. I would describe them as needing patient tactics to make the most of them.

After the success I had with 3x CR-90s and 2x MC-30s, I'm curious if I can find an imperial equivalent.

I was helping a friend play last weekend and I advised him to fly into the Rymerball as it would force the bombers to split up and potentially attack several shields rather than being able to concentrate on working through one. I can't say it was spectacular advice as the 5 bombers proceeded to roll Hit/Crit on each dice but it is worth trying if you are getting desperate.

Please don't ever do this ever. All you're doing is making the Firespray's job easier. Instead of splitting them, all you're going to do is bring the target closer. Remember that they can move *through* ships.

I was helping a friend play last weekend and I advised him to fly into the Rymerball as it would force the bombers to split up and potentially attack several shields rather than being able to concentrate on working through one. I can't say it was spectacular advice as the 5 bombers proceeded to roll Hit/Crit on each dice but it is worth trying if you are getting desperate.

Please don't ever do this ever. All you're doing is making the Firespray's job easier. Instead of splitting them, all you're going to do is bring the target closer. Remember that they can move *through* ships.

I was helping a friend play last weekend and I advised him to fly into the Rymerball as it would force the bombers to split up and potentially attack several shields rather than being able to concentrate on working through one. I can't say it was spectacular advice as the 5 bombers proceeded to roll Hit/Crit on each dice but it is worth trying if you are getting desperate.

One does not simply fly

into a Rhymerball.

Tried out clontroper5's World Cup list. Daaaaaamn is it fun!

And not only fun, it's pretty brutal. Vs a Mon Mothma list with an MC80 Command, 2 CR90B's (one with Jaina's Light, the other bare) and an MC30c Torpedo Frigate. The bare CR90 got Demolished (that Expanded Launcher front arc is amazing) and then the MC30 got Demolished after a Raider (Expanded Launchers) softened it up heavily before dying to the MC80. End of turn 3 I had a solid activation advantage (and first player) with 2 Raiders in a good position to hit the MC80 as it lumbered forward and the Demolisher ready to double arc it.

So yeah, clontroper5 is on to something!

Was gonna buy two Raiders off a friend who bought six, but might have to buy four now!!

I was helping a friend play last weekend and I advised him to fly into the Rymerball as it would force the bombers to split up and potentially attack several shields rather than being able to concentrate on working through one. I can't say it was spectacular advice as the 5 bombers proceeded to roll Hit/Crit on each dice but it is worth trying if you are getting desperate.

Please don't ever do this ever. All you're doing is making the Firespray's job easier. Instead of splitting them, all you're going to do is bring the target closer. Remember that they can move *through* ships.

instigator...

Not exactly, but the ball was acting through the Squadron Phase so it was move OR Shoot rather than Move AND Shoot.

By doing this he had a fighter in his rear, 2 on his port and another two on his starboard or some similar arrangement. Had he moved elsewhere he would have had them on his port OR starboard. It was the best idea we could come up with for his rather poor positioning in the previous turn.

I was helping a friend play last weekend and I advised him to fly into the Rymerball as it would force the bombers to split up and potentially attack several shields rather than being able to concentrate on working through one. I can't say it was spectacular advice as the 5 bombers proceeded to roll Hit/Crit on each dice but it is worth trying if you are getting desperate.

Please don't ever do this ever. All you're doing is making the Firespray's job easier. Instead of splitting them, all you're going to do is bring the target closer. Remember that they can move *through* ships.

instigator...

Not exactly, but the ball was acting through the Squadron Phase so it was move OR Shoot rather than Move AND Shoot.

By doing this he had a fighter in his rear, 2 on his port and another two on his starboard or some similar arrangement. Had he moved elsewhere he would have had them on his port OR starboard. It was the best idea we could come up with for his rather poor positioning in the previous turn.

Sounds like the best strategy for what your friend had to work with. The Raider really doesn't want to be taking concentrated fire on any single hull zone, even from squadrons.

Drawing the strategy out a little further, it also appears to me that this might be another soft Intel counter, too, if you run into a Jan/Dengar ball and have some supporting TIEs. Since the opponent has to put overlapped squadrons adjacent to the ship base, and the Raider's base is so small, all the bombers/squadrons will be pretty spread out. Placing a squadron to engage a squadron on the other side of a ship base at a distance of greater than 1 from an Intel squadron is relatively easy (even for squadrons adjacent to the Intel squadron), and drawing LOS/measuring engagement through a ship breaks engagement anyway, so it's possible to make your TIEs non-heavy by putting them on the opposite side of the Raider from Intel, or beyond distance 1 of the Intel squadron, so at least a couple enemy bombers (and potentially more) have to shoot the TIEs before the Raider. And if you have Instigator, the chance the enemy squadrons realign is very small (only a Chirpy squadron activation, I think). Again, not a cure-all, but even if you only manage to force two of six bombers to shoot fighters and make the other four shoot at split hulls, that's better than having all six shoot at the same hull, right?

Clons list works as it forces a difficult question.

Do you kill the squishy raiders first as they are easy to kill. Or do you kill the demo first as its a monster?

Its managed to find a way to stop the demo being auto first target.

Played a guy in a store championship recently who ran a raider swarm with a gladiator.

2 of the raiders ran with ruthless strategists and some tie bombers. Kinda brutal as they activate the bombers with them to shoot first, then they shoot at the squadrons themself and then use ruthless strategists to add an extra damage onto each squadrons shot at and one to the bombers (which can tank decently due to decent hull) My X wings didn't last too long.

Was this at Dark Sphere BTW? If so, I'm the Raider Spammer in question

I've moved away now from Ruthless Strategists as they were awkward to set up. Instead I've switched them for RDR-Is with expanded hangers and a compliment of interceptors. This build is more flexible at taking out enemy squadrons, and I can always launch Iggy into the fray to take out Dengar if necessary It does mean that I lose out on having bombers around to help with anti-ship work, but I'm finding this not to be so much of a problem - I do have the other 2 RDRs with Ordnance Experts and Expanded Launchers after all

I've added a blog post about my own love of the Raider, backed up by a small amount of tournament experience. Hopefully it will be relevant to the discussion.

YOU GET NECROMANCY!!

Actually there are raiders haters around yet so it seems a good thread to revisit

3 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Actually there are raiders haters around yet so it seems a good thread to revisit

There's still people who hate the Raider? But.... Why?