The shield gauntlet is in the new Guardian sourcebook, Keeping the Peace, and it allows the user to use the Reflect talent as if they had a lightsaber. It's even a Brawl weapon, if I recall right.

This has answered the OP question, I'm not sure what else needs to be said. The PC can use Reflect if they have this item, if they don't then the PC is SOL. No need to house Rule anything when the RAW already has a solution.

Okay, first, OP stated that he's not changing the accidental ruling he made before and specifically requested ways to make it work.

Reflect is balanced by the fact that you have to purchase it, it costs strain to use, and you have to have reached a point where you've paid for an expensive piece of equipment, not the narrative effects of wielding a lightsaber in public. Those are just icing on the cake, because there's a lot of narrative baggage associated with getting and owning a lightsaber, to be sure, but not fundamentally part of the "balance equation." In fact, it pretty clear that the only part of using a lightsaber that could possibly need balancing narratively are its offensive capabilities, which the player in question is decidedly not benefiting from.

It certainly doesn't even remotely broach the territory of munchkinism to make an accommodation for a player doing something you want to encourage, especially when they've chosen a specifically inferior combat path because they enjoy the story. Calling it so is just absurd and unnecessary (as is the whole "snowflake" pejorative).

Umm, no? Reflect is balanced by the fact that you have to purchase it, it costs Strain to use, and you have to have a Lightsaber in hand. Whether that Lightsaber is blue, green, transparent, or prismatic. You need an energy sword to counter the energy bolt being fired at you. You can't do that with flesh and bone, no matter how strong your Kung Fu.

Gunslingers can't point their finger and yell "Bang!" Just b/c they've accumulated enough XP to purchase Natural Marksman, doesn't mean they can skip actually wielding a Blaster.

When a player says "I want to do something totally unique, and I want to be extra awesome because of it" that's pretty much the definition of Special Snowflake .

On the other hand, once we get out into the EU, we quickly come across a ton of "special snowflake" Force users... it almost becomes a requirement of being a named character eventually.

Did a little search on the forums here and got these results...

"Your search for the term special snowflake returned 120 results"

"Your search for the term star wars returned 74 results"

...and that makes me kind of sad. I would prefer to have honest discussions instead of posturing and throwing out nearly-meaningless, derogatory labels.

Okay, first, OP stated that he's not changing the accidental ruling he made before and specifically requested ways to make it work.

Reflect is balanced by the fact that you have to purchase it, it costs strain to use, and you have to have reached a point where you've paid for an expensive piece of equipment, not the narrative effects of wielding a lightsaber in public. Those are just icing on the cake, because there's a lot of narrative baggage associated with getting and owning a lightsaber, to be sure, but not fundamentally part of the "balance equation." In fact, it pretty clear that the only part of using a lightsaber that could possibly need balancing narratively are its offensive capabilities, which the player in question is decidedly not benefiting from.

It certainly doesn't even remotely broach the territory of munchkinism to make an accommodation for a player doing something you want to encourage, especially when they've chosen a specifically inferior combat path because they enjoy the story. Calling it so is just absurd and unnecessary (as is the whole "snowflake" pejorative).

Umm, no? Reflect is balanced by the fact that you have to purchase it, it costs Strain to use, and you have to have a Lightsaber in hand. Whether that Lightsaber is blue, green, transparent, or prismatic. You need an energy sword to counter the energy bolt being fired at you. You can't do that with flesh and bone, no matter how strong your Kung Fu.

Gunslingers can't point their finger and yell "Bang!" Just b/c they've accumulated enough XP to purchase Natural Marksman, doesn't mean they can skip actually wielding a Blaster.

When a player says "I want to do something totally unique, and I want to be extra awesome because of it" that's pretty much the definition of Special Snowflake .

On the other hand, once we get out into the EU, we quickly come across a ton of "special snowflake" Force users... it almost becomes a requirement of being a named character eventually.

Good thing the EU got tossed out on it's ear in regards to it's status as part of the official canon then, isn't it?

Did a little search on the forums here and got these results...

"Your search for the term special snowflake returned 120 results"

"Your search for the term star wars returned 74 results"

...and that makes me kind of sad. I would prefer to have honest discussions instead of posturing and throwing out nearly-meaningless, derogatory labels.

First off, the search feature on this site itself isn't very well refined.

A Google search of the forums for the words "Star Wars" yields 347 results.

Even then, perhaps the reason why "Star Wars" doesn't happen very much, is b/c we all know what forum we're chatting in. When a family goes to McDonald's and sits down to eat, they don't say "So, how are your McDonald's McNuggets? Do you like your McDonald's fries? Would anyone like to try a bite of my McDonalds hamburger? Isn't it lovely sitting here in McDonald's eating McDonald's food?"

The reason why "Special Snowflake" comes up, is b/c so many players come along going "Well yes, the rules do say that... But I want to be different. I want something nobody else can do."

If anybody is posturing, it's the self-entitled brats who think they should get more and be better than anyone else .

Feel free to read the page I linked with the definition of a Special Snowflake. It will point out, in detail, why it's not "nearly meaningless" to have players like that.

Umm, no? Reflect is balanced by the fact that you have to purchase it, it costs Strain to use, and you have to have a Lightsaber in hand. Whether that Lightsaber is blue, green, transparent, or prismatic. You need an energy sword to counter the energy bolt being fired at you. You can't do that with flesh and bone, no matter how strong your Kung Fu.

Gunslingers can't point their finger and yell "Bang!" Just b/c they've accumulated enough XP to purchase Natural Marksman, doesn't mean they can skip actually wielding a Blaster.

When a player says "I want to do something totally unique, and I want to be extra awesome because of it" that's pretty much the definition of Special Snowflake .

On the other hand, once we get out into the EU, we quickly come across a ton of "special snowflake" Force users... it almost becomes a requirement of being a named character eventually.

Good thing the EU got tossed out on it's ear in regards to it's status as part of the official canon then, isn't it?

At this point, mentioning that it's a bit more nuanced than that is belaboring the obvious, yes?

At any rate, my post was intended with significant irony. "Special snowflake" as a term has drifted off into the same territory as "mary sue"... something that gets slapped on characters as often as a means of easy dismissal as it is anything substantive, too often meaning nothing more terrible than "that character does not suit my tastes".... at least "special snowflake" isn't as laden with unspoken presumptions as "mary sue" too often is.

I wouldn't have allowed it to begin with. The description of the power clearly states that they must use a lightsaber. It does sound to me like the player is trying to munchkin the system and using a Jedi Saber technique to do it. Personally, I would have required the creation of an unarmed form that the player can use and reflect would not be part of it. I would say absorption would have been better for this type of character.

Can we all agree to read the first post before going nutters?

Ok to reiterate. This player wasnt being a super snowflake or whatever derogatory term gives you a space boner. He had a concept about a fringe fighter that didnt like to kill so learned how to take down people with martial arts. We were playing beta and some stuff got done wrong because, you know, learning.

He aquired a fighting tree and had parry and reflect. As his character was wearing a set of mighty cortosis gauntlets i figured that they could act like vaders glove or even parry a sword. Because frankly, i am assuming that cortosis gloves that are meant to disrupt a lightsaber may actually have to touch it at some point.

Thanks for the good responses though. Some good ideas.

Can we all agree to read the first post before going nutters?

Ok to reiterate. This player wasnt being a super snowflake or whatever derogatory term gives you a space boner. He had a concept about a fringe fighter that didnt like to kill so learned how to take down people with martial arts. We were playing beta and some stuff got done wrong because, you know, learning.

He aquired a fighting tree and had parry and reflect. As his character was wearing a set of mighty cortosis gauntlets i figured that they could act like vaders glove or even parry a sword. Because frankly, i am assuming that cortosis gloves that are meant to disrupt a lightsaber may actually have to touch it at some point.

Thanks for the good responses though. Some good ideas.

It might be pushing the some boundaries conceptually, but I don't see it as game breaking. I likely might not let him reflect blaster shots back at a target the way we see with sabers.

Give him a special quest to go find legendary gauntlets or have him craft them. Make them just like Cortosis Gauntlets, but give them the Reflect special property like the shield gauntlet from KtP has. Its narrative and fun for the player.

I agree. It isnt game breaking, and it actually *feels* thematic in its own way. If it was a powergamer I may be more pushy, but this player isnt min maxing or anything.

Edit: not a bad idea master fish!

Maybe this .

Umm, no? Reflect is balanced by the fact that you have to purchase it, it costs Strain to use, and you have to have a Lightsaber in hand. Whether that Lightsaber is blue, green, transparent, or prismatic. You need an energy sword to counter the energy bolt being fired at you. You can't do that with flesh and bone, no matter how strong your Kung Fu.

Gunslingers can't point their finger and yell "Bang!" Just b/c they've accumulated enough XP to purchase Natural Marksman, doesn't mean they can skip actually wielding a Blaster.

When a player says "I want to do something totally unique, and I want to be extra awesome because of it" that's pretty much the definition of Special Snowflake .

On the other hand, once we get out into the EU, we quickly come across a ton of "special snowflake" Force users... it almost becomes a requirement of being a named character eventually.

Good thing the EU got tossed out on it's ear in regards to it's status as part of the official canon then, isn't it?

At this point, mentioning that it's a bit more nuanced than that is belaboring the obvious, yes?

At any rate, my post was intended with significant irony. "Special snowflake" as a term has drifted off into the same territory as "mary sue"... something that gets slapped on characters as often as a means of easy dismissal as it is anything substantive, too often meaning nothing more terrible than "that character does not suit my tastes".... at least "special snowflake" isn't as laden with unspoken presumptions as "mary sue" too often is.

And you obviously missed the ironic sarcasm in my own response.

But on a more serious note, a large part of the EU problem where Jedi were concerned was a lack of general oversight until many of those characters had already been established, and that many authors had the bad habit of treating the Force as being far more powerful than what we'd seen in the original films, acting as though it were magic and could do anything in contrast the theme of psychic abilities (such as mind reading, hypnotic suggestion, ESP, telekinesis) that the films demonstrated. So you had people like Corran Horn for example, who was largely unmatched at mind tricks but couldn't do TK (on top of his already being a top CorSec officer and an ace fighter pilot amidst ace fighter pilots) but could also directly absorb energy in order to bypass that pesky "can't do TK" restriction. Some posters take issue with the Move power having no theoretical limit in terms of what can be affected when the films never showed anyone lifting or manipulating anything bigger than a Silhouette 3 vehicle.

Of course, depending on the author, it wasn't just the Jedi that got the "special snowflake" status in the EU. People other than Timothy Zahn conflated Thrawn into being this tactical genius who could never be outsmarted, when Zahn showed that while Thrawn was a gifted strategist he was far from infallible, and suffered a number of setbacks prior to his death in his debut series. Zahn also had Mara Jade be very capable in a broad number of fields, but not super-exceptional in any particular field, where other authors treated her as a super-spy on par with James Bond.

And the less said about Karen Traviss and her Mandalorian Fettish, the better.

Umm, no? Reflect is balanced by the fact that you have to purchase it, it costs Strain to use, and you have to have a Lightsaber in hand. Whether that Lightsaber is blue, green, transparent, or prismatic. You need an energy sword to counter the energy bolt being fired at you. You can't do that with flesh and bone, no matter how strong your Kung Fu.

Gunslingers can't point their finger and yell "Bang!" Just b/c they've accumulated enough XP to purchase Natural Marksman, doesn't mean they can skip actually wielding a Blaster.

When a player says "I want to do something totally unique, and I want to be extra awesome because of it" that's pretty much the definition of Special Snowflake .

On the other hand, once we get out into the EU, we quickly come across a ton of "special snowflake" Force users... it almost becomes a requirement of being a named character eventually.

Good thing the EU got tossed out on it's ear in regards to it's status as part of the official canon then, isn't it?

At this point, mentioning that it's a bit more nuanced than that is belaboring the obvious, yes?

At any rate, my post was intended with significant irony. "Special snowflake" as a term has drifted off into the same territory as "mary sue"... something that gets slapped on characters as often as a means of easy dismissal as it is anything substantive, too often meaning nothing more terrible than "that character does not suit my tastes".... at least "special snowflake" isn't as laden with unspoken presumptions as "mary sue" too often is.

And you obviously missed the ironic sarcasm in my own response.

But on a more serious note, a large part of the EU problem where Jedi were concerned was a lack of general oversight until many of those characters had already been established, and that many authors had the bad habit of treating the Force as being far more powerful than what we'd seen in the original films, acting as though it were magic and could do anything in contrast the theme of psychic abilities (such as mind reading, hypnotic suggestion, ESP, telekinesis) that the films demonstrated. So you had people like Corran Horn for example, who was largely unmatched at mind tricks but couldn't do TK (on top of his already being a top CorSec officer and an ace fighter pilot amidst ace fighter pilots) but could also directly absorb energy in order to bypass that pesky "can't do TK" restriction. Some posters take issue with the Move power having no theoretical limit in terms of what can be affected when the films never showed anyone lifting or manipulating anything bigger than a Silhouette 3 vehicle.

Of course, depending on the author, it wasn't just the Jedi that got the "special snowflake" status in the EU. People other than Timothy Zahn conflated Thrawn into being this tactical genius who could never be outsmarted, when Zahn showed that while Thrawn was a gifted strategist he was far from infallible, and suffered a number of setbacks prior to his death in his debut series. Zahn also had Mara Jade be very capable in a broad number of fields, but not super-exceptional in any particular field, where other authors treated her as a super-spy on par with James Bond.

And the less said about Karen Traviss and her Mandalorian Fettish, the better.

I noticed the sarcasm ...

I'm not a fan of the Mando fettish that's out there, treating them as heroes or laudible in some way when for most of their history they were reprehensible monsters. They're like the freaking space-Spartans... "but they're a noble warrior culture with a code!" Yeah, let's ask the Cathar just how awesome that code is...

I got sick of the never-ending cycle of "we need this guy to be awesome, so we're going to one-up the epic and kewl!" that happened with Force users... whether it was Genndy Tartokovsky's Mace Windu as Übermensch , or the ever-more-silly depiction in the Force Unleashed series.

But... there's also been an unfair overreaction/backlash against anything but the most basic of powers, with even something moderate like most of what's seen in SWTOR being ranted and railed against in some quarters.

I personally would not allow bare fisted reflect normally but would allow a Destiny point expenditure in the right circumstance. I would allow a modified version of the Talisman of Iron Fists item (FaD pg. 190). An item like this should be acquired as a reward as part of an adventure.

SÄLÃI KÄSI TALISMAN

There have been many warrior traditions that have used the Force throughout the history of the galaxy, of which the Jedi are the most famous. Rather than the lightsabers of the Jedi and the Sith, some Force warrior traditions focus on turning the practitioner’s body into a weapon. This talisman is from one such order, and it channels the Force into the wearer’s body, making it hard as steel.
If the wearer of the Sälãi K äsi T alisman is Force- sensitive, he gains the Cortosis quality, which means that any armor he wears gains the Cortosis quality and his Brawl attacks gain the Cortosis quality. Furthermore, his Brawl attacks gain Pierce X, where X is his current Force rating and the character is considered to be wielding a Lightsaber weapon.

This Talisman has a cost of 10,000® credits.

When a player says "I want to do something totally unique, and I want to be extra awesome because of it" that's pretty much the definition of Special Snowflake .

On the other hand, once we get out into the EU, we quickly come across a ton of "special snowflake" Force users... it almost becomes a requirement of being a named character eventually.

We've found an actual item within the RAW that allows the OP to do what they want (Shield Gauntlet) the mechanical problem is solved without a House Rule.

As for the Snowflake thing. Remember that all of us in this forum and the thousands of others who are playing this game are not all playing in the same campaign at the same table. So even if every one of us wears Shield Gauntlets in our games only one is wearing them in the OP's game. Each PC is special in each game.

Characters should be special. I mean this is Force and Destiny after all, not "the mediocre adventures of garbage scow captain Petey McGann".

I encourage players to give me a cool story, and not be afraid of fun and unique concepts. I want them to be snowflakes!

I have a new player that is going to make a character based on Kilgrave from Jessica Jones. Doesnt carry a gun, and is a master Influencer. The conflict points will be crazy - but it will be a blast at the table. If it adds flavor to have him be able to implant a trigger command by spending a destiny point or something I will usually go for it. Munchkinhood not acceptable of course!

Characters should be special. I mean this is Force and Destiny after all, not "the mediocre adventures of garbage scow captain Petey McGann".

I encourage players to give me a cool story, and not be afraid of fun and unique concepts. I want them to be snowflakes!

I have a new player that is going to make a character based on Kilgrave from Jessica Jones. Doesnt carry a gun, and is a master Influencer. The conflict points will be crazy - but it will be a blast at the table. If it adds flavor to have him be able to implant a trigger command by spending a destiny point or something I will usually go for it. Munchkinhood not acceptable of course!

At some point, the genuine concern about the proliferation in RPGs and fanfic of half-elf/half-dragon/half-demon paladin/technomancer/assassin characters who were the last survivor of a lost secret culture and destined to restore order to the kingdom...

...morphed into an irrational backlash against anything creative or unique.

There's creative, there's unique...

And then there's blatantly twisting the system to gain a game-breaking advantage, especially as the character gains more ranks of the talent and can use them without adhering to the rather thoroughly playtested rules regarding that particular ability.

A starting PC that can use a lightsaber-specific ability without needing a lightsaber, in effect getting a watered-down version of a Force Power that requires a Force Rating of 3, falls pretty firmly into that third category.

The OP did a fairly poor job of really explaining what was going on with their initial post, and it frankly sounded like the idea was to let the monk continue breaking the rules, to which a number of people answered was a bad idea and cited why it was a bad idea. But if the OP honestly feel they've being subjected to a witch-hunt, they can report those people to the moderators and let those folks react as they feel appropriate.

I don't feel witch hunted, I feel like some people are so scared of people making Drizzt Do'urden that they lose sight of what's FUN. I asked in my original post some house rules could be to make what I felt was already somewhat thematic (Vader, Sunrider). Then I get to read this mesmerizing piece of text:

...blatantly twisting the system to gain a game-breaking advantage...

Yes, I am going to continue to let this character use his Cortosis gauntlets to reflect laser bolts. Clearly FFG have decided that not using a lightsaber isn't the most game-crushing unbalancing issue since they introduced another gauntlet that does exactly that . So far the lightsaber wielding character and the one with the repeating blaster have been pumping out twice the damage that the martial artist is. If this was game breaking then I would change it right away (I was forgetting the extra dice in auto fire initially but merrily added it in).

Look, I don't mind the opinions - but maybe I am missing how this is game breaking when FFG have introduced a gauntlet-based mechanic that does the exact same thing. Then again, I am still in shock people were arguing about parrying with gloves that literally exist to parry.

May just be me, but I think you're missing the rarity of Shield Gauntlets, compared to the prevalence of Cortosis armors. Just from the Gear section in the book, it seems that Cortosis is kinda like our aluminum... In that, it seems they've found so much of it and it's just so easy to work with, that we've got Gauntlets, Shields, Staves, Swords, Armor... they're making EVERYTHING out of the stuff. Now before anyone tries to point out that Cortosis anything is listed as Rarity 7;

1) There is no Rarity limit during CharGen (aside from Restricted items), only during play. So fresh characters can start with Cortosis everything if they can afford it.

2) Rarity is -2 on a capital world, which means there are some places you can find Cortosis as easily as some people can find a Blaster Rifle.

Now I don't have Keepers of the Peace in front of me, to know what the stats and such are for the Shield Gauntlet. But the fact that it's listed in a separate book kinda hints at being a little bit more scarce than the more "standard issue" items in the Core books.

If someone wants to use Reflect, they either need a very unique Shield Gauntlet, or they need a Lightsaber. This is what the rules say, plain and simple. And what some people fail to recognize when they think "If I give my players Lightsabers, what's to keep them from running amuck and killing everything?" is that this game relies just as much on storyline balance as it does mechanics. When people see you with a laser sword in hand, they tell all their friends about the Jedi they saw in the marketplace. That story spreads until inevitably being overheard by Imperial spies (think of Ep IV when they're wandering Mos Eisley and some random Anteater guy pulls out a radio). Now the Empire knows there was a Jedi (or someone who looked like one) in that area. They start asking questions, they start gathering footage from security cameras and descriptions from store owners, they start hiring Bounty Hunters... and suddenly your team is on the run without a safe port in sight all b/c they were too brazen in waving their laser sword around.

So it's not just "sometimes the rules let people use other stuff to Reflect" and call it a day. There is the iconic and easily recognized Lightsaber. And then there's the rarely seen Shield Gauntlet. When you start making house rules, especially something that lets your Kung Fu master use store bought Cortosis Gauntlets, or just their bare hands (if you press the Force power metaphor further this is inevitable) then they can use Jedi powers without any risk of advertising themselves as Jedi. Suddenly you've taken away the storyline balance aspect, and validated all those fears of "what happens if my players get something awesome?"

It's worth pointing out ..... the gauntlets FFG introduced weren't cortosis (last I recalled). I suspect there was a balance reason for that.

Yeah I hear you. It reminds me of playing Knights of the Old Republic. "What the hell? We can fight Jedi with regular swords?"

"Oh sure mate, we have this Macguffin substance called Cortosis. Now in a spray bottle!"

Actually I would consider the use of Reflect even with that shield thingie to be a display of Force Sensitivity. When this player was doing some undercover work I made it very clear that reflecting a blaster bolt, even with gauntlets, would be as much cause for alarm as whipping out an energy blade. Obviously one is more subtle, but he still only did it in situations where the other player would have gone "Full Saber".

Ah - Thanks! I guess that answers my question. I haven't picked up that one yet.

Still curious if anyone allows for other kinds of "flavor" though. It sounds like FFG have decided that it's not game breaking to use something else.

I do actually, I allowed one of my PC's who has the force unleash to deflect blasters with that power. It's a trick I stole from battlefront game where palps sorta waves his hands while forming some invisible shield. Looks cool in the game.

It's worth pointing out ..... the gauntlets FFG introduced weren't cortosis (last I recalled). I suspect there was a balance reason for that.

F&D pg 172, Melee Weapons

Cortosis Gauntlets (Refined), Cortosis Shield, Cortosis Staff (Refined), Cortosis Sword

It's like Yogurt and the Schwartz up in here. "Cortosis the T-shirt, Cortosis the Coloring Book, Cortosis the Lunch Box, Cortosis the Breakfast Cereal, Cortosis the Flame Thrower!!!"

Yeah I hear you. It reminds me of playing Knights of the Old Republic. "What the hell? We can fight Jedi with regular swords?"

"Oh sure mate, we have this Macguffin substance called Cortosis. Now in a spray bottle!"

Actually I would consider the use of Reflect even with that shield thingie to be a display of Force Sensitivity. When this player was doing some undercover work I made it very clear that reflecting a blaster bolt, even with gauntlets, would be as much cause for alarm as whipping out an energy blade. Obviously one is more subtle, but he still only did it in situations where the other player would have gone "Full Saber".

I think part of what bugs me, is that Cortosis Gauntlets seem relatively common, and very easy to conceal. It doesn't say that they look any different from gloves you'd wear for any other reason. Whereas a Lightsaber hanging from your belt really can't be mistaken for anything other than a Lightsaber. So while your guy may draw attention swatting Blaster Bolts out of the air, he's just another guy the rest of the time. While someone with a Saber is more likely to draw attention regardless.