Squad is PtL Autothrusters Stealth Soontir, VI ACD FCS Gunner Whisper, and an Epsilon Squadron FO with Comm Relay as a nice, durable blocker. The list without the blocker is just 79 points and I've run it with the novelty 21 point initiative bid before but I figure I could get more mileage out of a blocker.

The Comm Relay Epsilon brings it to 97. I don't normally play Acewing lists so I supose I'd ask. Acewing games, especially ones with Whisper in them seem to be won or lost based almost solely on who wins the initiative bid, so it's worth it to go down as low as you can, but is 97 safe enough or should I drop Comm Relay and go to 94 to guarantee it?

Really depends on your meta but generally 3 is fairly safe. I remember back in the old phantom days some bid's went as high as 5 points though.

That said, the joy of whisper/soontir is your opponent is wrong regardless of thier choice, so whatever your last ship is should find a way to harass vi poe as much as possible.

I'd switch crew on Whisper, upgrade the 3rd ship to Omega Leader and forget the bid.

If you're flying Soontir and Whisper, then initiative is a catch-22 for your opponent. If he gives it to you, Whisper is now shooting and cloaking first. If he takes it to deny that, Soontir now moves last.

Honestly it's a meta call based on who you think you'll be playing against. Looking at some stats I have from top lists in the last year+ (http://xwing.miniranker.com/stats.php?s=2015-01-01&e=2016-01-27), you'd be good 96% of the time.

I'd switch crew on Whisper, upgrade the 3rd ship to Omega Leader and forget the bid.

If you're flying Soontir and Whisper, then initiative is a catch-22 for your opponent. If he gives it to you, Whisper is now shooting and cloaking first. If he takes it to deny that, Soontir now moves last.

And the points you bid are completely useless when VI Poe is on the other side of the table.

I like RecSpec on Whisper over Gunner. She hits easily enough, and I'd like the extra focus for defense

I might have to give this a go.

99 points

PILOTS

Soontir Fel (35)
TIE Interceptor (27), Royal Guard TIE (0), Push the Limit (3), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

“Whisper” (41)
TIE Phantom (32), Agent Kallus (2), Fire-Control System (2), Veteran Instincts (1), Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

“Omega Leader” (23)
TIE/fo Fighter (21), Juke (2)

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Really depends on your meta but generally 3 is fairly safe. I remember back in the old phantom days some bid's went as high as 5 points though.

That said, the joy of whisper/soontir is your opponent is wrong regardless of thier choice, so whatever your last ship is should find a way to harass vi poe as much as possible.

well, I've seen Echo-Whisper builds with insane 20-28 point bids >_<

so 3 is fine...

but frankly when it comes to Initiative Whisper and Fel are at a disagreement.

Fel wants to go LAST, and whisper wants to shoot FIRST

that's a dilemma!

Honestly, it's going to be a worse choice on initiative for you than your opponent if you're running Fel+Whisper. If you don't run into any other PS9 ships you'll be fine.

But if you do, you're either going to lose "Whisper" protecting herself with ACD or Fel being able to react in activation phase.

Honestly, I like DR4CO's take on it: if you're going to run those two together, then don't bother with a bid of any kind and make your third ship the best you can. Heck, I'll even second his nomination of "Omega Leader".

Really depends on your meta but generally 3 is fairly safe. I remember back in the old phantom days some bid's went as high as 5 points though.

That said, the joy of whisper/soontir is your opponent is wrong regardless of thier choice, so whatever your last ship is should find a way to harass vi poe as much as possible.

well, I've seen Echo-Whisper builds with insane 20-28 point bids >_<

so 3 is fine...

but frankly when it comes to Initiative Whisper and Fel are at a disagreement.

Fel wants to go LAST, and whisper wants to shoot FIRST

that's a dilemma!

The 20-something builds were pre-nerf, though. Phantoms are still potent, bit the don't wipe the floor like they used to.

Your right that the list has a degree of anti-synergy to it; but the ships in question are good enough that you probably win out either way.

Pick a blocker to help deal with PS10 ships, more than worrying about your bid.

I might have to give this a go.

99 points

PILOTS

Soontir Fel (35)

TIE Interceptor (27), Royal Guard TIE (0), Push the Limit (3), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

“Whisper” (41)

TIE Phantom (32), Agent Kallus (2), Fire-Control System (2), Veteran Instincts (1), Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

“Omega Leader” (23)

TIE/fo Fighter (21), Juke (2)

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In order to avoid the PS 9 initiative dilemma that comes with VI Whisper and Soontir, what about a VI Vader with ATC, Prockets, and Engines and your typical 44 point whisper? Then you just drop the comm relay from the epsilon and you're back at 97.

Really depends on your meta but generally 3 is fairly safe. I remember back in the old phantom days some bid's went as high as 5 points though.

That said, the joy of whisper/soontir is your opponent is wrong regardless of thier choice, so whatever your last ship is should find a way to harass vi poe as much as possible.

well, I've seen Echo-Whisper builds with insane 20-28 point bids >_<

so 3 is fine...

but frankly when it comes to Initiative Whisper and Fel are at a disagreement.

Fel wants to go LAST, and whisper wants to shoot FIRST

that's a dilemma!

The 20-something builds were pre-nerf, though. Phantoms are still potent, bit the don't wipe the floor like they used to.

Your right that the list has a degree of anti-synergy to it; but the ships in question are good enough that you probably win out either way.

Pick a blocker to help deal with PS10 ships, more than worrying about your bid.

pre-nerf phantoms were the menace of ages, and the ridiculous PS bids only proved that

Well, the best blocker I've seen is Carnor "NOT TODAY" jax, who doesn't need to block to ruin the day xD

but he won't fit, I'm afraid.

Really depends on your meta but generally 3 is fairly safe. I remember back in the old phantom days some bid's went as high as 5 points though.

That said, the joy of whisper/soontir is your opponent is wrong regardless of thier choice, so whatever your last ship is should find a way to harass vi poe as much as possible.

well, I've seen Echo-Whisper builds with insane 20-28 point bids >_<

so 3 is fine...

but frankly when it comes to Initiative Whisper and Fel are at a disagreement.

Fel wants to go LAST, and whisper wants to shoot FIRST

that's a dilemma!

The 20-something builds were pre-nerf, though. Phantoms are still potent, bit the don't wipe the floor like they used to.

Your right that the list has a degree of anti-synergy to it; but the ships in question are good enough that you probably win out either way.

Pick a blocker to help deal with PS10 ships, more than worrying about your bid.

pre-nerf phantoms were the menace of ages, and the ridiculous PS bids only proved that

Well, the best blocker I've seen is Carnor "NOT TODAY" jax, who doesn't need to block to ruin the day xD

but he won't fit, I'm afraid.

If memory serves, a guy went to the US Nationals this year with Soontir Fel.

And only Soontir Fel.

He won a few games.

Really depends on your meta but generally 3 is fairly safe. I remember back in the old phantom days some bid's went as high as 5 points though.

That said, the joy of whisper/soontir is your opponent is wrong regardless of thier choice, so whatever your last ship is should find a way to harass vi poe as much as possible.

well, I've seen Echo-Whisper builds with insane 20-28 point bids >_<

so 3 is fine...

but frankly when it comes to Initiative Whisper and Fel are at a disagreement.

Fel wants to go LAST, and whisper wants to shoot FIRST

that's a dilemma!

The 20-something builds were pre-nerf, though. Phantoms are still potent, bit the don't wipe the floor like they used to.

Your right that the list has a degree of anti-synergy to it; but the ships in question are good enough that you probably win out either way.

Pick a blocker to help deal with PS10 ships, more than worrying about your bid.

pre-nerf phantoms were the menace of ages, and the ridiculous PS bids only proved that

Well, the best blocker I've seen is Carnor "NOT TODAY" jax, who doesn't need to block to ruin the day xD

but he won't fit, I'm afraid.

If memory serves, a guy went to the US Nationals this year with Soontir Fel.

And only Soontir Fel.

He won a few games.

He's a pretty cool guy, eh killz rebelz and doesn't afraid of anything?

Well, the Doublephantom list did ANNIHILATE everything except for VI han and Rebel captive Chiraneau

D:

Wait. who was this solo soontir guy. I wanna see his games. Funny!

I prefer Rebel Captive on my Phantom

Soontir Fel (27)
Push the Limit (3)
Stealth Device (3)
Autothrusters (2)
Royal Guard TIE (0)

"Whisper" (32)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Rebel Captive (3)
Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Seismic Charges (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

With whisper/fel there is no reason to use any bid, since fel wants to go last and whisper wants to go first, so no matter what your opponent choose it will favour one of them and hinder the other

I'd feel safe at 100....

Soontir wants to move last.
Whisper wants to shoot first.

win/lose without initiative
lose/win with initiative

You're good either way.

Screw Soontir, Jax is the man, the king of blocks, the living zone of death. And, he also protects your Phantom from focused attacks - which is handy - given that you will be shot at while uncloaked 90% of the time anyway.

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Galactic%20Empire&d=v3!s!79:27,36,142:-1:9:;62:27:5:15:M.6;187:152,153:-1:-1:&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron

I might have to give this a go.

99 points

PILOTS

Soontir Fel (35)

TIE Interceptor (27), Royal Guard TIE (0), Push the Limit (3), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

“Whisper” (41)

TIE Phantom (32), Agent Kallus (2), Fire-Control System (2), Veteran Instincts (1), Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

“Omega Leader” (23)

TIE/fo Fighter (21), Juke (2)

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Yep. But drop Kallus and you can slip Comm Relay on OL, which really hurts the likes of VI Poe; having lock, juke and focus against him means he absolutely has to stay out of your arc which can screw up his movement relative to everyone else. It also hurts big-mods PWTs, so two things that really threaten high-init arc-dodgers. Or put in Epsilon Leader to clear stress from Soonts so you don't have to worry about stressors and you can potentially (!) use non-green manoeuvres with him.

I just wish there was room to get Comm Relay AND Stealth Device on OL.

I'm thinking of running that very list for a tourney this weekend.

Would Vader be a better partner to Whisper than Soontir? That way Vader can scare/hunt Poe and opposing Soontirs.

Then again, not caring sbout which way Initiative goes is not to bad, either...

Would Vader be a better partner to Whisper than Soontir? That way Vader can scare/hunt Poe and opposing Soontirs.

Then again, not caring sbout which way Initiative goes is not to bad, either...

Pretty much of a muchness really I think - but Vader requires a lot more expensive components

I disagree. I play cheap-vader all the time - he's a great ship at 34, 33 or 31pts. He plays more tanky, as he can't burn both actions on post-maneuver movement. I play him as a mobile platform - you predict rather than react, and BR gives you a little insurance if he's having a bad day with the whole force thing.

Even if he's left one on one vs poe, for example, without PS superiority (ie no VI), then he's still a real tough nut to crack, because predator reroll often means he gets to focus/evade turtle every round, and take his shots when he can. 1 on 1, I prefer BR over boost anyway, as it allows for more defensive & blocking options. Boost is great for those few rounds where you're re-engaging, to being the enemy into arc, but otherwise BR wins.

Main drawback is vs TLTs. Man, that's the matchup where Vader misses EU. Otherwise, I'd say VI/ATC Vader is right up there with the Baron as one of the Emprie's most glaringly underpriced ships.

I disagree. I play cheap-vader all the time - he's a great ship at 34, 33 or 31pts. He plays more tanky, as he can't burn both actions on post-maneuver movement. I play him as a mobile platform - you predict rather than react, and BR gives you a little insurance if he's having a bad day with the whole force thing.

Even if he's left one on one vs poe, for example, without PS superiority (ie no VI), then he's still a real tough nut to crack, because predator reroll often means he gets to focus/evade turtle every round, and take his shots when he can. 1 on 1, I prefer BR over boost anyway, as it allows for more defensive & blocking options. Boost is great for those few rounds where you're re-engaging, to being the enemy into arc, but otherwise BR wins.

Main drawback is vs TLTs. Man, that's the matchup where Vader misses EU. Otherwise, I'd say VI/ATC Vader is right up there with the Baron as one of the Emprie's most glaringly underpriced ships.

This comment made me think of something terrifying.

Standard Super Soontir: 35. VI EU ATC Vader: 35. Fully Tooled Stealth Device OL: 29. 99 points. Pain.

Or even Juke Vader for 100, but I think Going First would be more valuable, especially with a point of init bid.

It's got something to take on most lists, and something that will be a royal pain to kill for most lists.

Shame I don't have an Advanced. Or Soontir. Or the Raider.

I'm probably borrowing Soonts for this weekend's tourney though to play the Whisper variant.