Basically, I was wondering which characters could be considered Light Side Paragons by FFG's RPG standards.

Best guess? Anyone who was able to transform into a force ghost upon their death and probably most anyone who sat on the Council.

Well since you have to be a Paragon to become a Force Ghost; Qui-Gon, Obi-Won, and Yoda. After that, it's any bodies guess.

Of note, Anakin was definitely not a Paragon but got immortal ghost status. I'd say it has to do with him being the Force's baby Jesus. He gets "special" rules applied to him.

Of note, Anakin was definitely not a Paragon but got immortal ghost status. I'd say it has to do with him being the Force's baby Jesus. He gets "special" rules applied to him.

Yeah, Anakin is a special snowflake / Mary-Sue if there ever was one.

Don't conflate the Chosen One and the Mary Sue tropes. Please, just don't.

Anyway, depends on what you're asking about regards to paragons. Simply speaking, one you hit the paragon threshold (71 or better), you are considered a paragon even if you drop below 71, and that only changes if you hit the dark side user threshold of 29 or lower. You gain special benefits if you hit and maintain 80 and 90 morality. So, if you become a paragon, you remain a paragon only until you become a dark side user, and vice versa.

So if you're asking for characters that are just paragons, I would venture to say a good portion of the Jedi we see in the prequels and The Clone Wars. If you're talking the high morality paragons, probably at least Luke at the very end of RotJ. I would also say Luminara Unduli and Plo Koon over the course of TCW, possibly Kit Fisto.

I would imagine anyone who was on the Jedi Council. I know most of them didn't turn into a ghost but you have to consider that Qui Gon was basically the first and most of them died before Yoda and Obi Wan figured it out.

Arguably I'd say any distinctively light side aligned force user is a "light side paragon."

I just don't see it providing so much of a bonus to really "mean" anything. Its just seems to be a general designation of the light/dark side status of the user. It grows too quickly to represent any sort of long term status.

I'd say by the end of TCW, even the Council had lost their paragon status. Maybe Plo kept his, but not Ki-Adi. The war broke their morality, but they retained their arrogance.

I didn't really see anything in the Clone Wars that would have affected their morality. More so since Lucas had them fighting droids which robs the entire conflict of any true moral relevance.

I didn't really see anything in the Clone Wars that would have affected their morality. More so since Lucas had them fighting droids which robs the entire conflict of any true moral relevance.

Well, probably just the fact that they resorted to violence to solve the general dilemma posed by the Separatists and rarely (if ever) made any attempts to resolve the wars without violence probably caused them to slip. If anything, the fact their main opponents on the field may have made things worse for them, as they were more likely to default to violence, often at the expense of the Clone Troopers they were commanding. Try as hard as they might, there's a very slim chance that any Jedi General is going to be able to ensure there are zero casualties or injuries on their side, and as the war wore on, it's possible there were Jedi Generals that came to view the Clone Troopers as a resource that could be renewed via more batches of fresh troops. Which may very well have been a part of what Palpatine intended with the whole gambit in the first place.

you are considered a paragon even if you drop below 71, and that only changes if you hit the dark side user threshold of 29 or lower.

I just checked the book, page 53, and tha's not the case. Once your Morality drops to 70 or less you are no longer a LS Paragon.

I didn't really see anything in the Clone Wars that would have affected their morality. More so since Lucas had them fighting droids which robs the entire conflict of any true moral relevance.

Well, probably just the fact that they resorted to violence to solve the general dilemma posed by the Separatists and rarely (if ever) made any attempts to resolve the wars without violence probably caused them to slip. If anything, the fact their main opponents on the field may have made things worse for them, as they were more likely to default to violence, often at the expense of the Clone Troopers they were commanding. Try as hard as they might, there's a very slim chance that any Jedi General is going to be able to ensure there are zero casualties or injuries on their side, and as the war wore on, it's possible there were Jedi Generals that came to view the Clone Troopers as a resource that could be renewed via more batches of fresh troops. Which may very well have been a part of what Palpatine intended with the whole gambit in the first place.

They lacked the overall authority to negotiate a peace (the Senate voted for war afterall) so once the war was on I can't really fault them for resorting to violence. And it's not like causalities alone would be enough to cause them to slip in morality. While I won't deny that some Jedi Generals likely would view the clones as an expendable resource, I was specifically speaking of the Council in my statements and none of them were shown to be that callous.

"it is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible to admit it."

- Kriea, KOTOR2

I think that sums up the Jedi Order's situation during the Clone Wars. While the Senate may have voted for war, there was nothing saying the Jedi Order was fully obligated to become the leaders of said army. Sure, they might have lost a lot of the backing of the (increasingly) corrupt Senate, but they could have taken the moral high ground. And I'm not saying they went full dark side (pretty obvious to anyone with eyeballs and a working brain that they didn't all fall to the dark side), but they certainly weren't the paragons of morality that they painted themselves as, and a large part of what doomed them is they didn't stop to question or think about the decision to become war leaders until it was too late. That they also seemed more concerned with the letter and exact wording of the Code as opposed to Qui-Gon's approach of going by the spirit of the Code probably didn't help them as much as they thought it did.

Over in Legends as a part of the Living Force campaign, any Jedi (PC or NPC) that objected to the war and refused to accept a commission in the GAR was required to fork over their lightsaber to the Jedi Council, though they were still allowed to identify themselves as Jedi and members of the Jedi Order Of course, there wasn't much from stopping those Jedi from just building another lightsaber (this was long before TCW, so the details regarding Ilum were sparse at best), but they had to do it on the down-low.

But as with all things morality, a lot of it can be subject to the views of the beholder. And since Star Wars authors aren't beholden to a measly set of RPG rules, there's never really going to be a hard answer.

you are considered a paragon even if you drop below 71, and that only changes if you hit the dark side user threshold of 29 or lower.

I just checked the book, page 53, and tha's not the case. Once your Morality drops to 70 or less you are no longer a LS Paragon.

Ah. It's dark side user you can't get out of easy. My bad.

I didn't really see anything in the Clone Wars that would have affected their morality. More so since Lucas had them fighting droids which robs the entire conflict of any true moral relevance.

By the end of the show they're hiding huge revelations from the general public, and thinking they can get away with it, so it's not just about "fighting droids". Ki-Adi's arrogance concerning the nature of the Force and how he interprets Yoda's turmoil are telling. It's more explicit in the Dark Disciple book, which was based on a multi-episode TCW arc that never got completed, but they actually go for a plan to assassinate Dooku. Only Yoda and Obi-wan are in doubt by then.

I think that sums up the Jedi Order's situation during the Clone Wars. While the Senate may have voted for war, there was nothing saying the Jedi Order was fully obligated to become the leaders of said army. Sure, they might have lost a lot of the backing of the (increasingly) corrupt Senate, but they could have taken the moral high ground. And I'm not saying they went full dark side (pretty obvious to anyone with eyeballs and a working brain that they didn't all fall to the dark side), but they certainly weren't the paragons of morality that they painted themselves as, and a large part of what doomed them is they didn't stop to question or think about the decision to become war leaders until it was too late. That they also seemed more concerned with the letter and exact wording of the Code as opposed to Qui-Gon's approach of going by the spirit of the Code probably didn't help them as much as they thought it did.

I don't really see them as having much of a choice. To not lead the army would have likely amounted to having to leave the Republic as an entity. But considering that they were fighting droids I don't think there was much in the way of moral qualms being created by agreeing to lead the Republic army. Maybe I just don't see much moral high ground on the issue when the enemy is a droid army. Lucas, in my opinion, really robbed the story of a good chance to explore war. Likely because it was easier to sell toys if the Jedi were heroically fighting robots.

By the end of the show they're hiding huge revelations from the general public, and thinking they can get away with it, so it's not just about "fighting droids". Ki-Adi's arrogance concerning the nature of the Force and how he interprets Yoda's turmoil are telling. It's more explicit in the Dark Disciple book, which was based on a multi-episode TCW arc that never got completed, but they actually go for a plan to assassinate Dooku. Only Yoda and Obi-wan are in doubt by then.

I don't see being arrogant and being a lightside paragon as mutually exclusive. I'm not going to comment on the Dark Disciple book since I haven't read it.

I think that sums up the Jedi Order's situation during the Clone Wars. While the Senate may have voted for war, there was nothing saying the Jedi Order was fully obligated to become the leaders of said army. Sure, they might have lost a lot of the backing of the (increasingly) corrupt Senate, but they could have taken the moral high ground. And I'm not saying they went full dark side (pretty obvious to anyone with eyeballs and a working brain that they didn't all fall to the dark side), but they certainly weren't the paragons of morality that they painted themselves as, and a large part of what doomed them is they didn't stop to question or think about the decision to become war leaders until it was too late. That they also seemed more concerned with the letter and exact wording of the Code as opposed to Qui-Gon's approach of going by the spirit of the Code probably didn't help them as much as they thought it did.

Well I think you're forgetting a major part of the issue. The Jedi knew that Dooku was a Sith, and that he had a master somewhere. He said both several times in TCW. I think the Jedi made a lot of mistakes during TCW. They were by no means the incorruptible peacekeepers they once were. They definitely took some Conflict hits, but they knew the Sith weren't interested in peace.

The Jedi did still attempt peace on a number of occasions. They attempted several peace negotiations, but Dooku always found a way to sabotage them. Also, the Jedi almost always requested Dooku, Ventress, Grievous, etc surrender before they engaged. Very few, if any, of the Jedi would have killed a surrendering enemy even if it was Dooku himself.

Basically, I was wondering which characters could be considered Light Side Paragons by FFG's RPG standards.

Obi-Wan is. He's the "picture boy" of how Jedi should be. And Yoda.

Basically, I was wondering which characters could be considered Light Side Paragons by FFG's RPG standards.

Obi-Wan is. He's the "picture boy" of how Jedi should be. And Yoda.

Seconded. Luke, too, though how far into Paragon he got is debatable. He at least got past 71.

I always assumed that most Jedi-types were paragons at least at some point. But then I tend to consider Paragon status to be more the basic "role-model" definition, so to me 80-90% of those that got knighted were paragons at some point in their career.

Basically, I was wondering which characters could be considered Light Side Paragons by FFG's RPG standards.

Obi-Wan is. He's the "picture boy" of how Jedi should be. And Yoda.

Seconded. Luke, too, though how far into Paragon he got is debatable. He at least got past 71.

Well, at least in the new canon we really haven't seen enough of Luke post-RotJ to really see where he falls. He was generally a good boy through ANH and ESB, so he probably didn't earn much (if any) Conflict, so a case could be made that he'd made it past 70 at the very least. RotJ he got a bit darker, or at least was more willing to use those dark side pips, but at the end he probably still ended in the low end of LS Paragon at the least.

Legends-wise... boy was all over the map depending on who the author was.

They were by no means the incorruptible peacekeepers they once were.

I question if they were ever really incorruptible. I suspect there was a lot of looking through rose colored glasses when it came to the Jedi order's past. At best, they probably were just better at catching the bad eggs before they went too far. Lesser numbers and too many distractions probably led to the order's downfall.

Going by Legends, the Jedi Order started going into a decline after the Battle of Ruusan and the wake of the Ruusan Reformations that largely established the Order as we saw it in the prequels. They believed they had finally and truly one the battle against the Sith, removing that threat from the galaxy forever, and ultimately became victims of their own success, especially as they became more and more dependent upon the Senate for support.

In the RotS novelization, Yoda has something of a revelation during his fight with Sidious that the Jedi Order had stagnated, and thus were incapable of fighting the Sith, and that he was a major factor in the Order's stagnation by enforcing the status quo for so many centuries. Thus his feeling that he needed to go into exile, to re-examine the choices he made and try to find a new way. That he didn't pass on much of the Jedi Code other than the core tenets to Luke says quite a bit about how he came to feel about much of the dogma that he'd enforced (willingly or not) and where that state of affairs lead both the Jedi Order and the galaxy.

Speaking of Sidious and the Jedi, and musings of Jedi obtuseness...

Is it ever explicitly explained how someone who amounted to a "dark side nexus" managed to so thoroughly hide his nature for years while right under the nose of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy?

Were the Jedi really that confident and secure and "up their own exhaust pipes" at that point?

Or was there some "technique" that Sidious was using? And if so, could another Force user employ that same technique to hide from Sidious?

I question if they were ever really incorruptible. I suspect there was a lot of looking through rose colored glasses when it came to the Jedi order's past. At best, they probably were just better at catching the bad eggs before they went too far. Lesser numbers and too many distractions probably led to the order's downfall.

I was speaking of the matter of perception. To most of the universe, Jedi prior to the clone wars were wise, powerful, and nearly un-killable. They were viewed with a sense of awe and wonder, or terrible dread if you were doing something illegal! The Clone Wars changed a lot of perceptions though. Jedi died in serious numbers vs battle droids. A former Jedi Master, Dooku, was leading the Separtists. The Jedi's shiny badge of perception was seriously tarnished during the war.

Speaking of Sidious and the Jedi, and musings of Jedi obtuseness...

Is it ever explicitly explained how someone who amounted to a "dark side nexus" managed to so thoroughly hide his nature for years while right under the nose of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy?

Were the Jedi really that confident and secure and "up their own exhaust pipes" at that point?

Or was there some "technique" that Sidious was using? And if so, could another Force user employ that same technique to hide from Sidious?

In game terms, the Shadow specialization allows force users to hide their powers from other force users. If Sidious was as smart as we know he is, he simply suppressed his power so others couldn't sense it passively, and was extra careful not to use his abilities where others might see him.