Oh don't worry, I'm the one guy. I guess that makes you the other one guy.

Edit: browser not refreshing correclty

All fixed then. Yay!

yeah well, current speed is indeed the crux of the problem.

I can play the quote game too : "Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed."

Engine techs current speed is 1, as per the FAQ. Unless you want to keep arguing that it's not a maneuver.

Again, ramming is a non-issue, because you setup the maneuver tool at your current speed (as shown on dial, or speed 1 if you do an engine tech speed 1 maneuver for a double ram and your speed dial is on 11), then try to resolve it and never change the maneuver tool as you temporarily reduce speed to land in a possible position, before the speed is back to shown as dial after the maneuver is resolved.

yeah well, current speed is indeed the crux of the problem.

I can play the quote game too : "Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed."

Engine techs current speed is 1, as per the FAQ. Unless you want to keep arguing that it's not a maneuver.

Again, ramming is a non-issue, because you setup the maneuver tool at your current speed (as shown on dial, or speed 1 if you do an engine tech speed 1 maneuver for a double ram and your speed dial is on 11), then try to resolve it and never change the maneuver tool as you temporarily reduce speed to land in a possible position, before the speed is back to shown as dial after the maneuver is resolved.

What if the reduction in speed due to ramming is what is creating the illegal game state, though? Say you have a Gladiator moving at speed 3, with the crit effect, your maneuverability is -1-. So you perform a maneuver with one yaw click at the speed 2 mark. You overlap a ship, and are forced to decrease your speed by one - but uh oh, now your current speed is 2, and you have 1 click at that joint, even though it should be reduced by the critical.

Obviously you have to place your ship at that location, but equally obviously you cannot place your ship in that location because it's an illegal maneuver.

That's the illegal game state.

That's a very valid point about the "current speed" issue.

However, I guess you could say the course is committed as the maneuver tool is notched, and it doesn't change if the current speed has to be adjusted down while being resolved : "A ship is not committed to a course until the guides of the maneuver tool are inserted into the ship’s base."

Can we please go read the Section on Speed again. A ships "current speed" is determined by the speed dial.

yeah well, current speed is indeed the crux of the problem.

I can play the quote game too : "Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed."

Engine techs current speed is 1, as per the FAQ. Unless you want to keep arguing that it's not a maneuver.

Again, ramming is a non-issue, because you setup the maneuver tool at your current speed (as shown on dial, or speed 1 if you do an engine tech speed 1 maneuver for a double ram and your speed dial is on 11), then try to resolve it and never change the maneuver tool as you temporarily reduce speed to land in a possible position, before the speed is back to shown as dial after the maneuver is resolved.

What if the reduction in speed due to ramming is what is creating the illegal game state, though? Say you have a Gladiator moving at speed 3, with the crit effect, your maneuverability is -1-. So you perform a maneuver with one yaw click at the speed 2 mark. You overlap a ship, and are forced to decrease your speed by one - but uh oh, now your current speed is 2, and you have 1 click at that joint, even though it should be reduced by the critical.

Obviously you have to place your ship at that location, but equally obviously you cannot place your ship in that location because it's an illegal maneuver.

That's the illegal game state.

I could have sworn I said that earlier. . . Then again you did portray it better.

You definitely mentioned the illegal game state, which is what inspired my post. Not sure if you spelled out why or not, so I figured I would.

Can we please go read the Section on Speed again. A ships "current speed" is determined by the speed dial.

Yes, you did quote one place that indicates that "Current speed = number on speed dial". But if you actually read what Gowtah quoted, there is another part of the rules (regarding maneuvering) which says that when you do a maneuver, you "... click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. " Engine Techs specifically allows you to do a additional maneuver. Now, if "Current speed = number on speed dial", then you couldn't actually make any clicks at all on your extra maneuver if you speed dial is set on 3. There is still the question whether "Current speed = speed dial", or "Current speed = Speed of your maneuver" is true. Not saying that this is proof of either way, just saying that there are still two ways to look at it according to the rules. But I guess I am saying that if one interprets Current speed as Speed dial, then Engine Techs is astoundingly worse all of a sudden, regardless of face-up damage card.

DerlErlkonig: Good point. Although I personally think that since the "course is committed" (as per the rules), it wouldn't create a problem (although I can't back that up with anything).

I did put this into an email to FFG, I'll post back if I get a response.

Please read Speed Chart in the rules reference guide. It goes over what a speed 1 maneuver is. It is in page 11.

Here I will help.

Speed Chart

Each ship has a speed chart on its ship card which indicates how far each joint can be clicked away from the center (straight) position. Each column on the chart corresponds to a specifc speed as indicated by a number at the bottom of that column. Each box in a column represents a joint on the maneuver tool and the yaw value within each box indicates how many times its corresponding joint can be clicked in either direction (left or right) when moving at that column’s speed.

Now knowing this, your entire comment of;

Engine Techs specifically allows you to do a additional maneuver. Now, if "Current speed = number on speed dial", then you couldn't actually make any clicks at all on your extra maneuver if you speed dial is set on 3.

Is absolutely false. Same with you still going on about

There is still the question whether "Current speed = speed dial", or "Current speed = Speed of your maneuver" is true

The above quote is wrong because the Speed rule tells you what Current Speed means. There is no ambiguity there.

Lyraeus:

I don't understand what you did not understand in my post. It might be my non-English-nativeness that keeps getting in my way of explaining things. The main problem here is that the phrase "Current speed" occurs in four places in the RRG (see below*). None of them are bolded or treated like a definition of a keyword (unlike the timing keywords, or modify dice keywords, for example).

Now, you are saying that the following is " Absolutely false ":

Engine Techs specifically allows you to do a additional maneuver. Now, if "Current speed = number on speed dial", then you couldn't actually make any clicks at all on your extra maneuver if you speed dial is set on 3.

What is "Absolutely false" about this? Engine Techs specifically allows you to do a additional maneuver, you can't argue with that (or if you do, this is really a pointless discussion). Now, if you actually read the rules on how you execute a maneuver (quoted in previous posts by both me and Gowtah, and below in this post), you are allowed to "click" the maneuver tool an as many times as the chart corresponding with your Current speed allows you to. Now, if " Current speed = Speed dial ", then this is problematic, since Engine Techs only allow you to travel 1 step forward on the maneuver dial, but if your Speed dial is at 3, you would not be able to "click" (since at Speed 3, the yaw-value for speed 1 is - (zero) at Speed 3 ). This is because Engine Tech is a maneuver, and the rules for maneuver specifically tells you to "click" according to your current speed .

Now, your explanation of what "a speed 1 maneuver is" could have solved things, but the problem is, once again, if you read the rules on maneuvering, it specifically tells you to "click" according to the chart corresponding with your Current speed . This perhaps makes it even more ambiguous, which is basically what we are trying to say here.

I could understand you if you use the "Current speed = Speed dial" -definition AND determined that the amount of possibles "clicks" on the maneuver from Engine Techs is affected by your speed dial, but I don't understand how one could argue that Current speed = Speed dial , but then not use that rule when using the extra maneuver from Engine Techs. Therefore, there is indeed an ambiguity, even though I am personally getting more and more convinced that "Current speed = Speed of your maneuver" .

Do people understand what I am trying to say here? I would appreciate if someone else could just confirm that my point is understood, since I have the feeling that Lyraues is missing my point entirely (quite possible due to language-barrier).

*

The four places Current speed occurs:

" Execute Maneuver: Move the ship at its current speed " - from Ship activation (p. 11)

" Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed . " - Ship movement (p. 11)

" A ship’s speed determines how far it must move each activation; the ship’s current speed is tracked on its speed dial " - from Speed (p. 11)

" Execute Maneuver: Move the ship at the ship’s current speed . " - from Quick reference (last page)

You are now being foolish. Please follow the Golden rule. The card overwrites the rules. As such Engine Techs tells you EXACTLY what to do. A Speed 1 maneuver. The Speed Chart tells you exactly what constitutes a Speed 1 maneuver.

What is the issue here?! I mean really. This is super simple.

Here let's quote the Golden Rule

The Golden Rules

This Rules Reference booklet is the defnitive source of rules information for Star Wars: Armada. If something in this booklet contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference booklet is correct.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

If a card effect uses the word “cannot,” that effect is absolute.

By your logic, Gunnery Teams does not work either. Nor does a ton of other upgrade cards that modify the rules, because that is what most upgrade cards do in Armada. They modify the rules.

I am not attacking you on this, I am actually confused why this argument is going on. To me it is all simple but that is because I have the mind set that all upgrade cards will modify the rules I'm some way shape or form.

You are now being foolish. Please follow the Golden rule. The card overwrites the rules. As such Engine Techs tells you EXACTLY what to do. A Speed 1 maneuver. The Speed Chart tells you exactly what constitutes a Speed 1 maneuver.

This is actually quite hilarious, since "this is foolish" (not you, this) have pretty much been my state of mind too. Also, please feel free to ignore my actual question. Also also, "You are now being foolish." post-ceded with "I am not attacking you" is just great.

I'll try one more time:

Engine Techs tells me EXACTLY do to a maneuver at Speed 1 (nothing more than that). The "golden rule" here is that the card gives me a maneuver I could not have done otherwise (since you are only allowed to do one). So I look at the rules for maneuvering. It tells me to use the yaw-value according to my Current speed . Therefore, either Current speed = speed dial and Engine techs is "nerfed", or Current speed = Speed of manevuer and all is well.

Unless something else comes up, I feel like I've made myself as clear as I can. Several of us have emailed FFG, so hopefully they will get in touch soon. Fly safe!

I am done. I now understand why Drasnighta gets fed up! You are ignoring EVERYTHING I have stated and are not following the progression.

Try this, lay out everything in order of how they occur step by step. Let's see where the breakdown is ok

I'll just drop the popcorn and mention that Drasnighta, in this very thread, acknowlegded there's something fishy about the current speed = dial dogma that leads to the original issue of thrust control malfunction being resolved in a nonsensical manner when it comes to engine techs maneuvers.

So your posture is moot, and brings nothing to the debate.

As you just happily wrote on the precedent page, Engine techs supersedes the current speed = dial rule. Something something golden rule something something mind set.

It even had to be FAQ'd, and it's nothing crazy to postulate that this might have been added because people were arguing that you had to do that speed 1 maneuver according to the current speed = dial = speed chart column rule.

How then can you consider that Thrust control malfunction applies to the current speed = dial for the purpose of resolving this very special speed 1 maneuver? You resolve the maneuver by picking a column for speed, then another column for speed?

What is the issue here?! I mean really. This is super simple.

He had missed the Speed entry in the RRG. It happens.

Engine Techs does not supercede the Speed Dial which is your Current Speed.

So let's go step by step:

Step 1: Determine Course (you spend the Nav ____ here)

Step 2: Move Step (you move the ship here to where the speed dial is set which is the current speed)

Step 3: Decide to use Engine Techs

Step 4: Repeat Step 1 but you only use your Speed 1 part of the speed chart (current speed does not change)

Step 5: Move speed 1 (whatever it is on your chart) your current speed is whatever it is on your dial

That is how Engine Techs works

Lyraeus:

I don't understand what you did not understand in my post. It might be my non-English-nativeness that keeps getting in my way of explaining things. The main problem here is that the phrase "Current speed" occurs in four places in the RRG (see below*). None of them are bolded or treated like a definition of a keyword (unlike the timing keywords, or modify dice keywords, for example).

Now, you are saying that the following is " Absolutely false ":

Engine Techs specifically allows you to do a additional maneuver. Now, if "Current speed = number on speed dial", then you couldn't actually make any clicks at all on your extra maneuver if you speed dial is set on 3.

What is "Absolutely false" about this? Engine Techs specifically allows you to do a additional maneuver, you can't argue with that (or if you do, this is really a pointless discussion). Now, if you actually read the rules on how you execute a maneuver (quoted in previous posts by both me and Gowtah, and below in this post), you are allowed to "click" the maneuver tool an as many times as the chart corresponding with your Current speed allows you to. Now, if " Current speed = Speed dial ", then this is problematic, since Engine Techs only allow you to travel 1 step forward on the maneuver dial, but if your Speed dial is at 3, you would not be able to "click" (since at Speed 3, the yaw-value for speed 1 is - (zero) at Speed 3 ). This is because Engine Tech is a maneuver, and the rules for maneuver specifically tells you to "click" according to your current speed .

Now, your explanation of what "a speed 1 maneuver is" could have solved things, but the problem is, once again, if you read the rules on maneuvering, it specifically tells you to "click" according to the chart corresponding with your Current speed . This perhaps makes it even more ambiguous, which is basically what we are trying to say here.

I could understand you if you use the "Current speed = Speed dial" -definition AND determined that the amount of possibles "clicks" on the maneuver from Engine Techs is affected by your speed dial, but I don't understand how one could argue that Current speed = Speed dial , but then not use that rule when using the extra maneuver from Engine Techs. Therefore, there is indeed an ambiguity, even though I am personally getting more and more convinced that "Current speed = Speed of your maneuver" .

Do people understand what I am trying to say here? I would appreciate if someone else could just confirm that my point is understood, since I have the feeling that Lyraues is missing my point entirely (quite possible due to language-barrier).

*

The four places Current speed occurs:

" Execute Maneuver: Move the ship at its current speed " - from Ship activation (p. 11)

" Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed . " - Ship movement (p. 11)

" A ship’s speed determines how far it must move each activation; the ship’s current speed is tracked on its speed dial " - from Speed (p. 11)

" Execute Maneuver: Move the ship at the ship’s current speed . " - from Quick reference (last page)

I just want to confirm that I understand exactly what you are saying here and it makes sense.

I don't know how to interpret the rules problem overall so I'm not picking a side either way as I see both arguments and in the end feel this would be something FFG would probably need to rule on.

Engine Techs does not supercede the Speed Dial which is your Current Speed.

Except it does for the 3 other references out of 4 made to "current speed" in the RRG. You know, those laid down by someone's post you didn't read.

Step 4: Repeat Step 1 but you only use your Speed 1 part of the speed chart (current speed does not change)

Except you don't for thrust control malfunction? So you do pick two columns from the speed chart to resolve the same step. And if they (un)fortunately happen to be the same, you do resolve the crit card. And we're back to square 1, and how silly that is.

Thanks for laying out everything in order.

Here let's make this dead straight simple.

Does your speed dial change at any point?

Dude, you just don't want to understand the point several of us are making, which is that the current speed = dial dogma is flawed in that particular situation.

Everybody here understood your stance on the matter on page 1.

It is not flawed because your "theory" creates illegal game states during a ram.

What is easier to believe, that FFG is going to allow an illegal game state or that you guys are over thinking things worse than a guy making his way through Nuke school?

Case in point.